3 Mobile Problems

[Matty130788]

Hi

 

The story

 

my current 12 month contract with three mobile was due to terminate on November 10th 2007. I called Three mobile on October 10th 2007 to give them 30 day notification of cancellation for my contract and they asked me if I wanted a PAC code to transfer my number to a new network (Which was really important to me because my number is used for so many things) they told me that this was valid for 30 days, I then asked the person to confirm that my contract would be cancelled at the end of the 12 month period and they confirmed this, and went through the terms and conditions saying that I could need to find another means of payment to pay the final bill they sent me .

 

On 1st November 2007 I went round my local town pricing up the best deals for a new mobile phone contract and went into a Three store and found that they had the best offers for new customers. I told the salesman that I currently had a contract with Three which was ending in 10 days time and he said that he could sell me a phone that day as a new customer which wouldn't be a problem, and I could simply set up my new mobile (which I took out a contract for on that day) and call Three and switch my number from the old contract to my new contract. When I got it home, set it up then called Three I found out I couldn't do this, but then I was stuck because the Three agent told me that I couldn't take my phone back because I had activated it. Which I was told to do so, so that I could set up the transfer of my number.

 

And to finish it off.....

 

I found out that my contract for my old phone would now have to be cancelled on 10th december because they told me I didn't request for my contract to be cancelled but just request a PAC code which is totally untrue because my conversation with the agent at the time after they offered me loads of upgrades and deals etc was "No I definatly want to cancel my contract I can get better deals elswhere" He then accepted offered to give me a PAC code, he told me that I would need to find another means of payment for my last bill and then put me through to an automated service which went through all the terms and conditions once more.

 

 

 

The Questions

 

Am I entitled to return this to the shop I bought it from because I really need a phone with the same number?

 

Secondly, do I have a valid case to dispute the cancellation date for my other contract?

 

 

Thanks

[buzby]

Tell me you backed up your cancellation request in writing as well? If you only did this by phone, then you you can be at their mercy in a battle of what was said or not.

 

The PAC code is formal notice of cancellation and once the code is issued and the process complete, your contract is ended and the final bill calculated. The problem is that for same-network number transfers, you don't use the PAC system, it is a simpler internal process.

 

As I understand it, you are saying the deal you were being offered was NOT based as an upgrade, but as a new customer only? In this case you should have been told that you could NOT take your number. If it was an upgrade however, you could.

 

From what you have explained, the problems were caused by the shop - assuming you explained you needed to keep your existing number, as because of their errors, you are in this current unsatisfactory system. I'd go back to them, ask to speak to the branch manager and have him sort it out.

[OrangePrimate]

Tell me you backed up your cancellation request in writing as well? If you only did this by phone, then you you can be at their mercy in a battle of what was said or not.

 

The PAC code is formal notice of cancellation and once the code is issued and the process complete, your contract is ended and the final bill calculated. The problem is that for same-network number transfers, you don't use the PAC system, it is a simpler internal process.

 

Sorry , not quite correct. The ISSUE of the PAC does not complete the process or indeed cancel the contract. The PAC is valid for 30 days and is given at the beginning of the 30 day notice period. It has to USED and given to the new Network, with the transfer of the mobile number being the completion of the process. this can be done anytime within the 30 day period. If the PAC is NOT USED, the PAC will expire and the original contract continues until either a request for disconnection is recieved or another PAC is issued, again 30 days notice/validity.

 

There doesnt have to be anything in writing in this case, as the PAC was issued the Network took the disconnection request verbally.

 

Pac codes are not used for 'inter-network' contract changes. the only way out of this one would be to use the PAC to transfer number to a PAYG sim on another network, then 'port' it back over to the new contract on 3, BUT, you will first have to check 3's policy on accepting 'port-ins' some networks insist it can only be done at point of connection, others, (like Orange) allow it to be done at any time.

 

Sorry this doesnt take some of the sting away, but it is an option to consider if you dont get anywhere with the 3 store.

