problem with housemate refusing to leave

[drjazzz]

Hi,

 

This is a problem I haven't really come across before, and neither had the guy on Community Legal Services I spoke to!

 

I've been living a while with a girl who has always had problems and difficult behaviours but since we renewed our contract with a third new tenant she's just become impossible, stealing food, not doing any housework, using my phone without permission, being short of the money for bills (and said phone bill) etc etc

 

We asked her to leave a week ago giving her a month (we have six months or so left on the contract)

 

She has dug her heels in saying that she had no intention of going, or if she was, it was at her convenience. And when she came back drunk on Tuesday night she subjected us to three hours' of harassment chasing us around the house and arguing - quite crazy (she has been receiving treatment for depression).

 

My question is this - I know any of us can give two months' notice to end the tenancy - and that then holds for all. But we'd like her out sooner than that, especially as we have two friends looking for places to live right now. We now have the landlord on our side, so it is possible for any of us to simply ask to be released from the contract at the end of this rent period? And then for the landlord to agree, and then that would hold for all?

[gizmo111]

Some of the tenant experts will be along soon, but my first thought is whose name is the tenancy in?

And if the problem has been ongoing did you renew knowing her mental health problems?

Has she been receiving help?

Has she any family/friends to support her?

How bad is her chasing you around? Is it bad enough for police intervention? Is she a danger to you/housemates or herself?

 

What outcome are you looking for?

[MilkTrayMan]

Hello drjazzz!

 

Just to clarify one or two things 1st...

 

Is this girl the one referred to in a previous Thread of yours?...

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt/86900-housemate-needs-some-help.html

 

Have U ever had any romantic relationship with this girl?

What is the sex of this NEW 3rd sharing tenant?

Are U romantical involved with this 3rd tenant?

 

I don't mean to be too personal, am just trying to understand the underlying reasons behind the breakdown of the house/flat demographic relationships.

 

At 1st glance I would assume that she saw U as her saviour financially/emotionally + her crutch during her toubled times??

 

Perhaps this NEW 3rd tenant has put the spoke into her dreams/aspirations about your friendship + has threatened the supporting relationship that U once had with her??

 

Her recent behaviour MAY be a reaction to this, especially if she is aware that both U + this 'upsurper' are conspiring to have her evicted etc.

She probably feels alienated + confused.

Her whole world is being turned upside down by the one person who she felt that she could rely on the most + she may be scared of what the future has in store for her??

 

Perhaps U could diffuse the current situation by talking to her, befriending her once again, involving her + reassuring her??

...U may find that she calms down a bit if she feels less threatened of the great unknown?!

 

If all this fails, instead of trying to have HER removed, maybe U, the NEW 3rd tenant + some of your other friends might want to consider living together elsewhere??

 

 

...

[MrShed]

When did you renew the contract, and for how long a fixed term? This question is absolutely key.

[drjazzz]

When did you renew the contract, and for how long a fixed term? This question is absolutely key.

 

We renewed on 6th June for a year. It's an assured shorthold tenancy. There is a break clause which would require 2 months' notice.

 

But my question surely would apply to any joint tenancy. Can an agreement be made to be released from the current contract by mutual consent without all tenants signing up? For my understanding is that one tenant will speak for all. e.g. with the notice to quit, if one tenant gives it, it holds for the others whatever they may wish.

[drjazzz]

Hello drjazzz!

 

Just to clarify one or two things 1st...

 

Is this girl the one referred to in a previous Thread of yours?...

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt/86900-housemate-needs-some-help.html

 

Have U ever had any romantic relationship with this girl?

What is the sex of this NEW 3rd sharing tenant?

Are U romantical involved with this 3rd tenant?

 

I don't mean to be too personal, am just trying to understand the underlying reasons behind the breakdown of the house/flat demographic relationships.

...

 

Yes it's the same housemate that I've tried to help with money issues

 

No, female, no. I'd be far more sensitive and less sure of myself if there were yesses there. As it is, I've done so much to look after this girl but now realise it was just effort down the drain, and this girl is a user who takes no responsibility for herself. There is something of the newer girl upsetting the order of how they were before by making me realise I didn't have to put up with a housemate who would steal my food, lie, do no housework at all, and demand that her broken stereo have pride of place in the living room, etc etc. it's a long story and I don't really want to bore the forum with it, I'd just like to know the legalities of it all

[drjazzz]

Some of the tenant experts will be along soon, but my first thought is whose name is the tenancy in?

