RED ALERT: FSA & BOE fiddle while Rome burns.

[crash3903]

And I think the banks are unlikely to be successful.

 

A grand assumption - based on what?

[Guest Wild Billy]

To conclude..........

 

Wild Billy - your opinion as to what will happen on the test case. Banks win, OFT win, compromise deal?? be interested (in no more than 200 words!!) what is going to happen.

 

My opinion based on my best guess based on the evidence.

 

Round one- The OFT wins the argument that the UTCCRs apply.

 

Round two- Not sure this is as clear but bank charges will be reduced. Will it be £2.50? Seriously doubt it.

 

I'd guess you're looking at anything between 2009-2011 for a resolution though as it will depend on appeals.

[richwhit1]

Go on Wlld Billy - your posts and opinions - I think - are very informative BUT what will happen ????

[alecmac18]

Sigh......Don't give up do ya..........who's board and lonely now? haha

 

So quickly.....

 

Cant be bothered with the quote function

 

"The OFT taking the case was the worse possible outcome?"

 

Yes....I've explained why.....If you think that when the banks lose they will simply dump the money in people's accounts then you are mistaken. They will still have to claim.

 

"And it's a terrible thing to set legal precedent and put this matter to bed once and for all?"

 

They are not settling anything once and for all.....if you'd been on CAG for a while you would know that there are numerous issues that have not been included and may/or may not be argued and/or settled.

 

 

You love SKY don't you?

 

 

"Would stopping bank charges have a positive impact on the wider economy?"

 

A: I do and you dont - Iguess we agree to disagree. But you're still wrong. Take a deep breath and think about it.

 

"Would people spend the money instead of saving it or paying bills?"

 

A: Might help the banks recapitalise. And knowing people who've had a lot of charges I guess they would simply pay their bills.....not a lot left to save with banks staeling from you.

 

 

 

"How are inflation figures manipulated? Tell me. It's a bold statement that has no evidence to support it."

 

Bold indeed. CPI today was 2.1%. Increase in Gas and electric was 17% go figure.

 

 

"You're wrong. On all counts. I don't work for any bank, the OFT, FSA or anything similar. And I think the banks are unlikely to be successful."

 

Okay. Okay........

 

 

 

Still fact and not fiction I'm afraid. I dont agree with your love of the OFT's 18 month case. Its the FSA's job. In fact the OFT should have all its consumer credit powers stripped from it and probably will when this is all over.

 

The OFT test case has been a disgrace. They would have been better to stay out of it. It has caused millions of claims to be put on hold while giving the banks a license to steal. This is a fact.

 

Another fact: If you think that continuing to levy bank charges won't have wider economic implications.....regardle ss of what those implications might be then you are sadly mistaken.

[richwhit1]

Sorry Billy - my post delivered after yours - ignore my last

[Wensley]

Alec I agree with you on one point, not that i can prove it is true - 'the amount of disposable cash available to people is at an all time low' - ...and why would that be? - tax at an all time high, you have only to thank nu labour and their not so prudent chancellor / pm.

I'm not so keen though on your doom and gloom predictions about economic armageddon. Why are some people obsessed about talking this country into a resession. I know things are shaky at the moment but pleaaaassse quote some balanced articles and have an reasoned and informed debate.

As for the test case - i've no idea what will happen, im not ruling out some announcement or 11th hour deal at some stage, strange things do happen. Id like to think it will be settled sooner rather than later as i do have several thousand riding on a positive outcome, but i dont think that its gonna be resolved quickly.

[Guest Wild Billy]

"A lot of people post excessively on message boards because they are lonely or bored; they just need the feeling of importance."

 

Unlike your good self of course.

 

Wild Billy: 62 posts since September 2006

 

Alecmac18: 385 posts since August 2007.

[alecmac18]

Apathy Billy. Its called Apathy.

[crash3903]

Wild Billy: 62 posts since September 2006

 

63 actually

 

[Wensley]

thanks wild billy for that flip side of the debate - much needed to remind us of reality.

As for SCS - i remember the likes of them, and DFS getting profit warnings in years gone by. Its a saturated business - you dont need a sofa every year. It doesnt help that they stand for Sh*t Cr*p Sofas and Dear Feking Suites!

