PCN for for Loading Bay when Loading !

[fluffycloud]

We are a small family business and this morning, my husband parked in our high street in a parking area which has some loading bay spaces and some pay and display spaces, as the lines are all 'worn off/not clear' (typical in the Medway Towns) he paid for a pay and display ticket for one hour just to cover him...this was at 9.17am, he went to do his pick up, came back a couple of minutes later and at 09.21am there was a Penalty Charge Notice for £60 (reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days) stating Contravention Code 25 'reasonable cause to believe that the following parking contravention occured: parking in a loading bay during restricted hours without loading' Its ridiculous he was in a WHITE ESTATE CAR obviously a work vehicle!!!

We have taken a photo of the 'loading bay/parking space' and the words 'loading bay are clearly NOT Visible'

HELP I remember watching a documentary about PCNs being unenforceable due to badly done lines/non apparent lines etc can anyone advise me out there PLEASE !!!

[fluffycloud]

HELP Anyone?

[buzby]

An estate care is only obviously an estate car - not a work vehicle. (Although it does help if you have a trading name painted on the side). Before this type of ticket is written, the PA usually 'hovers' and if there has been no activity in loading, or if the driver remains out of view, it is treated as parking. You can sometimes challenge this if the person at the address near where the ticket was obtained confirms a delivery in order for it to be cancelled, but if not - you're stuck.

[fluffycloud]

An estate care is only obviously an estate car - not a work vehicle. (Although it does help if you have a trading name painted on the side). Before this type of ticket is written, the PA usually 'hovers' and if there has been no activity in loading, or if the driver remains out of view, it is treated as parking. You can sometimes challenge this if the person at the address near where the ticket was obtained confirms a delivery in order for it to be cancelled, but if not - you're stuck.

 

I was just making a point that it is an Estate Car which is obviously a work vehicle because its a commercial estate car with signwriting on it!

 

We have a 'witness/our customer' who is happy to prove we were at his premises collecting and delivering for those few minutes.

 

Its the line thing I am getting at, the lines are not there!! No visible loading bay markings or signs anywhere, its ridiculous you are penalised for being a worker and tax payer in this country....

[buzby]

If you were only loading and unloading, there was no need to purchase a parking ticket. By doing this you were confirming you were Parking and not loading or unloading! There would be no issue of yellow lines being visible. From the point of view of other drivers that do deliveries, they often cannot because of cars parking where they shouldn't. You might have to explain why you bought and displayed a parking ticket if you had no intention of doing so (especially when in a loading bay) but a statement from the customer confirming the delivery should suffice.

[fluffycloud]

If you were only loading and unloading, there was no need to purchase a parking ticket. By doing this you were confirming you were Parking and not loading or unloading! There would be no issue of yellow lines being visible. From the point of view of other drivers that do deliveries, they often cannot because of cars parking where they shouldn't. You might have to explain why you bought and displayed a parking ticket if you had no intention of doing so (especially when in a loading bay) but a statement from the customer confirming the delivery should suffice.

 

He bought a pay and display ticket because as you imagine a row of parking bays, there are a couple of bays that 'used to be' loading bays, I say used to be as the markings have all but disappeared through wear. Therefore just to make sure, he bought a pay and display ticket to be covered from all angles!! I just begrudge paying the fine then appealing.

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

He bought a pay and display ticket because as you imagine a row of parking bays, there are a couple of bays that 'used to be' loading bays, I say used to be as the markings have all but disappeared through wear. Therefore just to make sure, he bought a pay and display ticket to be covered from all angles!! I just begrudge paying the fine then appealing.

You don't pay the charge then appeal. If you pay you have no right of appeal.

You need to get clear on what constitutes loading and unloading.

You also need to be clear on inadequate signage of restrictions.

I recommend you look at the key cases on the PATAS (inside London) and NPAS (outside London) web sites.

There is nothing to stop you cross-referencing cases (eg using a London one if you are outside London).

Then there is the wording of the PCN itself, can you scan and reproduce it here?

[green_and_mean]

The contravention is not loading in a loading bay the type of vehicle is of no relevance unless the contravention is 23. Even if it was a bright orange TNT lorry it would still get a ticket if it was not loading or unloading. As for penalising a tax payer and worker do you suggest just those on the dole get parking tickets?

You argument about the lines is perfectly valid but stick to that rather than going off on a tangent about other matters that dont affect the validity of the PCN.

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

The contravention is not loading in a loading bay the type of vehicle is of no relevance unless the contravention is 23. Even if it was a bright orange TNT lorry it would still get a ticket if it was not loading or unloading. As for penalising a tax payer and worker do you suggest just those on the dole get parking tickets?

You argument about the lines is perfectly valid but stick to that rather than going off on a tangent about other matters that dont affect the validity of the PCN.

This comes across as a tad patronising and unhelpful. I hope that wasn't the intent.

[fluffycloud]

As for penalising a tax payer and worker do you suggest just those on the dole get parking tickets?

 

No not at all but I was just simply ranting that as a business owner we pay enough taxes (more than an 'employed person') and we were just going about our normal business and get penalised for working... I made no reference whatsoever to anyone as you put it 'on the dole'!!

 

Sorry dont want to argue with anyone, just wanted some advice from the well informed contributors to this site.

[fluffycloud]

This comes across as a tad patronising and unhelpful. I hope that wasn't the intent.

