Garry Refer Drawer Kettle

[henrysdad]

How nice to use someone else's name in the absolute certainty that they do not exist!

 

Anyway, after 3 months with my toe in the water I have now jumped in with both feet. Letter before Action letter sent on my wife's account on 21st June claiming £4,646-08. Because of long delay in sending statements, I gave them 10 days to respond before a claim will be issued.

 

I am also issuing a Court Claim today on my own account for £1,783-86.

 

Interestingly, after they received the recorded delivery letter before action on my account, I discovered the next time I logged in online that they had re-designated my "Halifax Bank Account" to a "Card Cash Account" and zeroed my overdraft facility. As it happens my Debit card/ Guarantee card expires at the end of this month too. They also prevented me from accessing my two other savings type accounts. When I put my Halifax "Websaver" card in the hole in the wall, the machine swallowed up the card with a message that it was an "unauthorised Access" even though I was only checking the balance which was and is around £400-00. All this was without warning.

 

As a result of this action I have amended my claim to include an Application that they are directed to operate my account as previously with the previous o/d limit to prevent a situation where they can get away with taking prejudicial action based on the conduct of the account solely caused by their charges.

 

Finally, there were some questions on the forum a week or two ago concerning whether or not Statutory Interest is included in the £5,000 Small Claims limit. I telephoned the Court and they have assured me that the interest is not taken into account in calculating the £5,000 - which is good news.

[henrysdad]

Regarding the last point I should make clear that this applies solely to the 8% Statutory Interest which is calculated upon issuing the Claim. It does not apply to the interest wrongly debited to the account as a result of the illegal charges.

[Bookworm]

OMG, they didn't? The absolute sods!

 

I assume that you had been lurking for a bit and only now started a thread? I am just a bit worried that you are posting straight away about issuing claim? You have sent letters for your own account first, haven't you?

 

I would be hopping mad if they had done this to me, and am amazed at your apparent calm. Well done, you. You seem to be in control, do keep us posted!

[henrysdad]

Yes, both lots of statements were requested in early May and I have sent the letters. However, the principle about giving Notice before commencing Proceedings I think is relevant only where costs are an issue. Although I have no wish to be the first to try it, I have a feeling that as the underlying intent is to recover illegal charges you could get away with filing a claim without warning. I dont think the 8% interest would be at risk as it is a Statutory right once you have proved your claim.

 

Also, there is an interesting difference between the response to my wife's claim and my own. She has rec'd a very pleasant customer service type letter (despite the amount) whereas I had a much more stark rejection of a refund. Even though they say they are looking at my wife's position I have told them that the timetable will still apply.

[henrysdad]

I decided to go down to the County Court office to issue my Claim which I am doing this morning.

 

They have only three more days before a claim is issue on my wife's charges.

[henrysdad]

I delivered the Claim form and the schedule of charges in triplicate and The Court have issued the Claim.

 

Incidentally, if any of you have been rendered impecunious by Howard and his friends and the £120-00 claim fee looks daunting, it is well worthwhile considering filing an Application for exemption or reduction of the issue fee. Although there are some specific rules of qualification, the Court staff have a considerable flexibility in how they are interpreted. Of course Howard will have to pay up in the end; but it does not help if you dont have the cash to put the infuriating fellow in Court in the first place. The reference number of the form on the Court Service website is EX160.

 

In my post yesterday was an unsigned letter from Denise Waite, Customer Care Manager at Retail Bank Collections. This letter had 4 different typefaces on it which suggested to me that it was an edited standard template. The letter was supposedly in response to my letter of 13th June whereas it referred to the OFT which I had mentioned only in my letter of 13th May. Ms Waite quoted the OFT report in that it said that default charges over and above £12-00 should be considered unfair.

 

The final sentence of that letter is a gem and I quote "If I do not hear from you within the next 8 weeks I will assume you are satisfied with our response to your letter." Interestingly, there is a proper landline telephone number on the letter.

[henrysdad]

Well another letter received from the Halifax - this time on my wife's account - and signed by Kim Hollyoak, review Manager, Customer Relations in Leeds. She has offered a goodwill gesture of £320-00 in full and final settlement. We have faxed already saying that we are very happy to receive the £320-00 but only as a part payment. This claim is for £4,710.08

 

Anyway, the 10 days we gave them is up today and I will be filing a claim - may be online this time as I did mine at the Court. In a way, I am glad they have not settled this under notice as the Section 69 interest amounts to £577.93 making a grand total of £5,288.01.

