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getting ccj overturned


polly55
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Hi, just received intimidating looking tome from Weightmans. HFC's witness statement rebutting everything I've claimed. I've posted this as a link and if anyone's got a bit of time on their hands, could they have a look and suggest what I should put in my response.

 

Good news is, I think, the Credit Agreement, which I've also posted, doesn't seem to have all of the prescribed terms on it. Neither does it appear to have my signature on it either, but I suppose I must have signed it?!? What does this mean?:confused:

 

Sorry about all these links, I'm sure there must be a better way but I dont know it.

 

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh67/polly55_photos/hfc%20witness%20statement/img026.jpg

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh67/polly55_photos/hfc%20witness%20statement/img027.jpg

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh67/polly55_photos/hfc%20witness%20statement/img028.jpg

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh67/polly55_photos/hfc%20witness%20statement/img029.jpg

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh67/polly55_photos/hfc%20witness%20statement/img030.jpg

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh67/polly55_photos/hfc%20witness%20statement/img031.jpg

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh67/polly55_photos/hfc%20witness%20statement/img032.jpg

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh67/polly55_photos/hfc%20witness%20statement/img033.jpg

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh67/polly55_photos/hfc%20witness%20statement/img034.jpg

 

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh67/polly55_photos/HSBC%20credit%20agreement/img037.jpg

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh67/polly55_photos/HSBC%20credit%20agreement/img036.jpg

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh67/polly55_photos/HSBC%20credit%20agreement/img038.jpg

img026.jpg

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could i ask someone i help me with my thread please ??

Northern Rock - loan - £6000

Beneficial credit card - £12+

GM Card - £13+

will have to look up the others have about 21 debtors totalling about £175,000

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Hi Polly

 

I notice that in his witness statement Mr Whateverhisnameis seems to be a bit undecisive on the date of the Default Notice, see point 11 on img028.jpg and you will see he has put 27 February 2007 2006.

 

Can you see if the copies of the various pages of the alleged agreement are likely to be taken from opposite sides of double-sided pages, or whether they may have copied your signature page and stored it and then just married up the other pages from generic copies? You could look for tell-tale marks which should appear to match on both opposing sides of each sheet, ie fold marks, or those punch holes which are clearly visible. (Bear in mind they may have punched the holes recently though in an attempt to make the documents look as if they came from one sheet).

 

Rob

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i am just reading your documents polly - we are having similar but with hfc/restons - once i have read the letter this evening i will try and help

Northern Rock - loan - £6000

Beneficial credit card - £12+

GM Card - £13+

will have to look up the others have about 21 debtors totalling about £175,000

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just a quick point polly - cant find page 3 of the so called contract but page 2 of 4 seems to be a lot longer than the other pages - they wouldnt have edited and added would they?????

Northern Rock - loan - £6000

Beneficial credit card - £12+

GM Card - £13+

will have to look up the others have about 21 debtors totalling about £175,000

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Hello Rob

If they punched the holes to make them look as though they're opposite sides of the same page, they've shot themselves in the foot, as holes are all on the left (obviously, would be left on p.1, right on p.2, etc). Also, this is a strange thing. At the bottom of p.1 (which you can't see on the copies I've posted) there is a long rectangular text box, with the words

 

"Page 1 of 4. To be returned together with Terms and Conditions on Page 2, 3 and 4 in the envelope provided"

 

At the bottom of page 2 the box contains the words

"page 2 of 4. to be returned together with your signed Application in the envelope provided.

 

would you then expect page 3, which is a continuation of page 2, to have the same text in the box? I would, but no, it says:

 

"page 3 of 4. To be returned together with Terms and Conditions on Page 2, 3 and 4 in the envelope provided." (page 3 is referring to itself!)

 

Page 4 then reverts to the text of page 2. All very suspect I think.

 

Also, I reiterate, I have been sent a copy of the Credit Agreement which has none of my details anywhere on it or my signature. Do they bring the original to court or what. How can this be any proof?

