Natwest Loan and Aic

[barney2]

Hi all

 

Not sure what to do. Had a loan with natwest 2001. Due to personal reasons payments stopped in 2003/04 time. AIC started contacting threatening in 2006 ish. Me not knowing any different agreed a payment plan with them even though couldn't afford it. filled in direct debit forms that they say they didn't get. Filled another one in they never get that one. In the mean time still getting threats and payed over phone with card. I think the last time was July. Then no payments recived a letter from another DCA claiming they had debt now (can't remember name of them) am in process of cca ing them. Looked at bank statement and AIC have started taking payments out of account via DD that they claimed they didn't have. What do i do about money that they have had of me. Although its not much £100 i can't afford it. ANy advice would be greatly appreciated this.

[barney2]

Just to add name of new DCA is Equidebt are they anything to do with AIC. And the money they took off me last month meant i went over drawn which means £30 charge and probably same this month. What do i do?

[rory32]

I assume you have now cancelled the DD. Was the DD set up by yourself or did they do it with your bank account details without your permission?

[barney2]

THey were sent bank details in may and then in june as they said they hadnt recieved them. Last payment they had knowingly was July by card over the phone. Then DD in november and again this month. Cancelled it today.

[rory32]

Were you informed that the DD had been set up? I assume not. Take a look here Direct debits - the official line and here Direct debits - what to do if one goes wrong

[barney2]

Thanks for that. I've talked to bank again and it turns out it was a standing order they set up not a direct debit. Whats the difference between the two? Where does this leave me can i ask for money back as i could really do with it? Thanks

[NailPost]

Direct debit means they can take variable amounts out having first given you the proper period of notice. A standing order is the same amount each month.

 

Either way its your bank account and your money and anyone helping themselves to it are thieves as far as I'm concerned. Cancel the standing order and ask your bank how they came to set up a standing order without your permission. If the bank waffles ask them again and again until they cough up the answer.

[barney2]

Thanks nailpost. Spoke to bank and they say that because i gave em account details, even if it was in June, they can set up standing order as thats me giving permission. What irritates me more is that because i didn't know it was going to come out either time i've been charged £60 for going overdrawn. Nice

[shadygiz]

with direct debits, the money is requested by the person who is owed the money and this amount varies, so to protect you they have to write to you i think 2 weeks before the revised payment will be taken and advise of the new amounts

However, with a standing order, this is deemed to have been set up by you and it is a request by you to send a set amount to a certain account every month. Therefore, if the amounts or dates change, then realistically the bank are saying its you that would know the changes and this had to be instructed by you and not the person you are paying.

Although, in real life we can all see the fundamental flaw in this as they have your bank account details and can set up at anytime they want according to the bank.

i dont think standing orders are covered by the same jurisdictions as direct debits although more clued up people on here may be able to tell you differently. Does your bank have the capabilities to advise you whenever a new direct debit or standing order is set up on your account, it may be worthwhile asking them for the future mate. Definitely cancel the standing order, cca the debt collectors and sit back

[rory32]

they can set up standing order as thats me giving permission.

Complete rubbish. Get them to confirm that this is indeed a Standing Order and then demand your money back - including the charges. A standing order can ONLY be set up by YOU, not anyone else. It is an instruction from YOU to the bank, not someone with your account details. Using their argument if I wrote you a cheque you could then go and set up a standing order from my account to yours as I have just given you my account details. If they don't return the funds to your account then use their internal complaints procedure and then if necessary the FOS.

[rory32]

From the FOS:

 

banking - standing orders and direct debits

 

standing order or direct debit?

Many of the complaints we get about regular payments wrongly describe a standing order as a ‘direct debit’, or a direct debit as a ‘standing order’. It’s maybe not too surprising that customers get the terms muddled up, because standing orders and direct debits do broadly the same thing, even though they work very differently. It doesn’t help, though, when bankers themselves sometimes describe them wrongly. Here's a brief explanation:

 

standing orders are customers’ instructions to their bank to pay a set amount, to a named beneficiary, at regular intervals (say on the 1st of the month) – either for a specific period of time or until cancelled.

direct debits are:

customers’ authority for beneficiaries to claim payments (variable in amount and frequency) from the customers’ accounts; andcustomers’ instructions to their bank to allow the taking of those payments.

