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Drove away before ticket was served


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Nipped into a shop for a minute, and came back out to see a council warden, hovering over my car. I was in a hurry anyway, and just said ok..i'm off..No ticket was served, she wasnt attempting to put one on the car, or even engage me, such as looking at me, or saying hold on.

 

GOt a letter now saying i havent paid the ticket i never got, and so the fee charge is double.

 

Am i under a legal obligation to presume that a parking warden, hovering around my car is giving me a ticket ?

 

Do i have to hang about for five minutes, while they sort themselves out and serve it ?

 

Is the onus is on me to engage them in conversation or eye contact to determine if they are going to serve me or not ?

Thanks to action group

 

Harris V abbey : settled

 

Glasgow Council Parking appeal won

 

Harris vs Santander: BCOB threats below had them refund charges, donate compensation to charity and alter branch policy.

 

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B_wcM5ZfmEE5TjRiU0JBM0xZYzQ/edit?pli=1

 

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If by Council warden, you mean Parking Attendant, then the PCN must be affixed to the vehicle or given to the driver.

 

If you drove off, then this is known as a driveaway and the PCN is void.

 

The problem is that the PA will have logged that the ticket was properly issued and therefore the Council will not budge. You will have to convince the Adjudicator that the PCN was not issued.

 

I presume that your 'letter' is, in fact, a Notice to Owner. You need to respond to this by appealing.

 

Scan, wash personal detail and post the NtO here so that we can ascertain if other mistakes have been made.

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If by Council warden, you mean Parking Attendant, then the PCN must be affixed to the vehicle or given to the driver.

If you drove off, then this is known as a driveaway and the PCN is void.

 

 

 

 

Scan, wash personal detail and post the NtO here so that we can ascertain if other mistakes have been made.

 

 

Front of notice

 

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l304/sprinklehopper/frontPCN.jpg

 

Back of notice

 

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l304/sprinklehopper/back-PCN.jpg

 

I'm not sure whether to tell them i drove away having no engagement with the PCN or write a letter, saying that i have never recieved any parking ticket.

Thanks to action group

 

Harris V abbey : settled

 

Glasgow Council Parking appeal won

 

Harris vs Santander: BCOB threats below had them refund charges, donate compensation to charity and alter branch policy.

 

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B_wcM5ZfmEE5TjRiU0JBM0xZYzQ/edit?pli=1

 

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i guess the ruling you are referring to is this

 

'Effectively I am asked to rewrite the Code and to issue guidance to adjudicators in the future that their way of interpreting section 5(1) must change. I have considered this carefully. Parking regulations and their enforcement affect a vast number of the citizens of London, and of course, picking up what I was informed of earlier, most of the rest of the country as well. All currently understand that if you drive away before a ticket is actually put on the windscreen, through the window of your car or into your hands, and you have not inflicted violence or the threat of violence on the attendant, effectively you have, in spite of contravening the parking regulations, got away with it. That understanding seems to me to be so well-established that now is not the time for the court to make a declaration which reverses it: in particular, as I made plain when I went through the chronology, bearing in mind that a week after leave was given to bring these judicial review proceedings, the claimant seems to have been supporting the exact opposite stance to the one currently claimed. Had the matter been litigated soon after the passage of the Act it may be that there would have been a different result.'

 

"rest of the country" this applies to england only ?

Thanks to action group

 

Harris V abbey : settled

 

Glasgow Council Parking appeal won

 

Harris vs Santander: BCOB threats below had them refund charges, donate compensation to charity and alter branch policy.

 

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B_wcM5ZfmEE5TjRiU0JBM0xZYzQ/edit?pli=1

 

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I'm not sure whether to tell them i drove away having no engagement with the PCN or write a letter, saying that i have never recieved any parking ticket.

 

Your evidence is that you saw the PA paying attention to your vehicle and that you drove away before the ticket was served having told the PA that you were going. That is valuable evidence, use it. It is pretty much common practice for PAs to take a photo of the PCN fixed to the car, clearly they won't have one unless something unsavoury has gone on.

********************************************

Nothing in this post constitutes "advice" which I may not, in any event, be qualified to provide.