And Sky - well any one who does cancel their subscription is likely to face such constant sales calls begging them to come back for a fraction of the fee that i bet most of them do so.

[freakyleaky]

Scarey to think of a meltdown. I hope you are wrong.

[BigNick2]

Been reading a few of your posts alec, like em. Very similair to a few thoughts, and discussions, Ive had.

 

Latest info Ive seen is average DI after tax, bills is £500/month/family, so a couple hundred pound in charges IS going to have a fair impact on the economy, whatever other posters may say.

 

Another point to add into the equation which I havent seen you mention yet, food prices rising at the fastest pace since records began.

 

I wonder how many families are going to be finding themselves literally going hungry because of these charges in the near future.

[SL56]

Lets not forget fuel costs too!! Oil, Gas, Electric. Alastair Darling has already seen fit to request a meeting with OfGEM because of the recent price hikes

[bloomingflower]

Hi all

 

I totally agree with the above posts,especially the first one! the FSA need to step-up and step in and get it sorted out now!!

 

I have a partner who works full -time, plus he works part-time in the evenings, we have two young daughters(we also have a 19 yr old son,who has left home to live with his girlfreind) and we are both recieving working tax credit and child tax credit. We can speak from experience as we are already going into meltdown with regards to our financial situation.

my partner cannot work anymore hours than he is already doing to compensate for the loss caused by these diabolical bank charges,as well as trying to keep up paying the bills, utilities and the cost of living.....

 

.... and before anyone says to us to "cut down on luxuries" ,thats the point,we dont really have any!! in all the 20yrs me and my partner have been together,we have never been on a proper family holiday, my partner doesnt smoke or drink,we dont go out anywhere as a couple(whether its a pub or club,and would most probably take our daughters to the cinema once in a blue moon, if were are lucky!

 

So,we live within our means,not beyond.. and its not our cost of living that makes us go overdrawn,its those damn charges that do it..

 

and its those same charges that are the cause of us going further and further into debt, it spirals out of control so much that you are forced to rob Paul to pay Peter one month and rob Peter to pay Paul another month, it becomes a way of life, to which there is no turning back, no matter how much you tightly budget from month to month, and there is only so much you can cut back on, if anything, you need the basic essentials to live on,these are a must, especially when you have kids ie,food, electric,clothing, school uniform, etc... the list can go on..

 

Unfortunately,as consumers,we have to have a bank account,we have no choice, as long gone are the days where we used to handle cash for a lot of things,,but now everything is more or less computerised and debited automatically and we are paying a high price for the pleasure.

 

So FSA/OFT, open your eyes and do what you have gotta do, and get on with it, for all our sakes.. cos you lot know damn well that it doesnt really cost the banks £30-39 in overdraft charges..

 

B.flower x

[johnnyjoeflyer]

Have just noted that reportedly FSA chairman Sir Callum McCarthy has been forced out.

In the City, there have been rumours that the likely successor would be James Crosby, a former chief executive of HBOS, the big bank – who is currently deputy chairman of the FSA.

 

What hope is there when they employ individuals who have a big interest in the financial institution such as HBOS, (yes he may be former ceo but I bet he still has a substantial share portfolio) the very bank that so many people are attempting to claim back unlawful charges from.

How many other 'insiders' do banks have in the FSA and other organisations that purport to represent the consumer, is it any wonder these organisations are not working more effectively for us.

 

If they are going to replace FSA employees then from the chairman downwards they should be made to declare publicly any interest that they have in the banking industry. An informed view and decision about their suitablility and impartiality in that role can then be made.

[alecmac18]

You're right....practically everyone who works at the FSA has at some point worked at some kind of bank or insurance company. There are pros and cons....at least they understand the system......but they are in a position where they can easily be swayed by the banks to the detriment of consumers. Usually not so much by the shares they hold but by the contacts they already have. Another big problem at the FSA is one of staff retention.......they have a bloddy hard time keeping anyone there past 2 years or so....its a constant issue.

 

Its not so bad that James Crosby is in the running......he understands retail banking and he will at least understand that bank charges are now on their way out and the old order needs to change. Having said that if he still has any shareholdings (directly held) with any of the banks than that is going to be a blatent conflict of interest.

