Sacked 4 Yrs Ago-should I Have Had Legal Help/offer From Union?

[craigten]

Hi there,

i was sacked about 4 years ago, i was in a union and they didn't help me fight my side but, instead, negotiated a pay-off of five hundred pounds! I had been at my then employers for 7 years (with no previous warnings, etc) when i had a 'disagreement' with a work colleague, my employers suspended me but left the other person work for a further 7 days whereupon they had time (and did so) to mingle/persuade the witnesses to our fall-out to change/alter their version of events! Now, i believe that my then employers realised this mistake and payed me off, but my question is should my union have got me independant legal advice? I thought this was the first thing that they should have done...or am i wrong?

All answers greatly appreciated!! Thankyou.

[Weird Al Yankovic]

Basic line I take with this type of thing-unions/union reps are useless.

 

You were a union member and no doubt your buddy you had a set-to with was also. How does that work for representation?

 

Not only that, your rep may have been just your regular work colleague. How does that make him/her Ironside?

 

4 years is too long in any case to seek some sort of outcome now.

 

In future, just get or look at your home insurance policy which should cover work disputes, represented by a lawyer.

[craigten]

Hi again, well actually the other person wasn't a union member and i didn't have a 'workforce' rep, i had an actual union rep come and 'support' me! My question is aimed at the negligence on the union side rather than at the employers (i believe you only have 3 months from the time of your dismissal to claim unfair dismissal anyway!!)

Anyone else any ideas please?

[shywazz]

The union at the time would have advised you the opitions available to you, but after 4 years you have more then likly just 4got, but saying that, you pay your mthly subs hence a rep should be available to discuss matters with, why did you accept the pay off of £500.00 if you thought you had being mis-treated ??

With 7 years service in the same company, i'm surprised you didnt know your rights at the time, you havn't given the reason for the events, but why didnt you fight them at the time, even if you felt unsure thats what the union are there for.... Blaming the union now after 4 years for not representing you correctly is somewhat far fetched...i'd just forget the matter and concentrate on your currant work...

[nickmcmechan]

i would agree, i doubt anyone would entertain your case after 4 years, the obvious question being why has it taken 4 years for it to become a problem

 

take the advice, drop it and move on...live in the future

[craigten]

Hi, both of those answers are useful, thankyou!

Ps- the reason i have only just realised is that i have only just has it bought to my attention that when you are sacked you are entitled to free legal advice, which i wasn't offered!

[hanzo]

I hear that some of the no-win-no-fee Solicitors firms specialising in equal pay are also pursuing Unions for poor advice given to their members. You could try phoning one of them. Remember it's not an employment tribunal matter, so 4 years may not be too late to lodge a claim- I don't know the time limit in England, but in Scotland it would be 5 years.

[advisee]

Depending on what you signed at the time, I'm just wondering whether you could have some CONTRACTUAL claim against your former employer that you could have dealt with in the small claims court/county court, where the time limit is six years, as opposed to the employment tribunal where the limit is three months?

 

Similarly action against the union for (I guess) breech of contract would also have with it a six year time-out period.

[craigten]

Hi, thanks for your great advice!

Does anyone have contact details of any no win-no fee solicitors that might specialise in these sort of matters?

What would anyone recommend is my first course of action as regards to the Union? Shall i send them a letter?

[craigten]

***BUMPY***

 

Hi, thanks for your great advice!

Does anyone have contact details of any no win-no fee solicitors that might specialise in these sort of matters?

What would anyone recommend is my first course of action as regards to the Union? Shall i send them a letter?

[caro]

What outcome are you looking for? Do you know that the union didn't seek legal advice? What training and experience did the rep have? What kind of extra legal advice might have helped you?

[MilkTrayMan]

...Does anyone have contact details of any no win-no fee solicitors that might specialise in these sort of matters?...

Unfortunately, I believe that it is TOTALLY against this Website's Rules to Post a link to a 'Commercial' Website...

Perhaps U could ask caro for clarification of this, if I am mistaken??...

[caro]

It is against the rules yes. I imagine a specialist solicitor would be rather expensive, but you may be able to get a free consultation with a local solicitor who could tell you if you have a case or not.