 

I Couldn't agree with you more thank you for your support!

[fluffycloud]

Can anyone tell me if I pay the penalty charge at the reduced rate can I appeal at the same time? Its just I would rather pay the reduced rate and appeal rather than lose the appeal and have to pay £60 instead.

[patdavies]

Can anyone tell me if I pay the penalty charge at the reduced rate can I appeal at the same time? Its just I would rather pay the reduced rate and appeal rather than lose the appeal and have to pay £60 instead.

 

No you can't. There is no appeal if you pay.

 

Trying to pay the reduced rate and also appealing is known as having your cake and eating it.

[fluffycloud]

No you can't. There is no appeal if you pay.

 

Trying to pay the reduced rate and also appealing is known as having your cake and eating it.

 

Thanks for that... they seem to get you all ways!! think I will just have to pay up and shut up!!

[green_and_mean]

This comes across as a tad patronising and unhelpful. I hope that wasn't the intent.

 

What is patronising and unhelpful about my post it is factual and advises the OP to appeal on the grounds of dodgy markings rather than what he considers is an obvious goods vehicle or the fact that they pay taxes neither of which will win an appeal.

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

What is patronising and unhelpful about my post it is factual and advises the OP to appeal on the grounds of dodgy markings rather than what he considers is an obvious goods vehicle or the fact that they pay taxes neither of which will win an appeal.

When I post, I tend to think about what I would find helpful if I was asking the question.

 

Bit like the dreaded question when shopping with the other half "does my bum look big in this?" The unadulterated truth is not always the most helpful.

[fluffycloud]

What is patronising and unhelpful about my post it is factual and advises the OP to appeal on the grounds of dodgy markings rather than what he considers is an obvious goods vehicle or the fact that they pay taxes neither of which will win an appeal.

 

He is actually a she............ also I was not going to use the 'we pay taxes' in my appeal, I was merely ranting that again its always the same workers/business owners get penalised constantly just for earning a living.. thats all no detriment to anyone else!!

 

I have been posting on this site for over a year now and I have read 1000's of posts where people can quite rightly rant about things that have affected them after all it is a Consumers Forum!

 

I have decided after much research tonight to appeal against the ticket as I have had the pictures printed of the space that my husband took and it says very very faded on the road marking 'pay and display'!!

[buzby]

I'm afraid 'faded' doesn't provide much of a defence - it would have to be a high percentage (80% or more) before it could be argued the line was so illegible as to be invisible. After all, the line only tells the driver to look at the regulation plates which DO need to be fully visible for enforcement to succeed.

 

However all this is academic. The situation as described related to a parking ticket being purchased for use in a loading bay. A warden would have every right to ticket immediately, based on no driver seen loading/unloading (irrespective of vehicle type) and a valid parking permit displayed, which confirmed the driver's intention to actually 'park'. As noted earlier, if unloading etc, there would be no reason to purchase any parking ticket.

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

If you are going to appeal, the golden rule is to appeal on the grounds that are most likely to get the ticket cancelled. These may not be the same as the grounds that make you feel aggrieved.

[fluffycloud]

I'm afraid 'faded' doesn't provide much of a defence - it would have to be a high percentage (80% or more) before it could be argued the line was so illegible as to be invisible. After all, the line only tells the driver to look at the regulation plates which DO need to be fully visible for enforcement to succeed.

 

However all this is academic. The situation as described related to a parking ticket being purchased for use in a loading bay. A warden would have every right to ticket immediately, based on no driver seen loading/unloading (irrespective of vehicle type) and a valid parking permit displayed, which confirmed the driver's intention to actually 'park'. As noted earlier, if unloading etc, there would be no reason to purchase any parking ticket.

 

Having researched this, its apparent that the law states you have up to 30 minutes to load/unload in a loading bay as its fairly obvious delivery drivers for instance have to get paperwork signed etc.

 

The markings were 95% disappeared, that area of the six parking bays has always been confusing, with the markings being non apparent for some time now its hard to see which of the 6 bays are pay and display and which are loading... thats why a pay and display ticket was purchased and now looking at the photos he was actually parked in a pay and display space! So the ticket for loading/unloading etc is crap!

[fluffycloud]

Just a quick note, in our local rag yesterday there is a current investigation underway as to if our Parking attendants in our council are targeted as allegedly an 'ex warden' has said they have to issue '7 tickets' a day!!!

 

See they get you every which way they can!!

[green_and_mean]

7 a day is that all!! Thats less than 1 an hour! I challenge you to walk for 1 hr and not find a single car in contravention its rarely possible to do so except on the odd occasion.

All Councils have a bench mark for issuing PCNs based on previous years tickets and traffic surveys on compliance. The Council then will set a buget based on this figure which will then be averaged out over the year per PA which in this case is 7 a day. If what you are saying is true then one could look at it the other way and once the PA had done his 7 he could go sit in the cafe all day! If there were no bench marks a contractor could come in take a couple of million £ off the Council for enforcement and let the PAs sit in the park all day reading the paper. Contractors get financially penalised by Councils for issuing cancelled PCNs due to officer error so its not in their interest to encourage officers to issue unlawful PCNs.

[carlhorn]

Typical Medway Towns as you say, I'm from Walderslade, not surpised matey!!

The lines are all like that around Medway, stupid Medway Council!!!