And if the problem has been ongoing did you renew knowing her mental health problems?

Has she been receiving help?

Has she any family/friends to support her?

How bad is her chasing you around? Is it bad enough for police intervention? Is she a danger to you/housemates or herself?

 

What outcome are you looking for?

 

It's a joint tenancy in our three names (no lead tenant). Yes I knew what she was like but was hoping she'd improve not get much worse. Plus I now see her behaviour differently as manipulative not just troubled. She has quite a few friends - she won't be homeless.

 

We very nearly called the police on the night in question. But that's been the only occasion for that and she seems to have calmed down since. I do still care about her - I don't want her to lose her job. I don't actually believe she is a danger to herself or others. At least I hope not.

[MrShed]

Your question does not apply to any joint tenancy. In order to terminate a joint tenancy in a FIXED TERM, you must ALL give notice. It is only periodic tenancies that are ended by one tenant giving notice. This obviously applies, as you cannot do what you are saying. You would need the person in question to agree to the giving of notice.

[drjazzz]

Your question does not apply to any joint tenancy. In order to terminate a joint tenancy in a FIXED TERM, you must ALL give notice. It is only periodic tenancies that are ended by one tenant giving notice. This obviously applies, as you cannot do what you are saying. You would need the person in question to agree to the giving of notice.

 

Are you sure about that? It's not the advice I've received so far.

 

I am a joint tenant

 

If you are a joint tenant then you have the right to stay in your home. The other joint tenant has the same rights as you to stay in the home. Remember, if one joint tenant gives the correct notice to your landlord then the tenancy will most likely end for both of you, so if you think you want to stay in the property it is best to prevent this from happening.

 

Shelter: I am living with someone (cohabiting)

[MrShed]

Absolutely 100%.

[MrShed]

The vast majority of resources on this matter are regarding notice given in periodic tenancies. This is because there is usually no reason to give notice during the fixed term tenancy, as you are not entitled to leave prior to the end of the tenancy anyway, and you can leave at the end of the fixed term without giving notice. Therefore, the question of notice does not come into it, but the question of surrender of the tenancy does(which we are wrongly discussing as notice). The surrender of a tenancy requires the agreement of ALL parties.

 

If you want to confirm, contact PainSmith solicitors EDITED. They should be able to confirm this FOC, and are well respected solicitors in the field. They used to host an excellent document about joint tenancies, of which this was one. Unfortunately they have stopped hosting it on their site for some reason.

[drjazzz]

thanks Mr S. It seems you are right. I've been misadvised on this question by the CAB.

[MrShed]

No problem jazz. Hope you manage to resolve the issue!!

[drjazzz]

update

 

 

Well turns out we got two months' notice - the landlord has asked us to leave!

 

The situation with the problem housemate just became intolerable. At the point where she started making threats to damage life and our property, I called the police and she was taken away for the night (they would have taken her to hospital to be assessed but there was an incident there so she was left with a friend). The police tacitly advised us that changing the locks wouldn't be a bad idea and we could call them if there was further trouble.

 

So, next day we go to the agents and their maintenance guy changes the lock for us. All well, and things turn out to be fine with the problem housemate as she now finds a place and comes around to pack up her stuff, and starts behaving reasonably.

 

However in the middle of it the management of the agency decide had decided that the situation was out of their control and they had to give notice!

 

We are very upset about this and are planning to appeal to the landlord directly if they will not withdraw it. Do we have a possible legal case? And if we stood our ground until told to leave by a court, how long would we have left?

[flying_visitor]

Is it legal to lock someone out of their own home? I don't think you had a right to change the locks at all particularly if it isn't your house and the woman has joint tenant status with you.

[MrShed]

You have no legal case unfortunately, as they are within their rights to evict you with no reason provided it is outside of the fixed term. I would say that you probably have around 3-4 months after the service of a 2 month notice until you are forcibly evicted - although 3 months would be quick. Bear in mind taht you will become liable for costs if you remain at the property outside of the 2 month notice.

[drjazzz]

You have no legal case unfortunately, as they are within their rights to evict you with no reason provided it is outside of the fixed term. I would say that you probably have around 3-4 months after the service of a 2 month notice until you are forcibly evicted - although 3 months would be quick. Bear in mind taht you will become liable for costs if you remain at the property outside of the 2 month notice.

