Rundle and Co

[webbscatering]

Hi People,

what gives with these bailiff, I have a pub and they have just entered my pub and levied the goods, I have spoke to the bailiff on the phone as the manager gave him my mobile number and he told me I got five days to pay £1600 or the goods will be removed. I asked why was i not informed that we was at this stage! he promptly replied that you would have been notified by his office, which I know i have not as in the past when we get a letter from a bailiffs office I always make good offers of payment. So what can I do....some sound advice muchly appreciated

[Guest 10110001]

If the goods are tools of trade, perishable stock, or devices that make money for the business - e.g. a pool table or a gambling machine, then thay cant take them. Bailiffs can take your tables and chairs so long as your customers still have somewhere to sit and does not interfere with the financial performance of your business. Bailiffs aren't interested in furniture anyway, but if your pub is in need of new for old furniture then you have now have an opportunuty to do it on the bailiffs liability insurer.

 

If you have not been given notice that bailiffs have been instructed then its lilkely they didnt write to you. Just tell them you have not received their letter and Section 7 of the Interpretation Act 1978 can do the rest and you can get the matter back with the council.

 

Ask the bailiff how much fees he is charging you and ask the authority how much they say they owe you. If Tomtubby (on this forum) finds the bailiff has defrauded you in fees then then pay the bailiff the whole amount with a credit card (don't day anything to the bailiff) then revoke the transaction under Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act using the grounds that the bailiff obtained a money transfer by deception. The bailiff loses all his fees, and you can just pay the authority the agreed amount.

 

Its dirty but its the law.

[webbscatering]

Very interesting what you wrote, now i have been in this position before with regards to the same bailiff because its a pub he just walks right in and out as this is not classed as forced entry. So what can i do stop him from taking my car and my goods when i need to keep the pub trading. They have not sent me any warning letters but I feel its their word against mine so kind of lost on what to do there. There would be no point in phoning them as they will obviously say we sent them even if its true or not, so no need to waste my breath on that one. Now the CAB have said I can go back to the issuing court that granted the liability order and try to get the warrant stopped but where do I start on this one with just 5 days to go.

[Guest 10110001]

Very interesting what you wrote, now i have been in this position before with regards to the same bailiff because its a pub he just walks right in and out as this is not classed as forced entry.

 

Bailiffs cant break & enter unless he is collecting for HMRC, or has previously entered the premises relating to the same order.

 

So what can i do stop him from taking my car and my goods when i need to keep the pub trading.

 

Bailiffs cannot take goods that will interfere with the performace of your business or take tools of your trade. If they do then you can replace them with new ones, bot only if 2nd hand goods of similar value are not immediately available to enable you to continue business uninterrupted. You then bill the authority - not the bailiff - for the cost of replacing those goods. The authority is liable for its bailiffs, and the authority claims from the bailiffs liability insurer.

 

 

They have not sent me any warning letters but I feel its their word against mine so kind of lost on what to do there.

 

Tell the authority and the bailiff you have not received any letter, by telling them this in writing,the burden of proof passes to the bailiff. Section 7 of the Interpretation Act 1978.

 

 

There would be no point in phoning them as they will obviously say we sent them even if its true or not, so no need to waste my breath on that one.

 

Agreed.

 

 

Now the CAB have said I can go back to the issuing court that granted the liability order and try to get the warrant stopped but where do I start on this one with just 5 days to go.

 

If thats the CAB's advice then they should have explained this. Is this council tax? a parking ticket?

 

If this were me, I would just phone the bailiff and pay with a credit card whatever he wants, the whole £1600. Afterwards, check his fees, check he is certificated, check the Firm is licensed for consumer credit and check the fees are prescribed. If he had defrauds you then you can get all your money back with a Section 75. Phone your credit card company for a chargeback form and you will laugh last.

[webbscatering]

Hi 10110001,

its Non-Domestic rates (business rates), but it seems there is a separate laws from domestic or this is how they are putting it. They are certificated bailiffs, but nothing else noted apart from a company number and the VAT number. But I have another pub down the road and he came to that one and levied my vehicles... thats strange even in my eyes.

 

Bailiffs cannot take goods that will interfere with the performace of your business or take tools of your trade. If they do then you can replace them with new ones, bot only if 2nd hand goods of similar value are not immediately available to enable you to continue business uninterrupted. You then bill the authority - not the bailiff - for the cost of replacing those goods. The authority is liable for its bailiffs, and the authority claims from the bailiffs liability insurer.

 

Hi 10110001,

This is very interesting where did you find this from?