[buzby]

Sorry OP, I beg to differ - and you are missing the subtlety of a situation that the networks themselves created.

 

When a PAC is requested (not issued) it is a formal notification from the subscriber that they are terminating service and will be taking their number with them to another network. The network can then issue the PAC code or not (due to incompetence or some other issue) HOWEVER, this does NOT affect the process of giving notice of contract termination - this has already been done, and the mobile connected to that contract should be offline on the original network at the expiry of the notice period (or earlier, if the port succeeds and takes place earlier). This allows the calculation of the final bill.

 

There have been instances of networks offering to port the number off to a pre-pay SIM (same network) as a way of not 'losing' a customer, however networks have been (unsuccessfully) trying to use this ploy as a way of keeping the contract going because of some lack of action on the original requesters part. Challenges to ensure the account closure on the original date haver been successful in this regard.

 

What you have pointed out is a slight anomaly - in that somehow if the PAC fails the contract continues. Networks use this to their advantage but in error. A customer should always cancel a contract in WRITING. But to avoid such sharp practice add to the letter of cancellation; "For the avoidance of doubt, my request for a PAC code is also be taken as a formal cancellation of my contract with you."

[OrangePrimate]

Sorry Buzby, on this one you are incorrect. dealing with these on a daily basis i think i do have some authority on the subject!!

 

The request for a PAC code IS giving notice of intention to quit the network, but if the code is not used the contract will not automatically end on the 30th day. and you will be hard pressed to find a Network that does that!

 

There are very good reasons for it too! If for some reason the customer hasnt made up their mind as to the network they are moving too, they 'forgot' about it, they were on holiday, they had personal issues, they changed their mind, and we hear them all! if for any of those and many more reasons the PAC is not used and the network still disconnected the account on day 30, the number is lost. It is gone, cannot be ported out.

 

The whole reason for a PAC is that the number is important to the customer. When requesting a PAC code the customer is told quite clearly that the code is valid for 30 days and if not used the contract will continue to run until either another code is requested/issued or notified that the number is not required and straight disconnection or transfer to PAYG is wanted.

 

The offer to transfer to PAYG is in your view, a negative one. The positive side is that if someone doesnt want to carry on with or be tied to a contract they can move the number to PAYG, full instructions again given, call in when sim recvd, tell the operator you are cancelling your contract and moving number to PAYG, all done and dusted, where exactly is the problem with that? there is no 'ploy' as you inferred.

 

The calculation of the final bill is done the month after disconnection to catch up with any call charges that may need to be included. it is NOT calculated on issue of the PAC or indeed 30 days later.

 

If, as you instruct the customer writes in to cancel the contract in the manner you suggest, they would need to state the disclaimer that if for any reason the PAC is not used, or there are any problems with the transfer (i.e recieving network not requesting in time) they would expect the account to be terminated on day 30 and that they accept the total loss of the mobile number in question.

the letter you suggest;- "For the avoidance of doubt, my request for a PAC code is also be taken as a formal cancellation of my contract with you." will not be accepted.

"formal NOTICE of cancelletion" again, the generation and issue of the PAC is NOT at that time the cancellation of the contract.

[buzby]

We'll just have to disagree. Having ported numbers extensively ever since the service commenced.

 

I can see where you are coming from, but unfortunately you have to split off the customers need from that of the network. You are saying if the network doesn't complete the PAC transfer, they will continue the contract and charge accordingly. You then say this is no ensure that the customer is not left without service or similarly stranded, all very laudable I'm sure - but the whole point of number ports is the customer wants OUT, for whatever reason they are ready to move and networks CS move into high gear to try and retain that customer.

 

In view of the time delays currently inherent in the system, there is time for them to play these games, but with the requirement that a transfer is soon be be down to a 2-hour window, the opportunity for networks to do this is vastly decreased.