[shywazz]

As my 1st reply to the thread stated, the advice given at the time of you been dismissed, was most likly the best opitions for you at the time, if you want to persue a case against the union for not advicing you in the correct manner/way, my gut instinct tells me, there will be no case to answer....

If you are currantly in a union, some offer free solitors for half hr consultations, check with your union if you have legal plus services....

 

Ask yourself many qustions before following the route of trying to blame the union for you being dismissed, even if there gave differant advice would it have stopped you being dismissed, if the union thought for just one second that the company was dismissing you wrongly there would have fought the case with tooth and nail....if you in any way felt you were not been given good advice, you could have asked for another rep to represent you, your options at the time were unlimited....

You accepted a payoff of £500 which in itself indicates that the dismissal was justified....

Accept what has happened and move on with the next chapter in your life...Pointing blame at other people for something that u urself brought upon isnt going to get your old job back....

[caro]

I must admit that my gut reaction is the same. Some years ago I was bullied at work by my boss to the extent that I was signed off with occupational stress for 3 months, and I didn't get paid, but I couldn't face going back. IMO it was constructive dismissal and I found my union made no difference to the situation at all.

 

I couldn't face the thought of carrying on the fight at tribunal. I spoke to an employment lawyer sometime later (maybe 3 or 4 years) and it was too late for me to take action. Ironically my ex-boss was sacked a few years later for bullying, as it seems I was the first of her many victims.

 

I feel the union were ineffective, and that the company let me down too, but my rep took lots of advice from more qualified people in her genuine effort to help me. I've moved on now, and no-one will ever bully me again. I gained a lot of strength from that experience, but I'm sure had I gone to a tribunal in time I'd have won a lot of money. I've just moved on, and I think you should do the same.

[paulgmb]

Basic line I take with this type of thing-unions/union reps are useless.

 

This is total nonsense. Unions help their members every day in sometimes dire situations where not only are their jobs/income at stake but their reputations too. Far from being useless my own Union recovers well over £1 million per week on behalf of members who have been wronged by their employer. On top of that thousands of cases are resolved sucessfully and the member returns to their job.

 

You were a union member and no doubt your buddy you had a set-to with was also. How does that work for representation?

 

In cases such as this (which isn't the case here) the Union will provide different Rep's and endeavor to mediate and resolve the problem with the employer.

 

Not only that, your rep may have been just your regular work colleague. How does that make him/her Ironside?

 

Union Rep's undergo training to enable them to carry out their functions especially representation at disciplinary and grievance hearings and are supported by their full time officer colleagues and a team of employment specialist lawyers.

 

4 years is too long in any case to seek some sort of outcome now.

 

If the OP was unhappy with the advice received they had the right to seek advice from a higher authority in the Union, seek independent advice or not take the advice offered at all. Why would you wait 4 years to say you were unhappy?!

 

In future, just get or look at your home insurance policy which should cover work disputes, represented by a lawyer.

Only a Trade Union Representative or work colleague can accompany you to hearings so a lawyer or your house insurer would be useless unless you just want advise over the phone or wait until you are dismissed when they probably will be able to help you, after the event.

[MilkTrayMan]

...I found my union made no difference to the situation at all...I feel the union were ineffective...

A Union is ONLY as strong/effective as its Members!...

 

 

 

 

Ironically my ex-boss was sacked a few years later for bullying, as it seems I was the first of her many victims...

Women bullies are sooo much more vindictive than Men bullies...

[Weird Al Yankovic]

Only a Trade Union Representative or work colleague can accompany you to hearings so a lawyer or your house insurer would be useless unless you just want advise over the phone or wait until you are dismissed when they probably will be able to help you, after the event.

 

 

Depending on the contract of employment and the particular employer of course.

 

You have quoted what the basic rights are. Everyone is entitled to the minimum wage-that doesn't mean everyone just gets paid the minimum wage.

 

My last employment entitled me to be represented at a hearing by a 'friend,' outside of work, as long as they were a lay person.

 

How do you know the OP wasn't allowed this too?

 

In any case, I didn't even mention representation at a hearing, I simply gave the view that union reps in the work place, in my experience, are useless and are most likely to just be a work colleague with no legal training whatsoever on the subject of employment law, which is ever changing and can be very complicated.