 

This is the thing......they know that Overdraft charges need to end but its a bit like weaning an addict off crack. Obviously I favour a cold hard shock approach....its looks like the FSA is going for the head in the sand approach.

[johnnyjoeflyer]

Whats the current remuneration for this role at the FSA, maybe we should apply!!!!!. I would certainly be happy staying there for more than 2 years if the salary is 6 figure. Think of all the fun to be had in not cooperating with banks, not being swayed and generally making their lives a misery. Some bias in favour of the consumer is long overdue within these organisations.

Banks have had it their own way far, far to long.

[alecmac18]

You'll get no less than £30-40k starting. Do it!! But you'll need to go in quietly and work your way up to get anything changed. In general the larger the organistation - the more distain they have for the FSA. Your typical small firm is very scared of the FSA.......big banks consider them more of a nuisance. This is what needs to be changed me thinks. Whopping great big fines as a percentage of turnover might kick things in the right direction.

[alecmac18]

To be fair.....the FSA consumer division is ok - they have sounded the alarm months ago and warned of the risks involved......its just that they are a bit lower down the pecking order internally. The other problem is that the FSA does not currently (strictly speaking) regulate bank current accounts - this will likely change - I also think that it is highly likely that the OFT will lose its consumer credit powers in due course. Then we'll really know who to blame (one reason the FSA is a bit reluctant to take on all these new powers). However - offer them a bigger budget and they'll come round to the idea.

 

One really good thing to come out of this case will be the disappearence of Angela Knight and the volunatry British Bankers Association. They'll be gone over the next few years.

[Conniff]

~And the Government does not care either.

 

Asked on Wednesday (16th) in Prime Ministers Questions if he was worried about the number of repossesions taking place and the predicted massive increase in the number this year, Gordon Brown said "We have to keep the economy on track".

In English that says - I don't give a monkeys.

[alecmac18]

"Gordon Brown said "We have to keep the economy on track".

In English that says - I don't give a monkeys."

 

 

We'll soon see......whatever Gordon thinks, he's soon going to have another lobbey group against bank charges....and one powerful enough to pressure the FSA to finish up. I don't think people quite realise yet the effect that OD charges have on the transfer of money to firms through the direct debit system. Its like a bouncing ball. If your monthly revenue for your utility firm, phone comp or heaven forbid to the council.....when these DD's start bouncing as a result of bank charges you'll see a shift in pace as the OFT and FSA break a sweat........there's no more powerful lobbey group than other big businesses.

 

Additionally......if there is too much perception that direct debits are no longer the best way to pay bills then banks will have bigger problems to deal with.......given to choice between keping charges and maintaining the integrity of direct debits banks will pick the second option every time. Fractional reserve banking ensures they have no choice.

 

The banks PR machine may have bought them six months or so.......but I think their luck is about to run out.....and not a moment too soon.

 

 

Oh yeah........and dont forget this is basically an election year........bank charges are definatly a political issue......the OFT is a government body..............I dobut we'll go into an election with millions of angery claimants.

[freakyleaky]

Thanks for the link Alec.

[alecmac18]

6.9 Million unpaid household bills...........over the last six months....now tell me agian......when did claims stop? End Aug 2007.......and since then we have a big rise in late payments.............

 

 

"The results have been echoed by a separate study from MoneyExpert.com which found that an estimated 6.9 million household bills were being either unpaid or paid late over the last six month period."

 

Credit card dependency energy price hikes and unpaid bills 2008 looks grim for UK consumers

[alecmac18]

And as people stop buying stuff.........business to business payments start to dry up as well.

 

Fewer late payers rack up more debts :: Freelance UK

 

Cause and effect........bank charges stop the flow of money through the economy at source. The knock on economic effect is 10x what the value of the actual charges is.

 

Ironically this will hurt banks more than simply refunding and halting charges.

[alecmac18]

UK Population: 60,776,238

 

 

Unpaid bills to date: 6.9 million.

 

If bank charges continue I'm not sure 25% unpaids is so far off the mark:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general/126930-if-oft-test-case.html

Edit: Average household size iin the UK is 2.36 people

 

Census 2001 - Commentaries - People and their homes in England and Wales

 

This means that we could be getting closer to hitting the 25% mark than we think!