 

What you should also point out is your experiences relate only to your network, and good or bad, not all of Orange processes are the same across networks and MVNOs. Of folk that I've spoken to, the majority want out of their contract, what happens to their number is secondary - and faced with the wholesale misuse and lack of reuse of mobile numbering ranges - much of 07973 lies empty (this was O's first NNG) and not reused. For the few who actually want to retain their numbers, porting is fine but with most only caring for the latest handset, many welcome getting away from premium SMS and the rest, and see a new number as a fresh beginning.

 

Back at the contract, it is easy to see why firms will make it complex to allow a customer to depart, that's why they have retentions departments to keep them. However, if a customer requests a PAC, then that is proof positive that the customer is intent of leaving, and no reasonable person would dispute this interpretation. The fact a network won't accept this at face value, is their problem.

 

Finally, your last paragraph - these are pointless frills, the trouble is folk are too lazy to write, and fail to realise they have no back up or proof to prove what transpired. What 'day 30' has to do with anything eludes me - I would expect it reasonable to assume that any notice be provided in tandem with the billing cycle, so 30-45 days is not unreasonable to ensure any network receives due notice of termination ready for the closure date. As for the emotive 'total loss of number' scenario - purleese, if you were that worried you could arrange for a renumber, porting off the number you want elsewhere, and be issued with a replacement with the service continuing as before. It's not the rocket science you make it out to be!

[OrangePrimate]

If a customer wants to leave a Network and are not really that bothered about the mobile number, its simple, 30 days notice of disconnection. they are given the date it will be switched off all doen and dusted.

The PAC should only be requested when the number IS important and to many many customers their number is extremely important to them. The request for a PAC is not proof positive that someone wants to leave! they will often come back and say they decided to renew their contract, or just let the pac expire and carry on as they are.

Not every customer see it all in a negative way like you Buzby! as for the 07973 numbers, that has any relevenace to this post how?

 

Your last paragraph makes absolutely no sense at all! please dont try to insult or patronise me, i am not making it out to be rocket science, it was all quite simple and it is obvious that you have the perspective of the consumer on the end of the process without the knowledge of how it is actually done.

 

Yes, we will have to just disagree, not meaning to be rude, but i have yet to read one single post from you where you concede that you may not be 100% correct on the subject!! instead we usually see a long post with mainly negative comments that you think somehow justifies your 'impression' of how things should be done, instead of how they are actually done and not so much of a detriment as you make out!

rant over

[zigster]

No wonder the original poster has disappeared......

[buzby]

No wonder the original poster has disappeared......

 

Which was the reason I delayed before posting this

 

The request for a PAC is not proof positive that someone wants to leave! they will often come back and say they decided to renew their contract, or just let the pac expire and carry on as they are.

 

And you do not see this in any way relevant to the fact the networks pull out all the stops to offer 'sweetener' deals for their Retentions Department to do all they can to prevent the customer from going? From the other side of the fence (as a consumer) this is extremely pertinent. As for the PAC, I have listened in shops (not Orange, I hasten to add) where a customer who has said they wanted to terminate their contract being told to apply for a PAC as this will set the ball rolling for the closure of their account. I agree that it is unnecessary if the number is of no consequence, but I have heard this in a P4u and O2 outlets, and more than once.

 

Not every customer see it all in a negative way like you Buzby! as for the 07973 numbers, that has any relevance to this post how?

 

Considering how much consumers can be disadvantaged by network operators, either through unfair SMS charges the customer has no way of controlling, collapsed cashback deals or fighting credit reference late payment flags, I seriously doubt anyone takes a happy-go-lucky approach (ie non 'negative') to entering into a mobile contract. People just want a mobile. My first cellular - a Motorola 8500X on BT Cellnet cost me £2,850. I had to take a bank loan to get it, but that was when the networks weren't allowed to deal with customers directly. Now that these ideals have largely disappeared, the direct selling of handsets and network connections along with commission deals has really complicated what was a very simple system. As to the reference to 07973 is was proof positive that Orange (along with other networks) take no interest in ensuring and end to mobile number wastage. When Orange launched in 1994 this code gave them almost 1 million numbers to play with, since then the network has taken further similar blocks, yet they never bothered to reuse numbers once vacated by the original user. When number porting was allowed, it was the networks that made the connection between the issue of a PAC and the customer going elsewhere, so they better to something.