 

They are all bad cases but this is a particularly graphic example of the immorality of this charging system. My wife has worked for the same employer for over 30 years and over £2K gets credited into her account every month. She has an o/d limit of £200.00 (a joke) and her account is overlimit some months by no more than a few £10's and £100 to £200 at the most and yet look at the accumulated charges! When we looked at shifting the account a couple of times one of the conditions was that there had been no unpaid items.

 

Watch this space.

[henrysdad]

I have just checked with the Court and the Halifax have filed their Acknowledgment of Service on 7th July 2006 - so the countdown begins.

[henrysdad]

I have today received the written form of Acknowledgement. If anyone is interested the address for service is given as:-

 

Hbos Plc

Legal Services - Retail Division

Trinity Road

Halifax

Wesy Yorkshire

HX1 2RG.

 

As with others on this forum my form was signed by "A O'Brien (RAH)" described as "Head of Legal Services - Retail Division - HBOS Plc"

[blinkyblinkyblonk]

I have today received the written form of Acknowledgement. If anyone is interested the address for service is given as:-

 

Hbos Plc

Legal Services - Retail Division

Trinity Road

Halifax

Wesy Yorkshire

HX1 2RG.

 

As with others on this forum my form was signed by "A O'Brien (RAH)" described as "Head of Legal Services - Retail Division - HBOS Plc"

 

 

not long now henrysdad,

 

I too had the same on my halifax current account, changed to a cardcash account

arrears are all clear now but,

first i was told i could operate the account as a cardcash account

and then i am told its being closed!!!!

 

some of the advisors in customer relations dept need a kick up the you know where!!!!

[henrysdad]

That's interesting blinkyblinkyblonk.

 

I have made the re-instatement of the account to normal working as one of my applications on the Claim. I am guessing that they will try to settle financially and bypass the other aspects. I will refuse to settle on that basis. At the moment I can see the list of balances but cannot get into the statement section. The Current - sorry Cardcash - account says "not available" and the the websaver and liquid gold accounts (both in credit) say "awaiting details". My original overdraft limit was due for review at the end of September.

 

This will not be easy for them as if I add up my o/d balance and subtract the other two account balances as well as the Claim for all the charges, then my account is within the old overdraft limit which they only cancelled after I threatened them with action. The point of principle here is that they have taken action prejudicial to me on the basis of judgements made on an account put out of order solely by their charges. On the assumption that they do not do this with customers whose accounts are not out of order, they will have a tough time in proving their case. I am quite prepared to fight it out in Court.

[henrysdad]

The Court accepted the Claim on my wifes account today. This turned out to be a little tricky. I have posted previously that the Court had confirmed that if the Section 69 interest takes the amount claimed over £5,000 then the case can still be allocated as a Small Claim. However, what they did not say was that the issue fee is calculated on the total figure.

 

This meant that the fee rose from £120-00 to £250-00 as the total claimed was around £5,500-00. This would have delayed the case as we dont have the extra dosh at the moment. I was therefore faced with amending the proceedings by removing all reference to the Section 69 Interest and throwing away nearly £600-00 or away splitting the action into two cases which would still have incurred two £120-00 fees.

 

I sought the advice of a Court official off the record, I was told that he or she used to advise Claimants to delete the Section 69 interest from the front of the claim but leave the detailed claim for the interest in the Particulars of Claim.

 

So that's what I did. The Claim will be sent out tomorrow and deemed served by 18th July I presume.

 

Here's hoping.

[della]

Hi,

Interesting reading, your thread. I can't belive they are treating you in this way. Are you not tempted to close all the other accounts, at least you can get to your money then?!!!!

Hang in there. I know you'll come off best in the end.

[henrysdad]

I have had another threatening letter today telling me to settle the o/d by some date in August. The incredible thing is that none of their letters make any reference to my own letters to them, or to the proceedings which their own legal department have acknowledged. It is as if I am being dealt with two parallel parts of their business where their paths never cross.

[henrysdad]

I am checking the online details daily now, but nothing credited yet; though they have until 3rd August to file their Defence.