 

Therefore, I would always suggest that rather than have the opinion of a union rep one just needs to phone your home insurers, as work place disputes are most probably covered under even a standard policy, and a DAS appointed fully qualified lawyer will give advice for free. (Minus the home insurance cost of course).

 

In one particular dispute at work I received a file from a DAS lawyer, after contacting them by phone and giving my circumstance, and I took a work colleague to the hearing and my employers were tied in knots and dismissed all allegations against me.

 

There is absolutely no reason not to seek professional help when a work related dispute arises and one has every right to do so.

 

Rather that than have some union rep, who may only have been voted into position unchallenged, and who has the ability of a wet cabbage.

[paulgmb]

I was stating what the legal entitlement is to be accompanied at formal disciplinary or grievance hearings. there may be exceptions but they are rare.

 

By all means quote your own personal experiences, but to state 'Unions/Union reps are useless..' is much like saying all employers are useless. There are good and bad in all walks of life, lets have a balanced opinion here.

 

I'm not sure if you have ever been a member of a Union and if so if you feel you were let down, but you would have had the right to complain or take it to a higher authority if you were unhappy. All I see from many of the threads I have seen here are employees who are up against it and wish (in many cases) they had the backing of a Union and would have joined one if there had been one in their workplace.

 

Union Rep's are elected by the members of the Union, whether they are challenged or not is irrelevent. The members have the same power to remove that person from office as do the senior officers.

 

Lastly I have yet to hear of any firm that has allowed an external Lawyer into a workplace disciplinary or grievance hearing.

[Weird Al Yankovic]

Hello

 

1 I have quoted 'in my experience.' This is a forum and comments are largely based upon opinions as well as facts.

 

My experience of union reps is based upon my own experience where my opinion is that they are usless and almost exclusively so. Your opinion is different and good for you.

 

This is as balanced as my opinion can be as it is influenced by my own experience. Should I therefore consider union reps to be fabulous just because I am told they are?

 

2 I have been a member of two unions which has covered about 80% of my working life.

 

In the one particular employment the front line reps were completely useless so I requested a meeting with an area rep who in turn defended the rep's advice even though I had documented lawyer's expert advice that contradicted what they had advised.

 

I took this right through to the union's own secretary who eventually admitted incorrect advice was given yet referred me back to the useless front line reps for representation! Yet the damage had been done by this point.

 

3 Unchallenged union reps put into position is quite ridiculous and which is why numpty's like I experienced and their flawed advice leads to situations like mine.

 

One particular rep could barely read or write, effectively left school at 14, never had any training of note by the union yet advised employee's of their rights at work!

 

He was only in position by virtue of being unchallenged.

 

What good is that?

 

4 I received advice from a lawyer who put her findings into a file for me to attend my hearing with a work colleague.

 

How is that an 'external lawyer being allowed into a workplace grievance/disciplinary hearing' as you have stated?

 

In any case, should an employee be charged with a criminal offence outside of work but the employer feels this may impact on their business then the employer may decide to arrange a hearing in respect of it.

 

The employee would have every right to be accompanied by a lawyer to this hearing at work as the subject matter may only be properly conveyed by a professional person with expertise due to the criminal nature.

 

So, yes, in this event it would happen but it's by the by regarding this thread.

[djgordyp]

Basic line I take with this type of thing-unions/union reps are useless.

 

Couldn't agree more. In August my employer changed our pay structure and prior to this our union rep went on about how it was discrimiatory/unfair and how he was going to take them to court. Since August we've heard nothing from him. He even cancelled an arranged meeting at the last minute (arranged a week previous) saying he couldn't make it.

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/employment-problems/114353-employer-changes-pay-structure.html

 

A Union is ONLY as strong/effective as its Members.

Maybe, but they shouldn't promise to do such and such and then effectivly leave you high and dry.

[MilkTrayMan]

...My experience of union reps is based upon my own experience where my opinion is that they are usless and almost exclusively so...

 

2 I have been a member of two unions which has covered about 80% of my working life.

 

In the one particular employment the front line reps were completely useless so I requested a meeting with an area rep who in turn defended the rep's advice even though I had documented lawyer's expert advice that contradicted what they had advised.