The only interpretation permitted on this post (or any others I may have made) is that this is what I would personally consider doing in the circumstances discussed. Each and every reader of this post or any other I may have made must take responsibility for forming their own view and making their own decision.

I receive an unwieldy number of private messages. I am happy to respond to messages posted on open forum but am unable to respond to private messages, seeking advice, when the substance of that message should properly be on the open forum.

Many thanks for your assistance and understanding on this.

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If it was a proper Traffic Warden, or someone (eg PCSO) acting with Traffic Warden powers, then driving off will not stop service - however, if nothing was received through the post until the NTO (which I assume is what you got) then it does indeed sound like a PA.

 

Lack of photographic evidence will be useful but not entirely conclusive, as they could easily state that you came back during the service, and that they handed you the ticket instead - and if that's what their notes say, and the adjudicator believes them over you, then you are stuffed.

 

I would be looking for other ways to appeal (technicalities, if you like). You've already posted the NTO (which is good) so hopefully something can be found on there...

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If it was a proper Traffic Warden, or someone (eg PCSO) acting with Traffic Warden powers, then driving off will not stop service - however, if nothing was received through the post until the NTO (which I assume is what you got) then it does indeed sound like a PA.

 

 

Sorry, no.

 

Only PA's can issue PCNs which lead to an NtO when unpaid.

 

Police/PCSO/Traffic Warden cam only issue FPNs, which are followed up through Magistrates' Court. These can be posted, and are aimed at the driver, not the owner.

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Sorry, no.

 

Only PA's can issue PCNs which lead to an NtO when unpaid.

 

Police/PCSO/Traffic Warden cam only issue FPNs, which are followed up through Magistrates' Court. These can be posted, and are aimed at the driver, not the owner.

 

Apologies - but, in this case, PCN/FPN makes no difference - as it must be a PCN which was served. I just wanted to make the point that certain 'Issuing Authorities' aren't prevented from serving their 'tickets' by driving off. Sorry for the confusion - I do agree that Police/TW etc issue FPN - and I can see that it looks like I suggested that a TW could serve a PCN.

 

I did follow up by saying:

 

if nothing was received through the post until the NTO (which I assume is what you got) then it does indeed sound like a PA.

 

By which I meant, if you received an NTO, that means you must have been served (or claimed to have been served) a PCN not an FPN, because I do know that an FPN isn't followed by an NTO... :rolleyes:

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Sorry Jampot, perhaps I wasn't clear.

 

A non-CCTV PCN is voided by drive off prior to its issue. Issue means attached to the vehicle or given to the driver, (unless physically prevented by violence or threat of violence)/

 

An FPN can always follow in the post as the requirements for issue are not the same

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Sorry Jampot, perhaps I wasn't clear.

 

A non-CCTV PCN is voided by drive off prior to its issue. Issue means attached to the vehicle or given to the driver, (unless physically prevented by violence or threat of violence)/

 

An FPN can always follow in the post as the requirements for issue are not the same

 

Yes, that's what I was saying. I didn't expressly mention FPN in my post, but indirectly alluded to the fact that he must have been issued a PCN (and not anything else) since it was followed by an NTO!

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I sent this .

 

 

The parking shop

Glasgow City Council

PO Box 25068

GLASGOW

G1 1ZE

 

Dear sir/madam

 

 

At at the date and time, of the contravention highlighted in the NTO, I received no PCN, and have independent witnesses for this. Please check the records of your PA.

 

Although there is no representation category for non PCN issue in the NTO, I appeal this £60 full charge. I understand for the full rate to happen, I should first be served either a 14 day PCN or FPN at the reduced rate of £30.

 

Yours truly,

Thanks to action group

 

Harris V abbey : settled

 

Glasgow Council Parking appeal won

 

Harris vs Santander: BCOB threats below had them refund charges, donate compensation to charity and alter branch policy.

 

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B_wcM5ZfmEE5TjRiU0JBM0xZYzQ/edit?pli=1

 

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What is ?

1/ PNC

2/NTO

3/PA

4/NTO

5/PCOS

6/FPN

7/TW

RATHER RUDE TO USE ABBREVIATIONS (LAZY)

 

Not as rude as shouting! (Using capitals - and as for the red, heavy weight text. . . )

 

There are polite ways to ask and there's your way.