[henrysdad]

Well, in the post yesterday was a letter from Claire McBride, Review Manager Customer Relations. This is on my wife's claim for £5,000+ and they have now increased their offer from £320-00 to £954-00. This is just as attractive as the first offer and will not be accepted.

 

The Claim has already been served in any event. As usual in our experience, correspondence form the Halifax never refers to our threats of, or actual, legal action.

[henrysdad]

I tried to telephone Claire McBride today on the number she gave on her letter to my wife. The person who answered said it was not a name that meant anything to her!

 

Unfortunately, due to Court proceedures they have only just issued that claim today. It will be deemed as having been served on 22nd July.

 

The troubkle is that we will not now see this money till the second half of August when we could have used some of it for the holidays. I offered them by phone and fax an offer to settle for the full amount less the Sect 69 interest which would save them nearly £600 provided that the money is in the account by close of business on Tuesday 25th July.

 

I am not holding my breath!

[henrysdad]

Still nothing on my account yet. Nor any defence received or even a reply to all my letterrs and faxes.

 

Close of business tomorrow is the expiry time for the offer I sent them on my wife's account.

[henrysdad]

VICTORY NUMBER ONE FOR HENRYSDAD

 

Following the usual pattern, I have heard nothing apart from the acknowledgement and intention to defend - that was on 6th July 2006. Until this afternoon when when I checked online I could see the balance on my account had fallen by about £1800. I cannot actually see the make up of the account as to how the deposit(s) were made up as they have barred me from going behind the My Portfolio/balance page.

 

So my situation now is that if they re-instated my overdraft which was removed during this process, I would have £350 available. As it is, I still owe them £150 but I think there are 2 or 3 charges after the Claim which will need to be sorted - when I get to see the detail on the account of course.

 

Needless to say, the battle goes on as there were 3 other legs to my Claim - but at least they have paid up. Now we just need to get my wife's much bigger Claim paid.

[henrysdad]

Although they have paid up on my claim, I still do not have the breakdown so I will telephone the Court if there is nothing in today's post.

 

Having refused their two offers of £300ish and £900ish against my wife's claim of £5,500, Halifax then ignored our offer of paying the Claim and costs without the Sect 69 interest as an immediate settlement without admission of liability. Crazy really as that will cost them an extra £600.

 

This is the more exciting Claim as its much bigger and most of it will be a credit balance.

[MARTIN3030]

Exiting reading.

 

I agree its hard to see the logic I mean fair enough if they dont think you are serious about taking them to court you would understand them being so stubborn but they know that you mean business !!!

 

will watch with much interest

[henrysdad]

This message is primarily for jonni2bad and martin3030 though it may well be of wider interest.

 

Jonni, the 6 legs of the 4th paragraph of my Claim read as follows:

 

*************

4) Accordingly, the Claimant claims:

(i) The return of the amounts debited in respect of charges in the sum of

£1,772-00 together with £11-86 interest charged thereon.

(ii) Court costs of £120-00

(iii) Interest pursuant to Section 69 County Courts Act as set out on the schedule

(iv) A declaration from this Honourable Court that the Term of the contract

leading to the application of the charges is unenforceable.

(v) The Claimant further seeks an Order that the Defendant Company must

operate the three accounts in all respects as if the unlawful charges had not

been debited to account number 12345678.

(iv) The Claimant also seeks an Order that the Defendant must not record any

deleterious information regarding the Claimant within their own records or

with outside Agencies as a result of the operation of the account whilst the

unlawful charges were debited to it.

**************

 

As I see it, the bank does not want to argue the validity of the charges in Court, which is why all Claims for refund are being paid. On the basis of my Claim - and I suspect jonni's as well, they will be forced to confront the validity of the charges if they are to argue against the other legs of my Claim - which is why I have used the exact wording shown.

 

I do not see how they can risk having this heard in Court without opening the whole can of worms they seem desperate to keep tight shut.

 

They have paid my Claim into my current account which they have prevented me from accessing and their pretty standard letter of settlement included a paragraph as follows:

 

*********

"I will write to the Court to let them know that your Claim has been settled and would be grateful if you would do the same"

*********

 

They have until 3rd August to enter a Defence. I have checked daily with the Court to make sure no Defence or letter of reputed settlement has been received from the Halifax. I wrote to the Halifax to confirm this situation and the relevant part of that letter reads as follows:

 

************

"Thank you for your letter dated 25th July 2006 which I hope is in the spirit of aiming to achieve a settlement satisfactory to both sides.