 

I took this right through to the union's own secretary who eventually admitted incorrect advice was given yet referred me back to the useless front line reps for representation! Yet the damage had been done by this point.

 

3 Unchallenged union reps put into position is quite ridiculous and which is why numpty's like I experienced and their flawed advice leads to situations like mine.

 

One particular rep could barely read or write, effectively left school at 14, never had any training of note by the union yet advised employee's of their rights at work!

 

He was only in position by virtue of being unchallenged.

 

What good is that?...

 

Couldn't agree more...they shouldn't promise to do such and such and then effectivly leave you high and dry.

 

A Union is ONLY as strong/effective as its Members!...

Thank God I'm NOT Australian, else I'd call the pair of U a couple of 'Whinging Apples'!

 

Instead of criticising peeps who try to help others, by giving up their free time, which is mostly unpaid + by highlighting their unsuitabilty to hold elected posts, U are guilty of being accessories before, during + after the fact!!!...

 

It's a very simple case of PUT UP...or SHUT UP!

 

If U think that U could represent both yourself + your fellow work colleagues to a better standard than the present incumbents, then why don't step forward to be counted, instead of skulking in the shadows of those who are brave enough to put their heads above the parapet??...

[bartymuv]

ive been a shop steward for about 16 years now.

 

ive represented many individuals in that time, and have only seen 1 person dismissed. with photographic evidence, he still denied involvement.

i tried to tell him that he should admit to being in the photos and let the company take it from there, but he wouldn't accept my advice.

 

3 months later i spoke to the manager who took the hearing, and he confided in me that had the person not denied that it was him in the photos, he would have still been employed.

 

the op here states that there was no representation on the shop floor and he had to call on the services of his tu at branch level.

 

this person would indeed, in my opinion, have been very experianced, and would have spoken to the company prior to the hearing to ascertain exactly where they where coming from.

if his advice was to take the payoff, then i would assume it was because he thought it the best option.

after 7 years with the same company he could have taken them to a tribunal for unfair dismissal, but only if the company had not followed the written proceedures for dismissal.

 

i have to say that im very fortunate that the company i work for do a lot of consultation with the unions before implementing any changes ie. to working practises, rosters etc.

and their disiplinary proceedures are there for eveyone to peruse.

 

ive seen newly elected shop stewards come in and start banging their fists on the table. its got them nowhere.

 

its a bit like a football match, every fan is a manager and could tell who to play and who not to etc.

the same with the shop floor, you have the guys who like to load the bullets, but dont want to fire the gun.

there never on the list when it comes up for an election.

 

these days you dont have to be in a union, but, the only way you'll find out if that was a wise choice is when you have an accident or an incident involving health and safety.

 

as i said, im fortunate that my company accept the union as an integral part of the business.

 

i would be very wary of working anywhere where there was no union recognition.

 

just my thoughts,

 

bartymuv.

[caro]

I certainly agree with union representation, and believe it should be a right of ALL employees if they wish it. On the whole my experience of unions has been good, but at the time of my problems, I felt employment law at that time had been tilted in favour of employers.

 

Unions have had to change and adapt, and these days negotiation is a more effective tool. I applaud those who put themselves forward to be reps, as so many are unwilling or unable to do this demanding job.

[Weird Al Yankovic]

Thank God I'm NOT Australian, else I'd call the pair of U a couple of 'Whinging Apples'!

 

Instead of criticising peeps who try to help others, by giving up their free time, which is mostly unpaid + by highlighting their unsuitabilty to hold elected posts, U are guilty of being accessories before, during + after the fact!!!...

 

It's a very simple case of PUT UP...or SHUT UP!

 

If U think that U could represent both yourself + your fellow work colleagues to a better standard than the present incumbents, then why don't step forward to be counted, instead of skulking in the shadows of those who are brave enough to put their heads above the parapet??...

 

Quite the wrong end of the stick you seem to have grasped.

 

As I have said before, my experience of union reps has been exactly that, my experience!

 

Why, and how, are you able to disagree with what I have experienced?

 

In my last employment the union were as bent in their dealings with staff as the employers were.

 

They certainly did not do representation in their free time but only whilst on duty-and getting paid.

 

Again, why would I want to ask an opinion of a postman (CWU) about an employment matter when I could get expert legal advice for free?