Change of Parking Times/Charges

[CrispDust]

Hi folks, advise or thoughts please.

Parked car in same place this morning (Sat) in Leeds City Centre where I have done so on alternate weeks for over 6 years. On a Saturday there is no charge. Charges apply on the pay and display Mon- Fri 08.00 - 18.00.

Got back to car to find penalty notice for not displaying ticket!

Checked machine - usual small 5x7" panel with times on was blank.

No notice anywhere else visible. Pretty sure that nothing there 2 weeks early since I had out of curiosity checked how much it was during the week and when charge time finished as I intended to go into town on an evening.

 

Questions:

1. What procedure does council internally and externally, have to follow to change the charging times on a pay and display?

2. How much public notice must be given and how does this have to be displayed/published etc?

Thanks in anticipation of replies.

[ja-de]

Hi CrispDust, you could phone Leeds City Council on Monday, or write to them explaining the situation, & hope it doesn't fall on deaf ears. A couple of years ago I had a parking ticket slapped on my windscreen while I was parked outside Leeds Parish Church, I sent a very long letter explaining my side, & as luck would have it I was sent a letter telling me they would not be taking any further action.

check this link Leeds City Council - City Centre Parking Charges it looks as though they changed their charges last Monday (8 October), it seems as though they have started to charge on Saturdays, also it looks as though they charge beyond 5.30pm & up to 10.00pm in some areas.

You could actually try to impress on them that the info panel was totally empty. Best of luck with this & please keep us updated.

[green_and_mean]

The missing sign on the machine unless is of no importance in this case what is required is a sign on the bay that states hours of charging. If it is missing or states mon -fri the PCN in invalid. Changes to times etc are usually put in the local paper along with notices a week or so before on the bay but I think legally just putting it in the paper and on a lamp post in the area covers them as seems usual practice.

[patdavies]

Of course, if they have changed the parking restriction to include weekends, not only does the signage need to be changed, but prior to this - the TROs

[CrispDust]

Pat are you sure TROs would be needed? 1991 Traffic act or 1984?

Previous there were no charges for parking Saturday, Sunday or Bank Holiday. Now there is a charge for Saturday. Still free Sunday and BHol.

Presumably I can ask for a copy of the TRO from council, when it was submitted, approved etc. They should have to also furnish a copy of the public notice and if any were printed in local papers? I can find none in the local Yorkshire POst, which I thought would be the benchmark.

Green & mean -there are no markings/sign on the bay, which is just a painted dashed white box on road side, of which there are 4 together. The only sign is a "Please pay at meter", on the other side of the road... but that has always been there. Indeed the meter is actually a good 50 yds from said 4 parking areas and nowhere near any others!

there is alos a confusion of single yellow no waiting lines running through the white boxs. Could this be another case of invalid PCN due to signage deficiency/incorrectness?

[green_and_mean]

Green & mean -there are no markings/sign on the bay, which is just a painted dashed white box on road side, of which there are 4 together. The only sign is a "Please pay at meter", on the other side of the road... but that has always been there. Indeed the meter is actually a good 50 yds from said 4 parking areas and nowhere near any others!

there is alos a confusion of single yellow no waiting lines running through the white boxs. Could this be another case of invalid PCN due to signage deficiency/incorrectness?

 

Yellow lines do not invalidate the boxes as may show parking is not allowed outside the hours of charging subject to the time plate. If its in a CPZ they may get away just putting pay at meter if not the pay and display sign needs times to be enforceable.

[patdavies]

Pat are you sure TROs would be needed? 1991 Traffic act or 1984?

 

AIUI, any change to the times of a restriction need a TRO

The only sign is a "Please pay at meter", on the other side of the road... but that has always been there. Indeed the meter is actually a good 50 yds from said 4 parking areas and nowhere near any others!

 

Are you absolutely sure that's what it says?