[PizzaMaker]

Is the fine (Business Rates or Parking) in your name or in the name of the pub?

 

If its your name then any vehicles belonging to you can be seized.

 

As its a pub and if related to NDR rates (Business Rates) they will normally only give you a short period to pay as they will presume you can pay promoptly.

 

With regards to good, you pool table, video machines will normally be on hire/lease agreement. The tables, chairs and possibly drinks unopened can be leived upon. Do you have any personal effect hanging on walls, e.g. photos signed, football shirts, etc.

 

Are you leaseholder or freeholder?

[webbscatering]

Hi Pizza Maker,

the liability order is in my name, I have no personal effects and its a leasehold

[PizzaMaker]

So the goods in the pub do not belong to you?

 

Effects in pub such as TV's etc do not belong to you?

 

Thinks best to PM you.

[webbscatering]

Hi Pizzamaker,

sorry for the slight confusion, I own the Fixtures & Fittings, tables, chairs, kitchen equipment and all things that form the basis of my business, what is not mine is basically anything that is not structural.

[Guest 10110001]

Hi 10110001,

its Non-Domestic rates (business rates),

 

Then only the business is liable, The pub will (usually) be wrapped into a Ltd company and you cannot be held personally liable.

 

 

but it seems there is a separate laws from domestic or this is how they are putting it.

 

The legislation that handles non-domestic rates is called the Part 5 of the Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992

 

 

They are certificated bailiffs,

 

Did you check they are properly certificated? phone the public register of bailiffs on 0207 210 0516. While youre at it, check they hold a Category C and Category E consumer credit license. The OFT says its a criminal offence to trade in debt recovery without a Category E consumer credit license. Its a criminal offence under Section 39(1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 to trade unlicensed. A crime number adds weight, call the Consumer Credit public register 020 7211 8608 and press 1 to search register

 

but nothing else noted apart from a company number and the VAT number. But I have another pub down the road and he came to that one and levied my vehicles... thats strange even in my eyes.

 

Did you sign a walking possessions agreement? Have the vehicles been clamped? are they needed for your business? are they yours? Im not au fait on this type of levy without a walking possession agreement. I hope someone else can advise.

[Guest 10110001]

Bailiffs cannot take goods that will interfere with the performace of your business or take tools of your trade. If they do then you can replace them with new ones, bot only if 2nd hand goods of similar value are not immediately available to enable you to continue business uninterrupted. You then bill the authority - not the bailiff - for the cost of replacing those goods. The authority is liable for its bailiffs, and the authority claims from the bailiffs liability insurer.

 

Hi 10110001,

This is very interesting where did you find this from?

 

Distress for Rent Rules 1988

 

The authority being liable for its bailiffs is a legal precendent. There is no contract between yoo and the bailiff. The contract is between bailiff and the authority. Any damages incurred by you (e.g. by being defrauded by a bailiff) are claimed against authority, then authority and its bailiffs settle their defferences between themselves.

[webbscatering]

Amazing Stuff 10110001, it has certainly given me a better insight to the mechanics of these bully boys, maybe their mothers never loved them!!!!

 

I will chat with you tomorrow maybe, Cheers Kev

[webbscatering]

With the help of Tomtubby, a letter is now winging its way to Rundle and Co, and trust me its a kick butt letter. I will keep you posted with more events as it happens

[ThisVeryMoment]

Bully boys? They are trying to get money out of someone who chooses not to pay on time! That isn't bullying.

 

"when we get a letter from a bailiffs office I always make good offers of payment". Try making the offers when you are supposed to and the bailiffs won't get involved!!

 

We pay on time, what makes you different?

[webbscatering]

Hi Tomtubby and Friends, through sound advice from reliable sources of mine as of 11am 18th December 2007 I was officially made Bankrupt, this is not a bad thing as it has saved me 80k which I could have been charged for breaches in contract. So onto business "Walk In Possession Order" issued for the 18th December 2007. After I sent the letter from Tomtubby the Bailiff still turned up and wanted to remove my possessions, he phoned my mobile and I explained I no longer owned the business as I was made bankrupt yesterday and he could do what he likes. He said he had received the letter from Tomtubby and it was a load of B***ocks and did'nt apply to him as he was certified to work in England and said we should have looked at the small print......what small print?. After a call to the council office they accepted I was broke and called off the wolves, after I said about Tomtubby's letter they too said it did'nt apply as this was for "Distress of Rent" and not for council tax???. To be honest I do not know what to believe! but I did tape the conversation to the council as i know full well they are useless. Pity I did'nt tape the bailiff as he went mental at me spat dummy and hung up twice, he demanded I go and open the premises to let him in so he can take the goods out?? even though he did say the auction van was en route and also the locksmith!!

