HFC/Weightmans - old Marbles card debt - Statutory Demand withdrawn now claimform

[pt2537]

http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/courtfinder/forms/ex305_e0907.pdf

 

hi there,

 

its a while since i did this so bear with me,

 

an application and fee for additional directions

a draft order

Listing fee - what is this?

A proposed timetable for trial - what do I need to for this?

An estimate of costs - Do I need to submit this as I am the defendant.

 

 

 

ok, the judge ordered the direction on a N24 form yes? and they failed to comply with the judges order from my reading of this, if this is the case, did the judges order state what would happen if they didnt comply, if it said their claim shall be struck out then you should have asked the court upon their non compliance to do so

 

its a bit late now but needs to be brought up with the court at the trial if they have not provided anything

 

For the listing fees you need to check with the court to see what, if any fee is payable

 

costs need to be broken down and charged at the LiP rate of £9.75 per hour

 

as for directions i think the only directions that are needed are (if they have not supplied the documents requested ) is a re order of the original directions,

 

i hope this helps a little

[bennieee]

and so to update..... today was the big day in Court and I lost will be back over the weekend to add details...

 

Thank you to everyone that helped, you all made the process so much easier.

[pt2537]

WHAT???????????

 

~How could you have lost with that agreement??? it sucked more than a cheap whore,

 

im at a loss as i would have said it would have been an open and shut case

 

i would be interested to hear what happened

[bennieee]

In a nutshell, the Judge decided that it was probable that the terms and contitions were originally on the reverse of the document therefore formed part of the agreement and were deemed enforceable.

 

He said that the Default notice would have been rec'd by me as it was auto generated as per the bank's witness statement and that the amount corresponded with the amount on the last statment that it was correct - he would not enter into the fact that the amount contained penalty charges.

 

He also said that the agreement was legible

 

He did however state that I should be commended for the research etc so thank you Paul for your help.

 

He amended the other sides costs as he said that the case did not appear to have had the input from a senior solicitor so the costs related to that were removed.

[pt2537]

oh, ok, well, i didnt think they produced the T&Cs only the application form?

 

if that was the case, the judge made an error on a point of law IMHO and as such would give rights to appeal the decision

 

 

The Bar probono department does accept applications for legal advice under limited circumstances and the pro bono dept would supply you a barrister (if your application was successful) free of charge AFAIK

 

may be worth looking at

[creditcardmug]

So does this mean that we can't put them to strict proof of anything now,

like it's ok if they probably sent, ok if the terms were probably there.

I'm furious about this, is this british justice?

[Alphageek]

the Judge decided that it was probable that the terms and contitions were originally on the reverse of the document..

 

He said that the Default notice would have been rec'd by me as it was auto generated as per the bank's witness statement.

 

Sorry to hear this bennieee.

 

Paul, what exactly does putting someone to "strict proof" mean if the Judge can just decide on the balance of probability and take it as read that a banks automatic systems will never fail?

 

If possible a strategy to counteract these arguments (when used by a bank) needs developing. Ideally, a POC or counterclaim written in such a way as to give the Judge little room to assume such things (that's what I thought strict proof was).

 

There may already be some case law where this is settled?

[creditcardmug]

bennieee

If there's any way this can be appealed without any cost to yourself i urge you to do it for all our sakes, i still havent calmed down yet after reading about that ludicrous judgement

[pt2537]

Well, firstly, i think we need to put this into perspective,

 

we do not know what actually happened in the trial, did they produce a copy of the terms and conditions and was their arguement sufficient to convince the judge that the documents were part of the same agreement? if that was the case then it is for the judge to decide the issues of fact according to the law.

 

it is very difficult to give a reasoned judgment on why someone loses a case without actually being there and knowing what was said.

 

that said , i think , if there are grounds to do so and only benniee will know this, then an application to the Bar Pro Bono department is a must

 

we must remember that, it is for us to present a reasoned argument to the judge and to back our claims up with case law etc, the judge will not know the technicalities of the CCA and the regulations made under it so its up to us to present a strong enough case to dismiss the other sides case

[creditcardmug]

bump

[bennieee]

There were t and c's which arrived as part of the claim form - they were not sent as part of the original CCA request, only the front page of the application form - I think that they are mentioned earlier in the thread - the defence that Paul very kindly wrote made reference to them - they were smaller in font size, different font etc and no reference was made to them being on the reverse on the application form.

 

They did have rates etc on them but as no statments were supplied after either requesting them as part of a CPR request or after an order was made by the court I was unable to compare to see if the interest rates tallied - The judge said that rates change anyeay so this would be irrelevant and said that he felt that the order had been satified by the partial bundle of statements provided - they basically covered the time that the account was in arrears.

 

It came down really to the fact that the Judge decided that the t and c were sent to me, were legible even though the copies that they supplied were not - the Judge said that I would need to produce the copy sent as part of the response by the Solicitors to prove that it was not legible - not sure how to do this as it was not ever rec'd by me.

 

The fact that the t and C were on the reverse was based on hearsay as the witness from the bank had no idea - only that as he said they def related to my application form - he had phone a colleague and relayed the info from his colleague after the conversation to the judge.

 

The default notice shown in court had an incorrect digit in my address and it was by the banks witness own admission a reconstructed copy and again as I did not have the original it was allowed

 

The Judge decided under a cpr rule that post is deemed to have arrived if sent by first class post so therefore being auto generated would be sufficient that I had rec'd it.

 

so....

 

It is frustrating but I am glad that that part is over. Being in a court room was actually not anywhere near as intimidating as I imagined and it was in a way an interesting experience.

 

I have however obviously been landed now with costs on top of the original amount and of course if I appeal and lose then there would be additional costs.

 

The Judge asked about payment and said that unless I could offer a substantial amount each month then a charging order will be obtained.

 

Does anyone know what happens now - I was not given the opportunity to discuss income/expenditure, does this happen once I recive details through the post of the Judgement? - I did ask the Judge but he said that he would not discuss an amount again unless it was substantial. He did however say that he expected the claimant would 'leave me alone' after a charging order was obtained.

 

Is it best to start making installment payments now and do you know if I would send these to the bank or the sols?

 

TIA

[pt2537]

as i previously stated, you really need to seek legal advice and obtain representation for an appeal, the decision in my opinion was wrong and you should as a matter of urgency look at getting advice

 

Home check this website out and i would get in contact as a matter of extreme urgency