 

Your last paragraph makes absolutely no sense at all! please don't try to insult or patronise me, i am not making it out to be rocket science, it was all quite simple and it is obvious that you have the perspective of the consumer on the end of the process without the knowledge of how it is actually done.

 

I wouldn't dream of doing either, so I fail to see why you feel that my opinion of an industry is somehow critical of you as a person. As for my 'perspective' being that of a consumer, you couldn't be more wrong. Indeed, you'll see I am often shouted at for being on the side OF the industry! So my level approach much be working!

 

Yes, we will have to just disagree, not meaning to be rude, but i have yet to read one single post from you where you concede that you may not be 100% correct on the subject!! instead we usually see a long post with mainly negative comments that you think somehow justifies your 'impression' of how things should be done, instead of how they are actually done and not so much of a detriment as you make out!

 

Well that certainly was a rant - but at least you realised it was one. As for my admitting to be 'wrong' I believe I have always done so when there is a genuine error. However, I'll take a guess that your involvement in this industry is within the fast year or two? I've been embroiled in it since the days of Post Office Radiophone (1977) and the National PMR companies that pre-dated the arrival of analogue cellular in 1984. The same goes for the national radiopaging networks, then the public Telepoint services that all came and went (including 'Rabbit' the forerunner to Orange). Since then, my day job has involved me looking at the development of TACS, GSM, WAP, GPRS, EDGE and UMTS, and how it is sold and marketed to the general public.

 

Therefore, with some two-years short of my thirty years in mobile communications, I'd say my experience over this time exceeds yours - and for that, I make no apologies! Since none of this has been done in the employ of a single network or manufacturer, I would suggest that whilst I cannot comment on how individual networks may operate their bespoke back-office systems, my experience alone would place me in a better position than you.

[julesroolz]

Hi everyone,

 

I really just had to post here because I just had the most unbelievable experience with 3, not unrelated to the discussion here.

 

I have an 18 month contract with 3 which comes up for renewal in May 2009. In January 2009 I contacted them to confirm when my contract ended as I couldn't remember and ended up getting talked into an upgrade and extending my contract. As soon as I came off the phone I regretted it and disliked the pressure I had felt so didn't want to continue with their service. Therefore when the new phone arrived I sent it back and both phoned and wrote to them confirming that I did not want to extend my contract and wanted to exit in May as per my original agreement. IMPORTANTLY I sent the letter recorded delivery.

 

In March I contacted them because my mobile was playing up and they asked why I wasn't using my new one. I explained that I'd cancelled that one and sent the phone back. The operator I spoke to (in mumbai of course) said no, that wasn't so, they had no such notification from me. I got into a big argument with her and had actually forgotten at that point that I had sent the letter (and that it was recorded delivery).

 

Now here's the unbelievable part.....and I really can't quite believe how audacious this is.

 

As I was talking to her I was going through my papers and found the letter, but that was a good 5 minutes into her protests that they had received no notification from me and there was no record of it on her screen. When I found it and told her I'd sent it recorded delivery she suddenly said 'oh here it is on my screen, yes, a letter from you'.

 

It must be the policy there to deny receiving letters of cancellation, why would a lowly operator lie otherwise? I was absolutely knocked sideways....I'm guessing they can get away with it because of a lack of regulation in those out-of-country call centres.

 

Of course they immediately removed the upgrade from my account and said my contract would end in May, thank goodness I sent it recorded delivery.

 

 

Beat that!

[sarah33]

My experience with 3 is for mobile broadband, i signed a 2year contract and for the first yr it was great, however then the problems started and i could not get connection at all. After trying to speak to themn 3 or 4 times i was offered no solution so i went to sky for my broadband. I have now been receiving letters re court if i dont pay up!