 

However, whilst I note your comments regarding payment into an account, as it stands at the moment that would not be a financial settlement as the bank have barred access to all my accounts and I am unable to see any of the transactions on any of the accounts. Also, there are three further legs to my Claim so it would not be appropriate to write to the Court to say that the matter has been settled.

 

Were the situation to be restored to the situation that existed before I wrote to the bank informing you of the legal action, then the matter could be settled as you suggest without further recourse to the Court and involving no admission of liability on the part of the bank.

 

Restoring the status quo requires only that the bank regard the accounts as if the refunded charges had never been applied. In practical terms this would involve the following:-

1) Restoration of normal online access to all accounts

2) Restoration of Roll number D/1234567-8 to normal current account status

3) Restoration of the £?00 overdraft facility as previously existing

4) Issuing of Visa Debit Card/cheque guarantee card as recently expired.

5) Issuing of a new cheque book on the aforementioned account

6) Issuing of a new Websaver card captured by a machine when the

account was in credit whilst I was making a balance enquiry, and without

any prior notice

 

Should this not be acceptable to the bank then the Court Action must proceed as none of the legs of that action will have been resolved.

 

To facilitate more rapid communication given the tight deadlines which apply to the action, may I suggest that the bank write to me at the e-mail address held on your records."

***********

 

This letter was faxed and mailed on 26th July. No reply has been received.

[MARTIN3030]

Looks good, thanks for posting this.

 

Given that you sent it to them on 26th,then they have only had a couple of working days to digest it.

What you say though is absolutely spot on.

It would surely be counter productive to them to go down the other road.

The can of worms ......would more likely be a sea of eels !!!

 

[jonni2bad]

Cheers for posting - I'm here at last! (although officially I'm not - don't tell the wife )

 

Anyway, the particulars seem fine and will certainly force them into court should they not settle in full. They really do seem to have very little respect for the court - your letter, like mine, letting the court know it had settled in full is just another example.

 

4 (iv) in particular will be the one where the court will have to examine the issue of costs and, as you say, it seems quite unlikely that they would like to visit this argument in any detail. I think we both need to be very much prepared for them to try though.

 

As I stated in my own thread, keep away from telephone calls if at all possible, especially if you can't record them. If they are aware that you will proceed with the action, then you need do no more. I presume you have made the court aware that the case is not settled? If not, a short letter FAO the District Judge will suffice.

 

Sit tight until the deadline for defence and then be at court as soon as they open, applying for a judgment for the remainder of the claim. Have another letter prepared FAO the D'.J'. to outline the parts of the claim not settled, mentioning that the Defendant was fully aware that your claim had several parts and that they have been made aware of your position.

[henrysdad]

We seem to be of one mind here.

 

I have informed the Court that it's not settled and remind them each day when I call. I have also told them that the bank seem to be adopting a policy of bluffing Claimants into agreeing to withdraw the action. The Court are obviously aware that these actions are invariably settled prior to Hearing - or even Listing, and I get the impression that the Halifax are not winning any brownie points with their tactics.

 

If I am right, and this is felt throughout the Court, then it may also be helpful at any Hearing as the DJ's are often somewhat cavalier in making Judgements based on their own feelings of the case, rather than a strict interpretation of the law.

 

I agree about the telephone aviodance. On my wife's Claim, when they wrote that they were very anxious to speak to her about her concerns, they also included the standard clause about recording the conversation. I used that statement to say that as we would not have that recording for our own records it was not an appropriate course of action. I said that for this reason, some form of written record was advisable for both parties. I also suggested they could e-mail to the address held on their records to save time.

 

I have discussed the procedure for entering Judgement in Default with the Court, as we are going away to North Wales for 10/12 days on Wednesday. Halifax have until Thursday to enter a Defence. If the Court receive an Application to enter Judgement at any time before the close of business on the last day - this Thursday in my case, they will return it to me. So I intend to send a timed delivery letter to arrive by 10-00am on the Friday morning. I will take my laptop and data card with me to stay in touch from time to time - hopefully daily. In any case, I am looking forward to the £5k+ treat in my wife's account as the refund may come towards the end of next week.