 

In the interests of assisting others who may wish to know:

 

1/ PNC = Police National Computer

2/ NTO = Notice to Owner

3/ PA = Parking Attendant

4/ NTO = See no 2 above

5/ PCOS = Police Community Support Officer

6/ FPN = Fixed Penalty Notice

7/ TW = Traffic Warden

 

And before you ask in what circumstances and under what authority they are used, having called people who use them lazy could I suggest that it may be a good idea to do your own research.

********************************************

Nothing in this post constitutes "advice" which I may not, in any event, be qualified to provide.

The only interpretation permitted on this post (or any others I may have made) is that this is what I would personally consider doing in the circumstances discussed. Each and every reader of this post or any other I may have made must take responsibility for forming their own view and making their own decision.

I receive an unwieldy number of private messages. I am happy to respond to messages posted on open forum but am unable to respond to private messages, seeking advice, when the substance of that message should properly be on the open forum.

Many thanks for your assistance and understanding on this.

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What is ?

 

1/ PNC

2/NTO

3/PA

4/NTO

5/PCOS

6/FPN

7/TW

 

RATHER RUDE TO USE ABBREVIATIONS (LAZY)

 

What are you going on about? Some of these are not only well known abbreviations, but are also used by the issuing party, so could easily be described as a 'correct' name for the document (eg PCN, NTO).

 

Besides, it is standard practice to refer to these things using initials. If you don't like it, go and read something else.

 

The OP (Original Poster, for anyone too lazy to check definitions themselves) seems quite happy with the information being given, so can I kindly suggest you take your bold red text and capital letters elsewhere, and come back when you have something to add to the discussion?

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There is very clear case law on the matter of driving away BEFORE a ticket is fixed to your vehicle .

 

The following link is from the Daily Mail:

 

Avoid a parking ticket - just by driving away | the Daily Mail

 

Does not apply to scotland

Thanks to action group

 

Harris V abbey : settled

 

Glasgow Council Parking appeal won

 

Harris vs Santander: BCOB threats below had them refund charges, donate compensation to charity and alter branch policy.

 

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B_wcM5ZfmEE5TjRiU0JBM0xZYzQ/edit?pli=1

 

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Does not apply to scotland

 

Why does it not apply to Scotland?

 

The RTA1991 applies in exactly the same way .

 

Whilst an English High Court case does not set precedent in Scotland, it remains "highly persuasive".

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  • 1 month later...

This is following on from the previous thread

 

 

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/parking-traffic-offences/126014-drove-away-before-ticket.html

 

From that i sent an appeal letter where i ask them to look in the parking attendants notes to see the ticket was never fixed to the car.

 

REPLY

 

"The issuing parking attendents notes confirm the penalty charge notice was affixed to the vehicle in the correct manner at the time of issue"

 

Which is an outright lie from the PA. I now have to submit an appeal to the parking tribunal, and was wondering what to do. The general knowledge its ok to drive away from a ticket, due to the court ruling.

 

 

Seeing as i am accusing her of lying, it would be reasonable for me to request if she has been accused in previous appeals and tribunals of a similiar charge of lying about placing tickets. Is there a legal means which i can ask for this information ?

 

..

Thanks to action group

 

Harris V abbey : settled

 

Glasgow Council Parking appeal won

 

Harris vs Santander: BCOB threats below had them refund charges, donate compensation to charity and alter branch policy.

 

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B_wcM5ZfmEE5TjRiU0JBM0xZYzQ/edit?pli=1

 

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2 threads merged. Please stick to one thread per topic.

HAVE YOU BEEN TREATED UNFAIRLY BY CREDITORS OR DCA's?

 

BEWARE OF CLAIMS MANAGEMENT COMPANIES OFFERING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS.

 

 

Please note opinions given by rory32 are offered informally as a lay-person in good faith based on personal experience. For legal advice, you must always consult a registered and insured lawyer.

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I would be inclined just to stick to your case. Present your witness and let your evidence speak for itself.