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Hello Rob

If they punched the holes to make them look as though they're opposite sides of the same page, they've shot themselves in the foot, as holes are all on the left (obviously, would be left on p.1, right on p.2, etc). Also, this is a strange thing. At the bottom of p.1 (which you can't see on the copies I've posted) there is a long rectangular text box, with the words

 

"Page 1 of 4. To be returned together with Terms and Conditions on Page 2, 3 and 4 in the envelope provided"

I've just looked at the alleged agreement .doc file in MS Word. For anyone who wishes to view these Word documents, all can be seen if you make some adjustments to the Word page setup for this document! I've just made adjustments to the margins on all 4 edges of the page down to 0.5cm (Also Polly, I notice you have Word setup for US English, as many people unwittingly do!)

I can now see all the bits you describe Polly ;)

 

At the bottom of page 2 the box contains the words

"page 2 of 4. to be returned together with your signed Application in the envelope provided.

 

would you then expect page 3, which is a continuation of page 2, to have the same text in the box? I would, but no, it says:

 

"page 3 of 4. To be returned together with Terms and Conditions on Page 2, 3 and 4 in the envelope provided." (page 3 is referring to itself!)

 

Page 4 then reverts to the text of page 2. All very suspect I think.

As you say Polly, all very suspect. IMHO, if this is all they have then I don't think it would stand up in court, but obviously it would be better to get the opinion of some of the more knowledgeable members.

 

Also, I reiterate, I have been sent a copy of the Credit Agreement which has none of my details anywhere on it or my signature. Do they bring the original to court or what. How can this be any proof?

 

Also,it may interest you to know that (although my alleged agreement is from 1994) the same Mr Whatsisname, describing himself as an employee of HFC Bank Ltd, has recently stated regarding the copy documents sent to me (including an alleged agreement) that "All originals of documents listed above are copies". In which case I think that means that they do not have original originals!

 

Rob

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That's because there isn't one among the stuff I've been sent. By the way does this stuff constitute a response to my CPR18 request or are they still in default?

 

Here's an interesting thing. I attach a link to one of the pages of Collection History Display, referred to in the Witness Statement as Exhibit MKD5. It seems to refer to an offer being made to me to settle, at a 28 percent discount at 0 percent interest, over a period of 120 months. I never received this offer (why on earth wouldn't I accept it if I had received it at that time?) Does this have any relevance to my case?

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh67/polly55_photos/img042.jpg

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  • 2 weeks later...

hi, what exactly does it mean if the agreement is unenforceable, given that I've admitted owing the amount previously and am now trying to have the judgement set aside? What do you think should be the thrust of my defence, given this fact and in the light of anything in HSBC's witness statement. I'm just sitting down to draft my response and don't want to waste time and energy on irrelevancies. Any suggestions welcome. By the way my question still stands about the CPR response, does their witness statement fulfill their obligation or are they in breach?

Regards

Polly

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Incidentally, I've just noticed, the copy default notice referred to in HFC's witness statement (exhibit MKD3) is not a copy of the one that was sent to me on 27th February 2007, which I have found. The one that was sent to me was on HSBC letterhead, the copy enclosed with the witness statement as you can see is on HFC letterhead. Is this relevant?

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Hi Polly

 

I can't remember whether or not you posted the default notice in this thread (without looking back through ;) ). Did you do so, and was it established that the DN notice met the requirements?

 

Rob

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Hi rob

I've attached the 2 notices. One was sent with the HFC witness statement as an exhibit. One, which is clearly headed HSBC is the one that was sent to me in February 2007. As you can see from the attached copies the 2 letters have the same text, except in 3 aspects:

1) the originating address is slightly different (different PO box no's)

2) different signatories (one is signed Card Services HFC Bank Ltd, the other is signed Collections Advisor HSBC Finance Ltd

3) In the first paragraph the HFC letter refers to an agreement "between you and HFC Bank plc". the HSBC letter in the same paragraph refers to an agreement "between you and HSBC Finance Ltd"

 

I reiterate, the one on the HFC headed paper was NOT sent to me in February 2007 but it is being represented as if it had. Does this matter? I suppose what I'm getting at is that, although HSBC Finance Ltd is a trading name of HFC Bank Limited (as stated in HFC'S witness statement) my original agreement (a true copy of which I have not yet seen showing prescribed terms and my signature) was between HSBC and myself. Let me know what you think

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh67/polly55_photos/img045.jpg

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh67/polly55_photos/img046.jpg

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh67/polly55_photos/img047.jpg

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh67/polly55_photos/img044.jpg

Thanks for your input

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surely these are 2 different documents - i think i would let them get to court and then state that they have 'emblished the truth' (lied!) about the document they sent to you and see them worm their way out of that.....surely any judge would see them for what they are?

