Advice when being banned

[Lara blues]

I bought three pairs of shoes, which I paid for at Tk maxx Manchester UK, still inside the store I was stopped by a security guard asking me to go with him to his office, they told me I was recorded on camera changing the price tags on two pairs of shoes but I wasn’t given the option to see the video. The shoes in matter were originally in this store 39.99GBP and 29.99GBP a total of 60GBP, at the till I paid a total of 78GBP for the three pairs of shoes. Also I recall that the cashier said, “I’m not sure of the price of these shoes” to which I replied, “Can you check the price with the codes?” the cashier ignored this, did not call anyone to check the price and priced out the shoes making random conversation. I am not british and I have never done anything like this. The reason why I did it is as stupid as the incident itself, I thought it wasn’t wrong so I did not hide to change the price tags, I saw those shoes at a different price in another tk-maxx but didn’t have my size so I thought it would be easy to change the tags in this tk-maxx for a similar price I saw in the previous tk-maxx store. I wasn’t given any options of what could happen to me under the circumstances for example if I admitted or denied it. I recall being mocked by other staff that kept coming in the room. The security guard, who never said his name to me, said he wouldn’t let me go unless I provided all my personal information at the same time the guard suggested I might have committed credit card fraud? He wanted to keep even the pair of shoes for which I paid properly. One of the people in the other room came and told him that wasn’t possible because they couldn’t prove it, anyways he rang the police to come and deal with it but I guess they told him as the value of the goods were under 100GBP and I paid in the till to their cashier the store needed to deal with it. Anyways two policemen came and the security guard told them that the shop would deal with this. The two pairs of shoes were confiscated by the store, the amount I paid for the two pairs was not refunded, I offered to pay the correct price for the shoes but they didn’t allowed me to do so. I was told that Civil Recovery (Retail Loss Prevention: http://[email protected]) would send me a letter with a fine for the incident to recover administrative and time costs of the issue. I was asked to sign a paper to be able to go, when I came home I realized the space to be filled regarding the incident was left in blank the document merely stated I was banned from the retailer. I feel that I was treated unprofessionally and unfairly (racism) because I am not British. Another point is that this store didn’t have visible signs regarding Civil Recovering schemes. I am very stressed about the whole situation and I believe that if I were British I would have been treated differently under the same circumstances. The two policemen came to my house to verify my address I asked them about my situation they told me they were sure what happened was a mistake not a crime and that I would never do it again. I know my action was morally wrong and it is not worth all the stress I am going through, I was not arrested and wasn’t given a caution. I have been researching on the net and all I have found is that I will have to pay for loss recovery administrative cost. What is my legal situation and would you do if you were in my situation?

Points to be taken into consideration:

- I have never committed any crime or had a legal issue; I am a female, 35 years old.

- I am not British.

- The cashier said she wasn’t sure of the price on the shoes and I asked her if she could check the price code with the shoes, she ignored this.

- I paid for the goods.

- I was still inside the store when the security guard detained me.

- Not being British I wasn’t informed of my rights.

P.S. Keep your slapping comments please in other words, throw a stone if you have never made a mistake in your life.

[ScarletPimpernel]

Ah, Retail Loss Prevention. Read about them here: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collectors-debt-collection/111252-debenhams-dca.html

 

Retail Loss Prevention are a commercial company; they have no legal powers and cannot issue fines - only a court can do that. As you will see from the thread above, they are full of pish and wind, but ultimately know that they cannot get away with pursuing someone who was not charged and convicted, the assumption in law being that unless proven guilty you are innocent.

 

Please start a new thread in the DCA forum if you need help with them.

[GlasweJen]

Lara, I don't think your nationality is the issue here. Swapping the tags was not a mistake, you knew what you did when you done it, the fact they were cheaper in the other store doesn't matter, not all shops run promotions at the same time. You are very lucky not to be charged with deception or theft or something, you should know better at your age.

 

With regard to the RLP people you should post on the DCA thread as people there have had run ins with this company.

[chocolatte]

For a start, I don't care what country you come from, you just don't waltz into a shop and start re-arranging the price tags, and second, you are in our country, therefore you should abide by our laws, if you don't want to be arrested for commiting a minor offence, then don't do it, it doesn't matter where you come from, it's not racism, it's the law, so stop trying to blame it on your race. You are obviously very articulate, so don't take us all for fools and claim that you were unaware of what you were doing.