A standing order requires the customer’s bank to send the money. A direct debit requires the beneficiary to claim the money.

Typically, a standing order might be used to pay a fixed amount to a savings account or to a local club. A direct debit is more likely to be used to make payments that can vary from time to time – such as mortgage instalments or utility bills.

The day-to-day advantage of a direct debit over a standing order is that, as and when the payment amount changes, the beneficiary will claim the new amount automatically – after telling the customer of the change. With a standing order, customers need to give their bank new instructions each time a change is needed.

how the systems work

Standing orders can be simpler than direct debits – mainly because the beneficiary is not involved in claiming payments. At set times, the customer’s bank just sends the money to the beneficiary’s bank and only the customer can alter the payments. The beneficiary can be anyone.

In contrast, the variable nature of direct debits means that beneficiaries can claim different amounts at different times. This flexibility is the main advantage of the direct debit system – but there is a potential risk that unscrupulous or inefficient beneficiaries might claim money that is not due to them.

To combat this – and to reassure customers – the direct debit system contains two main safeguards:

The direct debit guarantee provides for the customer’s bank to refund disputed payments without question, pending further investigation. (For fuller information about the direct debit guarantee, see the April 2003 edition of ombudsman news). Direct debits can only be set up for payments to beneficiaries that are approved ‘originators’ of direct debits. In order to be approved, these beneficiaries are subjected to careful vetting procedures – and, once approved, they are required to give indemnity guarantees through their banks.

Usually, the customer has to sign a direct debit form, although some particularly trusted originators are authorised to set up direct debits where the customer has given authority over the phone. If that sounds a little risky, remember that the originator must have obtained the bank account details from the customer – and that the customer is protected by the direct debit guarantee.

Payments themselves are made by a system that is in some ways based on the cheque clearing system. This means that the process usually starts two working days before the money is due to reach the beneficiary’s bank account.

[rory32]

Another alternative, if the bank doesn't refund the money, is rather than go through their internal complaints procedure is to issue a LBA and if they don't comply file a claim in court for breach of contract. In conjunction with this make a formal complaint to the DCA for setting this up with the bank and if they don't respond favourably report the DCA to the FOS.

[rory32]

barney are you in Scotland or England/Wales?

[barney2]

Hi sorry its late just finished work.. I'm in England. Do i not go after DCA for refund as they set up Standing order after passing debt on? Really confused on this one.

[rory32]

If this is a standing order you go after the bank for a standing order as only you can set this up, not a third party with your account details. If this is a standing order the bank have committed a very serious breach. If they want their money back from the DCA then they can pursue them for it (not your problem). What you can do however is make a complaint to the DCA for setting the SO up in the first place and take it further if necessary.

[barney2]

Thanks i'm really tired and afte re reading things a few times i'm a bit more with it. I've checked my bank statement again and it deffinatley says standing order so will be onto bank on Friday. Having a stress free day tommorrow. Really really really appreciate your help. Really glad i found this site, it just makes me wonder more and more how many people just let others walk all over them. A bank or DCA says they want something and people say ok. I've done it in the past myself and really kicking myself now for falling for all the scare tatics, probably paid way over the odds for small debts.

[shadygiz]

i recently set up a standing order to send a one-off payment for some gaming servers...the server comapny had given me one digit incorrectly on their account info

when i found out i spoke with my bank manager about making a claim for the money back and was advised that as it was a standing order i dont have the same protections as a direct debit and could not claim.

 

I was lucky in this case has the money had gone into the clients banks holding account so i managed to trace and retrieve.

 

In your case the money has been paid and cleared, keep badgering the bank tbh mate

[barney2]

Hi not sure where i stand at the moment. Phoned bank and when i managed to speak to someone that understood what i was trying to tell them, they were helpful. It was set up in October to come out Nov and so on. They apparently have some written request to set it up, which should be on its way to me. This is what got me questioning myself. What happens if i did fill some sort of form in and sent to AIC way back in June, i really cant remember at all. If i did is that me setting up a standing order? It also means that AIC probably still have the second lot of bank details can i request them back or is it best to SAR them?

[2Grumpy]

Both

 

Sounds like you need to give them a kicking

 

Grumpy