Northern Rock - loan - £6000

Beneficial credit card - £12+

GM Card - £13+

will have to look up the others have about 21 debtors totalling about £175,000

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Hi Polly

 

It seems that they have shot themselves in the foot big-time :o ;) .

 

The 2 DN have got different dates on them for you to remedy the default.

 

The one which you say was sent to you (the original :p ) and which is headed HSBC is dated 27/2/2007 and gives you until 12/3/2007 to remedy, which is only 13 days not the 14 which is required.

 

This is exactly the same thing which happened to me with a default sent to me by HFC on 1/2/2007 and gave me until 14/2/2007, and which pt2537 noticed and pointed out to me with his famous comment of 'game over'! :)

 

What do you think Paul? It looks like the same thing applies here.

 

It seems to me like HFC have tried to cover their tracks with the later default, and possibly commiting fraud in the process, by stating 13/2/2007 to remedy on that DN.

 

I think some expert advice would be welcome on this situation. :eek:

 

Cheers

Rob

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Hi Rob

 

God bless you! I didn't even notice that discrepancy. You're right I think we need some expert advice here, but it looks good doesn't it?:D

 

best regards

Polly

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Hi Rob

 

God bless you! I didn't even notice that discrepancy. You're right I think we need some expert advice here, but it looks good doesn't it?:D

 

best regards

Polly

Well it looks good to me, but I'm no expert! :D

 

Perhaps you should PM one or more of the more knowledgeable people for some advice on this slip-up and perhaps an explanation of the implications?

 

Cheers

Rob

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It seems to me like HFC have tried to cover their tracks with the later default, and possibly commiting fraud in the process, by stating 13/2/2007 to remedy on that DN.

 

Maybe perjury has also been committed as the later DN was supplied with a witness statement which would have included a signed statement of truth.

 

Rob

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Hi Rob

How are you getting on with your thing by the way? I was having a look at it today. Do you think I should ask to get this moved over to legal issues as you did with yours?

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Hi there

Have a month to go before I'm back in court. I'm uncertain as to how I should approach the whole thing. I now feel that I have to add to my reasons for setting CCJ aside, the fact that the Default Notice did not meet requirements. Also that I have not been supplied with a true copy of the executed agreement and my CPR18 request has been defaulted on. Do I have to put something formal into the court (ie, an amendment to my NR44) or some kind of witnes statement. Could anyone help with my next step? Less than a month till court and I want to be prepared

Thanks

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Really interested to hear what happens on this one. I've spent about 4 hours reading the whole thread plus all the links. All the best to you, you're really doing well and I'm sure your efforts will help plenty of others. Good on you.

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Hi Rob

How are you getting on with your thing by the way? I was having a look at it today. .....

 

Hi Polly

 

I'm not sure which of my things you were looking at ;) but you can have another look if you like!

 

I've just updated both the CCJ thread and the other HFC thread. As luck would have it I found the original DN for the account with the CCJ on it and it is invalid, the same as yours. I've also recently sent HFC Bank a SAR for that account so it will be interesting (if they comply) to see if they also try and pull a fast one and change the dates like they did with yours.

 

Did you PM anybody to try and get an opinion on the points I raised in posts #66 and #69 above? I think that might be worthwhile doing, possibly being beneficial to both of us!

 

Cheers

Rob

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Hi Rob

As I told you in my PM, I'm trying to get some expert advice. A further question I need answered is this: the real default notice which I hold is a copy, I sent the original to Payplan, who inform me that it was shredded and a copy held electronically. They've sent me their copy which is of course the same as mine. As they're both copies, should I get my Payplan officer to sign some kind of witness statement saying it's a true copy of the one sent to them in February 2007. What do you think? I guess if I claim their version is a fake, couldn't they say the same about mine?

Cheers

Polly

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