And finally, you played the dumb card this time and got away with it, don't expect to get away with it again.

Next time you are unsure of a price in a shop, ask the assistants, that's what they are there for.

[shywazz]

You took advantage of trying to get footwear at a cheaper price, swapping tags to obtain goods cheaper than priced is stealing from that store, you took the risk, knowing full well you were trying to con the store, now take what ever punishment comes your way.

Your place of birth has not come into this, regardless of birth place, theft from stores or any other place, will not be tolarated. Stealing from stores etc only puts prices up for shoppers, as stores have to recoup losses from somewhere, losses that you have now contrubuted to.

You have now placed extra costs/time on the store, to deal with the matter, the attendance of the police turning up, whom could have been dealing with other matters, all this costs money, that you have now caused, just to gain a few quid of footwear. Going by your age you should have known better. What example does that teach children of today..

[ScarletPimpernel]

You took advantage of trying to get footwear at a cheaper price, swapping tags to obtain goods cheaper than priced is stealing from that store, you took the risk, knowing full well you were trying to con the store, now take what ever punishment comes your way.

Your place of birth has not come into this, regardless of birth place, theft from stores or any other place, will not be tolarated. Stealing from stores etc only puts prices up for shoppers, as stores have to recoup losses from somewhere, losses that you have now contrubuted to.

You have now placed extra costs/time on the store, to deal with the matter, the attendance of the police turning up, whom could have been dealing with other matters, all this costs money, that you have now caused, just to gain a few quid of footwear. Going by your age you should have known better. What example does that teach children of today..

 

The issue here is that no punishment will be forthcoming; the police determined that it wasn't worth their time dealing with whatever allegation the shop made. Consequently, in the eyes of the law, the individual has not been convicted of a criminal offence. RPL issue invoices, just like the cowboy parking companies - they can't issue fines or punishments. In my view they are at least as unsavoury as someone who seeks to defraud a shop. If the shop still think that the individual committed a crime, then they can bring a private prosecution, in which the burden of proof is lower than that in criminal proceedings. If the police think it was all a waste of time, they have the charge of wasting police time available to them.

[patdavies]

If the shop still think that the individual committed a crime, then they can bring a private prosecution, in which the burden of proof is lower than that in criminal proceedings. If the police think it was all a waste of time, they have the charge of wasting police time available to them.

 

If they bring a private criminal prosecution the burden of proof remains 'beyond all reasonable doubt' That is the burden of proof in any criminal court regardless of who brings the prosecution.

 

If they go the the civil court for damages then the burden of proof is 'on the balance of probability', a lower test. But it would be an action for loss or damages, not a prosecution.

 

IOW, prosecution implies criminal and suing means civil

[Lara blues]

Thank you very much for all the replies, I really appreciate you took the time to read and express what you think. At my age I should have known better, true.

Yes, I am in your country and I have to stick to the rules as everyone else, the problem is when someone most likely a foreigner doesn´t know the possible outcomes. I´ve read the most scarry stories of people who ended paying for eating a jelly baby to Civil Recovery or Retail Loss Prevention 200gbp at least, they were not British. So I guess British people are educated regarding this matters and perhaps most of the foreigners tend to conceive it as harmless. So I figured when I changed the tags, in public not hidden, yes knowing it was wrong, the most it could happen to me would have been a don´t do it or at the till pay the correct price. The cashier certainly knew as she said "I´m not sure of the price of these shoes" I thought how embarrasing, I replied "Can you check the price of the shoes with the codes?" I thought I would pay full price but she ignored it. They knew it in the shop and allowed me to do it to be sent to the police. The shop guard made comments implicating that I could have commited fraud with credit cards too, blame me I guess, for all the issues they had in the shop, ceirtainly made me feel like the most despicable person. If I knew all that could happen to me I wouldn´t have done it. Now I know and I will never ever dare to eat a jellybaby or a pistachio.There will not be a next time.