[Guest 10110001]

If you have been declared bankrupt and you entered your debts (which the bailiff is calling about) on the Form 6.28 Statement of Affairs, then the bailiff should contact the official receiver. Call the receiver and let him know you have had bailiffs call, and he'll decide if the bailiff is entitled access to your goods.

 

If the bailiff is threatening to take goods belonging to your business and you listed them on Section 2 of Form 6.28 (your assets), then you must phone the Official Receiver immediately and hand the phone to the bailiff. The goods do not belong to you until they have been released back to you by the receiver. Neither you or a bailiff can dispose of goods listed on Form 6.28.

 

Bailiffs cannot use a locksmith to enter the premises through a locked door, its breaking and entering (burglary, if done during hours of darkness), you should inform police.

 

Debts that are not nullified by bankruptcy are criminal fines and child support.

[webbscatering]

101, good comments made there, I feel also there was something in the letter by Tomtubby because this Bailiff is a cool customer mild in approach and methodical. Something upset him today because he was swearing at me down the phone, also why ask me to let him in the pub...basically they will lie to get what they want and deal with the consequences after. So severe was his threats we actually hid our cars!!!

[Guest 10110001]

So severe was his threats we actually hid our cars!!!

 

How severe? You might have a criminal element to the case.

[webbscatering]

He said what about your house, I said what about it? he said he will go round there and levy goods there. So we had to warn my 13 year old son to be on the look out and if need be call the Police. He was angry and abusive but I dont think he threatened me though, but did make things worse as i was calling him gay and a faggot ....not choice words really.

[sillygirl1]

He can't levy on your house and the contents as the debt was for your business, he clearly is on a losing streak and needs to save face somewhere along the line. If he does turn up at home call the police immediately and report a robbery in progress.

[Guest 10110001]

He said what about your house, I said what about it? he said he will go round there and levy goods there. So we had to warn my 13 year old son to be on the look out and if need be call the Police. He was angry and abusive but I dont think he threatened me though, but did make things worse as i was calling him gay and a faggot ....not choice words really.

 

It looks like he is trying to work outside the scope of his legal powers.

 

Ask him straight - what court certificated him - then tell him you will file a complaint for exceeding his power of authority by trying to levy on his private house for a business debt.

 

Also, remind him he is committing a criminal offence of demanding money with menaces, an offence under the Theft Act 1968.

 

That might shut him up and make him go away. This is looking like a nulla bona case.

[sillygirl1]

Its also an offence under the Fraud Act too... can't remember which year but might be 2006.

 

Might be worth reporting to the Bailiffs association on the relevant form too

[Guest 10110001]

Its also an offence under the Fraud Act too... can't remember which year but might be 2006.

 

Its Section 4 of the Fraud Act 2006, but in a criminal trial it carries a harder burden of proof, so the CPS will more likely charge a suspect under Section 15A(1) of the Theft Act 1968.

 

Might be worth reporting to the Bailiffs association on the relevant form too.

 

Don't waste your breath.

 

1. Their subscriptions/income come from bailiffs

2. They are on the bailiffs side

3. They have no legal authority

4. They are just quasi-regulators

5. They cannot award you compensation

6. They can't get your money back

 

Complain to the court.

[webbscatering]

He can't levy on your house and the contents as the debt was for your business, he clearly is on a losing streak and needs to save face somewhere along the line. If he does turn up at home call the police immediately and report a robbery in progress.

thanks for that sillygirl1, He lost that one and without a doubt we will call the Police should he come around the house. Quite funny really because we hid our two BMW's both worth about 6K each one with my private plate on it worth 2k as he levied them plus all the kitchen equipment and all the restaurant furniture (about 15 tables and 58 chairs) and stocks for a £1260 debt. A bit over zealous I think.

[webbscatering]

Its Section 4 of the Fraud Act 2006, but in a criminal trial it carries a harder burden of proof, so the CPS will more likely charge a suspect under Section 15A(1) of the Theft Act 1968.

 

 

 

Don't waste your breath.

 

1. Their subscriptions/income come from bailiffs

2. They are on the bailiffs side

3. They have no legal authority

4. They are just quasi-regulators

5. They cannot award you compensation

6. They can't get your money back

 

Complain to the court.

 

How do I start this process with regard to complaining, even though I have no evidence just my word over his.