 

NPAS state on their website "It is a criminal offence to “knowingly and wilfully” make an untrue statement in connection with an appeal to the Independent Adjudicator and at other stages in the enforcement process. Persons committing such offences risk conviction and a fine. "

 

I know NPAS is for England and Wales but I suspect that the same or similar will apply in Scotland. Now the PA has committed herself with a false statement then I suspect you can make a formal complaint.

 

You can probably get a copy of the rules and find out your other queries by contacting the appeals service direct.

 

Scottish Parking Appeals Service

J Floor

Argyle House

3 Lady Lawson Street

Edinburgh

EH3 9TH

Tel. 0131 221 0409

Fax. 0131 229 7189

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This does not constitute legal advice and is not represented as a substitute for legal advice from an appropriately qualified person or firm.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

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  • 1 month later...

I have just got my pre-appeal summary from the council which will go the parking appeal tribunal. On it the Parking attendent has written ticket was fixed to vehicle.. "driver threw ticket away".

 

Either somebody else came up to the car and threw it away in a fit of indignance, or the parking attendent got miffed at drive offs enough to lie, and is reasonably confident she can do get away with doing so.

 

1. If she saw me throw the ticket away, i presume she could give a description of things like my hair, height, age and skin colour to the tribunal. My memory is she did not even lift her head to look at me, from the time i came out the shop to getting in the car.

 

2. If someone throws a ticket away, this is a document she should be obliged to pick up as evidence.

 

3. I presume she has a sequence of tickets for that day and would like to see that there is a gap between whoever got the previous and next one to me.

 

In any case i was wondering my legal position, and what this appeal tribunal is good for. I understand i can have witnesses but need to leave any questioning of the attendent till after my tribunal, in other words its one way, closed. The tribunal wil only question an attendent if there is a clear pattern of similiar incidents.

 

Anyway if feel quite strongly, and was wondering if anybody knew how i could force the attendent to answer these questions i brought up ?

 

//

Thanks to action group

 

Harris V abbey : settled

 

Glasgow Council Parking appeal won

 

Harris vs Santander: BCOB threats below had them refund charges, donate compensation to charity and alter branch policy.

 

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B_wcM5ZfmEE5TjRiU0JBM0xZYzQ/edit?pli=1

 

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2. If someone throws a ticket away, this is a document she should pick be obliged to pick up as evidence.//

 

Then the motorist could claim that they where prevented from retreiving the PCN and missed out on the discount period etc. Many motorists will throw away a ticket in disgust then realise it will cost them more and return to look for it.

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Then the motorist could claim that they where prevented from retreiving the PCN and missed out on the discount period etc. Many motorists will throw away a ticket in disgust then realise it will cost them more and return to look for it.

 

I want her to answer the question why she didnt pick up the ticket, as i'm presuming laziness on her part, in that she did not even bother to write the ticket. She never issued a ticket, because she was still hovering over my car when i drove away.

 

So what can she do, write a ticket, then what ? Would she keep it in her pocket till she got somewhere private ?

 

I'm curious at what a P.A. on her own would do in such a scenario. She cant be seen in public to throw one away, so she has to keep it in her pocket at least till she gets back to base.

 

To have the confidence to go this far, blatantly lie about issued tickets, kind of tells me that these PA's have faced drive aways, and come up with a solution which not only involves knowing they can get away with fibs regarding the incident, but also getting away with either lying about issuing tickets, or issuing them, keeping them and disposing of them later, which i would think needs some kind of collusion back at the PA base.

 

 

 

..

Thanks to action group

 

Harris V abbey : settled

 

Glasgow Council Parking appeal won

 

Harris vs Santander: BCOB threats below had them refund charges, donate compensation to charity and alter branch policy.

 

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B_wcM5ZfmEE5TjRiU0JBM0xZYzQ/edit?pli=1

 

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BTW ..this incident occured in shawlands, Glasgow. If anybody else has faced similiar problems in glasgow please post..

Thanks to action group

 

Harris V abbey : settled

 

Glasgow Council Parking appeal won

 

Harris vs Santander: BCOB threats below had them refund charges, donate compensation to charity and alter branch policy.

 

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B_wcM5ZfmEE5TjRiU0JBM0xZYzQ/edit?pli=1

 

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