That day I came home and told my friends, they just said they couldn´t believe it and laughed at me, then just told me not to worry. As I never heard or had an experience as such it was and still is traumatic and in my head I am thinking all the time about the whole issue,I am paying moraly at the moment, it feels like someone physically hit me . Normally slender, I´ve lost 3 kilos in 4 days and don´t want to leave the house just waiting for that letter and the punishment I owe to pay. I have to write my dissertation but can´t focus on anything appart from searching on the net topics related to this issue and the more I read the more I get terrified. As someone mentioned here,the stores lose a lot of money for conducts such mine. I´ve read about People re-selling the merchandise and making a lot of money from stealing, etc. Now being informed with whatever I´ve found has made me think of myself as a horrible person and not worth it, I even wanted to end with my boyfriend. What I did, Yes, it is very wrong. All the postings here: the harsh, partial and impartial have helped in great deal, Thank you all very much.

[ScarletPimpernel]

Well, don't pay RLP a penny, however low you feel.

[Lara blues]

I have an issue with tk maxx . I was wondering if you could give me some advice. My situation is this: I changed the price tag on a pair of shoes, paid and got caught. They called the police but they didnt arrest me or gave me a caution. the shop didnt take my fingerprints or a picture of me.I did it because I saw those same shoes only a different size and priced cheaper at another tk maxx store, in my experience when I have asked a sales assisstant there, they always pick up the most expensive similar item and that´s what I ´ve had to pay at the till, so i thought nooo I ´ll change the tag for a similar price to the other store. Anyways, they banned me from the shop and the paper says i am not allowed to enter to any tk maxx shop. I always shopped there and spent lots of money and usually found really nice things so I want to keep buying perhaps in a different tk maxx store. Please advice me on:

- Do they keep a list of the names of the banned people?

- If I go to another tk maxx shop will they know?

 

please reply

[blueskies]

Hi Lara,

 

I think that you accept that what you did was a mistake. You were lucky not to have been arrested. I think whether you have been a good customer at TkMaxx or not, it would be unwise for you to return to the same store. Regarding other stores, it is unlikely that you will be recognised and even if you do you will only be asked to leave if you are.

 

I would, personally, be too embarrassed to enter any of their shops again, but maybe that's just me.

[blueskies]

Posts taken from original thread to prevent thread hijack.

[blueskies]

The two pairs of shoes were confiscated by the store, the amount I paid for the two pairs was not refunded,

I am a little concerned about this as they should have either given you the money back or the shoes (provided that you had paid the full price for them)

I offered to pay the correct price for the shoes but they didn’t allowed me to do so. I was told that Civil Recovery (Retail Loss Prevention: [email protected]) would send me a letter with a fine for the incident to recover administrative and time costs of the issue. I was asked to sign a paper to be able to go, when I came home I realized the space to be filled regarding the incident was left in blank the document merely stated I was banned from the retailer. I feel that I was treated unprofessionally and unfairly (racism) Was it really??? I have seen a number of white British people dealt with very harshly for things like this. I don't believe your nationality would have changed things much. because I am not British. Another point is that this store didn’t have visible signs regarding Civil Recovering schemes. I am very stressed about the whole situation and I believe that if I were British I would have been treated differently under the same circumstances. The two policemen came to my house to verify my address I asked them about my situation they told me they were sure what happened was a mistake not a crime and that I would never do it again.

What you did most certainly is a crime, namely attempting to obtain goods by deception, an indictable offence. If I were the police officer attending I would have made an arrest, regardless of country of birth or any other factor.

I know my action was morally wrong and it is not worth all the stress I am going through, I was not arrested and wasn’t given a caution. I have been researching on the net and all I have found is that I will have to pay for loss recovery administrative cost. What is my legal situation and would you do if you were in my situation?

 

Points to be taken into consideration:

 

 

- I am not British. This is of no relevance

 

- I paid for the goods. Did you pay the full amount that you should have paid? If you only paid the price on the tags that you put on then you did not pay the correct price.

- I was still inside the store when the security guard detained me. This doesn't make any difference as it only changes the offence from attempted (by being stopped before leaving) to committed (by leaving the shop)

- Not being British I wasn’t informed of my rights. This would only be relevant if the police had taken criminal action

 

P.S. Keep your slapping comments please in other words, throw a stone if you have never made a mistake in your life.