 

We are inside the fixed term, although IIRC there is a landlord's break clause in the contract which could apply.

 

May I ask Mr.S - would the landlord have messed up if they didn't sent the notice by recorded delivery, and it got lost in post perhaps?

[drjazzz]

Is it legal to lock someone out of their own home? I don't think you had a right to change the locks at all particularly if it isn't your house and the woman has joint tenant status with you.

 

The police (unofficially) suggested that it was not a black-and-white legal matter, and that if someone is making threats against life and property, you can rightfully take the necessary steps to protect yourself.

[MrShed]

The important questions:

 

- When was the notice served(ie date on the notice)

- What type of notice is it - Section 8 or Section 21

- When was the notice physically received

- When does the notice expire, and does it expire "on" or "after" said date

- On what date did you move in

- What was the length of the fixed term

 

These all need to be exact dates etc.

 

There may, depending on these answers, be a way around the S21 - ie it may have been served incorrectly.

 

However, not sending by registered post is NOT a way out - courts to not require proof of receipt, but instead proof of sending. This would include a witness to the item being sent, or proof of sending from the post office. The court tends not to accept the "I didnt receive it" argument - as you can imagine, they hear it all the time, and if they believed them all, the post office would have gone under!!!!!

[drjazzz]

HOUSING ACT 1988

 

Section 21(1)(b)

 

Assured Shorthold Tenancy : Notice to Require Possession

Fixed Term Tenancy

 

To: our names

Of: our address

 

From : Landlord's details

 

I give you notice that I require possession of the dwelling house known as address

 

After: 22nd March 2008

Dated: 22nd January 2008

 

Signed: agent for landlord + signature

 

Landlord's Agent Agent Details

 

 

 

Notes:

 

1. On or after the coming to an end of a fixed term assured shorthold tenancy, a court must make an order for the possession if the landlord has given a notice in this form.

 

2. When there are joint landlords, at least one of them must give notice.

 

3. The length of this notice must be at least two months, and the notice may be given before or on the day on which the fixed term comes to an end.

 

What to do if this notice is served on you

• This notice is the first step requiring you to give up possession of your home. You should read it very carefully.
  
• Your landlord cannot make you leave your home with out an order for possession issued by a court. By issuing this notice your landlord is informing you that he intends to seek such an order. If you are willing to give up possession without a court order, you should tell the person who signed this notice as soon as possible and say when you are prepared to leave.
  
• If you need advice about this notice, and what you should do about it, take it immediately to citizens advice bureau, a housing advice centre, a law centre or a solicitor.

________________________________________________________________

 

Certified as a true copy of the notice that I, agents details, served on the tenant by registered post on 22nd January 2008

 

Signed signature Name agent's name

Witness signature Name witness name

[drjazzz]

I originally moved in on the 6th June 2006, for a fixed term of one year. We renewed on the 6th June 2007, with a change of one tenant, for another year, same rent. The deposits held are the ones we gave in 2006.

 

We received the notice (in an envelope addressed to 'the occupier', first class postage - not recorded) on the 24th January.

[MrShed]

I assume you have a joint tenancy between all tenants? Therefore when you "renewed", it wasnt really a renewal, as one of the tenants was new?

[drjazzz]

I assume you have a joint tenancy between all tenants? Therefore when you "renewed", it wasnt really a renewal, as one of the tenants was new?

 

I suppose, we signed a fresh contract, but there was no inventory taken/deposits handed back, when we move out they'll take an inventory and assess any change from when we first moved in in 2006. It's all joint tenancy.

[MrShed]

In that case, they cannot evict until the end of the fixed term. Therefore the notice they have served is invalid anyway.

[drjazzz]

Are you sure? I'd love it to be true! But there is a clause in the contract something like this, does it not matter?

 

Landlord's Break Clause

 

The Landlord may bring the tenancy to an end at any time before the expiry of the fixed term (but not within six months of the commencement date) by giving to the Tenant at least two months' written Notice stating that the Landlord requires possession of the property. A Notice under section 21 of the Housing Act 1988 will suffice to implement this sub-clause

 

(this was from the 2006 contract, but am sure the 2007 which I cannot find right now is very similiar)