[buzby]

You missed out quite a bit - so you reneged on 1 years of your contract because of bad service... and if it goes to court you expect to win? What about your trashed credit file, or is that of no consequence too?

[sarah33]

Well i am not paying for 6 mths service that i have never received and not only that i have paid another service provider now as we had no internet connection, as i have said i spoke to 3 a number of times and received no help what so ever, with regards to my credit file to be honest it doesnt really bother me if it means standing my corner and fighting the rip offs!

[buzby]

You're perfectly entitled to do that if you wish. The problem is you entered into a legally binding contract to comply with the terms and conditions set down by the network. It begs the question why do all this then ignore it, opening the door for what some would call harassment than can last many years?

 

The idea is to find some form of agreement that suits both sides - ignoring it because of a dispute you feel is justified now, may well be a different case when the debt is sold on and the enforcers come knocking.

 

When you're not covered by contract you can safely ignore these obligations, but not otherwise.

[sarah33]

Dont know if i said before but as soon as the problem arose last Oct i telephoned them numerous times to discuss the problem and spoke to foreign gentlemen who to be fair did not seem to understand the problem, i then wrote a letter and their response was they were very sorry but i still had tp pay. Now im not sure what they expected me to do, surely they should have sorted the problem during one of the calls i made to them.

[buzby]

They can only provide service though their network of radio transmitters. Your location or the materials you house is made of all conspire to block this signal - and then there's interference for a myriad of other sources - none of it under their control.

 

Your agreement with them is based on they coverage they offer - there are no guarantees about the ability to receive service from them, and is not the basis for cancelling or refunds, ONLY if the network is unavailable (if your local base station is offline, for example).

 

Quite what you would expect the network to do in your situation - build another base station? It may seem harsh, but wireless networks are no different from any other transmitted service. You don't get a refund on your TV licence if BBC2 is unavailable - but if you had wired broadband and there was no service, you WOULD rightfully expect and receive a refund for unavailability of service, wireless - for obvious reasons - the an exception.

[awire]

They can only provide service though their network of radio transmitters. Your location or the materials you house is made of all conspire to block this signal - and then there's interference for a myriad of other sources - none of it under their control.

 

Your agreement with them is based on they coverage they offer - there are no guarantees about the ability to receive service from them, and is not the basis for cancelling or refunds, ONLY if the network is unavailable (if your local base station is offline, for example).

 

Quite what you would expect the network to do in your situation - build another base station? It may seem harsh, but wireless networks are no different from any other transmitted service. You don't get a refund on your TV licence if BBC2 is unavailable - but if you had wired broadband and there was no service, you WOULD rightfully expect and receive a refund for unavailability of service, wireless - for obvious reasons - the an exception.

 

I had to register for this.....

 

I do believe she said the first year was fine then lost connection, not signal, and if they are unwilling to help her resolve her issue then under the sales of goods act the product is no longer fit for purpose.

 

Also regarding your tiff with OrangePrimate

Since then, my day job has involved me looking at the development of TACS, GSM, WAP, GPRS, EDGE and UMTS, and how it is sold and marketed to the general public.

 

I'm guessing your an old timer so I'll be gentle. Looking at the development of some SIM technologies does not make you an expert with Port Authorisation Codes and how networks deal with them.

 

Since none of this has been done in the employ of a single network or manufacturer, I would suggest that whilst I cannot comment on how individual networks may operate their bespoke back-office systems, my experience alone would place me in a better position than you

 

If you have never worked for an network or a manufacturer what experience would you be talking about? oh do you mean the listening in to conversations is shops you mentioned about? hmmmm (in a whisper) pssssst not sure that counts!!

[locutus]

You registered for a 2 year old thread my friend (4 years from when the OP had issues and didn't return to post how / if they were resolved)

 

Still, Welcome to CAG and have a browse around the telecoms forum. I'm sure your help will be welcomed by many