 

I do not like these Civil recovery companies but the store is perfectly entitled to reclaim any costs they have incurred that are directly relevant to your case (i.e. they cannot reclaim for costs of installing cameras or things not directly relevant). I would say that, by retaining the shoes that you had paid an amount for that they should have recovered enough from you to cover these costs. I would put his information into any response to RLP.

 

I am not comfortable with your many references to not being British. Are you trying to use this as an excuse or are you trying to say you were dealt with more harshly because of this?

 

You have been dealt with very leniently

[MARTIN3030]

You obviously know what you did was wrong.

The fact that they were cheaper in another store makes no difference...Why did you simply not ask a store manager why this was the case..you never know you could have negotiated a price match.

Swapping price tags is deception and I think it may even fall within the theft act 1968 although Blueskies is more qualified to know if its the case.

It seems that you obviously dont like the TKM as much as you say you do otherwise you wouldnt have risked doing it.To be fair on you this is probably more widescale than some would believe.The supermarkets self scans were quick to address the problems of items that were checked through following similar practices to what you did yourself.

They overcome this by making the scan not only read the barcodes but check the items weight on the bagging area.Problem solved for them.

Its important to remember that business are there to make money and usually have targets to meet...losses to them mean lower returns for their shareholders...this in turn means prices have to rise to make up the shortfalls.

At the end of the day what you saved on your shoes will inevitably cost more later (assuming that the others who do this are NOT caught)

Its the same with most things we buy......

There is a moral issue here as well as a money saving exercise to you.I ask you the question....would you do this again if you thought you would get away with it?

or has it been a lesson learned ?

You are lucky that TKM are predominantly out of town outlets....if this had been a town centre store you may have found yourself on a shopwatch ban !!

[Conniff]

..

[Lara blues]

Thanks for the replies. The incident was in the town´s centre shop, I must say it was a lesson learned.

[Lara blues]

I think you are right, my race is not an excuse. The incident happened in the Arndale shopping centre; lesson learned. Your messages are very useful, Thank you all. Regards, Lara

[MARTIN3030]

By the way I thought I should post this

The Fraud Act 2006 repealed the deception offences contained within the Theft Act 68 & 78.

 

Thanks to Paul from pinks for this info.

[suzieblooz]

What are your issues exactly, 2 threads in 2 different sections, slight varience on story http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-knowledge/120085-lara-blues-retail-loss.html :?:

[Conniff]

I think this thread is a wind up.

 

I am not comfortable with your many references to not being British. Are you trying to use this as an excuse or are you trying to say you were dealt with more harshly because of this?

 

No, I think they are trying to incite someone to say something racist.

[Conniff]

What are your issues exactly, 2 threads in 2 different sections, slight varience on story http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-knowledge/120085-lara-blues-retail-loss.html :?:

 

Quite -- as I have posted in the other thread, I think this is a wind up.

[rory32]

I've merged these two threads to keep your story consistant

[chocolatte]

For a start, I don't care what country you come from, you just don't waltz into a shop and start re-arranging the price tags, and second, you are in our country, therefore you should abide by our laws, if you don't want to be arrested for commiting a minor offence, then don't do it, it doesn't matter where you come from, it's not racism, it's the law, so stop trying to blame it on your race. You are obviously very articulate, so don't take us all for fools and claim that you were unaware of what you were doing.

And finally, you played the dumb card this time and got away with it, don't expect to get away with it again.

Next time you are unsure of a price in a shop, ask the assistants, that's what they are there for.

 

Okay, thanks for that X

[make them aktiv runners]

Very strange story. I cannot see how a well known high street retailer would

a) refuse to accept the correct payment

b) retain the goods themselves but not refund the customer

 

neither can I see how anyone can take off a sticker from one item without tearing it and manage to transfer it onto another item without it looking obvious.

 

The only thing I can see that could be in OP's favour is that the till operator did not check the barcode translation to the shoes (eg it may have said blue when the shoes were red).

 

All in I would agree that this is a incitement to other discussions.

[rory32]

cannot see how a well known high street retailer would

a) refuse to accept the correct payment

The payment was not correct due to the OP swapping price tickets around to make the items cheaper. Beginning and end of story.