 

If so, your PCN is void as the bay is improperly signed. The only approved sign is "Pay at machine". As illustrated here

[CrispDust]

Pat - I'm not sure about the exact sign wording- will check tomorrow.

M& G - parking is allowed any other time so surely this is contradictory and therefore unenforcable. Will check all signs tomorrow.

 

Is "Date of Notice" the same as "Date of Issue"?

There is a date of contravention also.

[CrispDust]

 

Copy of PCN

Thanks for help so far peeps.

[patdavies]

PCN is unlawful.

 

1) "The owner of the vehicle..." is completely wrong - the owner does not become liable until the NtO stage. It usually (properly) worded " The Penalty charge of £60 must be paid..."

 

2) There are no instructions on how to pay - required by the Act

 

3) There is no statement that an NtO will be issued if the PCN remains unpaid - required by the Act

 

4) Leeds cannot issue tickets under the RTA 1991 - the Act only applies to London. It should say Road Traffic Act 1991 (as amended). It will be one of the amendments that authorises Leeds to use DPE

[CrispDust]

Pat - you confirm what i thought with 2 caveats:

" 2) There are no instructions on how to pay - required by the Act"

" 3) There is no statement that an NtO will be issued if the PCN remains unpaid - required by the Act"

These are shown on reverse but I gather from other sources that this does not form part of the notice, especially as the front does not give directions to go overleaf?

In addition, there is a yellow no waiting line running through the parking bay white lined boxes. It looks as though this has been part removed. Presumably this may be covered under the incorrect signage regs?

Als a white line is missing from the parking boxes.

Finally the Notice ties to a lamp post 40 feet from parking bays shows some form of TRO - however it displays both the old and new charging times/costs. The old costs/time are wrong it states that previousley on a Saturday 15p per 20 minutes for a maximum of 5 hours. This is incorrect, there was no charge for Saturdays. I am sure I would have received a PCN sometime in 6 years if this statement were true. So technically the TRO that has been amended was incorrect to begin with. Surely this makes it null and void?

[patdavies]

Get pictures of that muddled signage now!

 

Before they can remove the old ones.

 

They cannot win this; but if you screw up, you can still lose it.

[CrispDust]

don't woory pat, I have photos of everything - roads, lines or missing, position of machine, lamppost copy of the TRO or whatever the notice was posted.

Online appeal gone in.

[CrispDust]

No reply from council yet, other than acknowledgment, after online appeal on 19th October.

[gill5blue]

INTERESTING

but how can you place a post at 23.09 when the time is actually 21.49?

[CrispDust]

Letter from council today saying the PCN has been cancelled "given the circumstances". I gave them a "way out" with requesting insufficient notices and contravention occurred only 5 days after change from previous 6-7 year old times/charges. They deny the PCN/signage etc is invalid - they would wouldn't they.

Almost wish it had gone to NTO/appeal to rub their noses in it!

Interesting to see if any future PCNs have a different format and the white lines get painted correctly.

 

I'm still going to request a copy of the TRO as a matter of course.

[patdavies]

Congratulations - a win!

 

I wonder if they will change the sign?

[CrispDust]

interestingly a work colleague, who had the same ticket, parked next to me, same day, has had her informal appeal turned down!

[patdavies]

interestingly a work colleague, who had the same ticket, parked next to me, same day, has had her informal appeal turned down!

 

She should write back (ignore any comments or their letter about not dealing with further correspondence) referring to your PCN and your letter of cancellation. She should also point out that the local press may well be interested in the inconsistency of enforcement.

 

Don't worry, they cannot re-instate your PCN as a response

[green_and_mean]

It also depends on the grounds they appealed on as the cases are not cross referenced. If I appealed against parking on a loading restriction because there was no legal timeplate I would win, if my wife appealed because she had only left the vehicle for 2 mins to use the cash point she would lose as the process person would assume by the PAs descision to issue the plate was correct and using the cash point is no defence.

[CrispDust]

I would consider filling my wallet from the cashpoint as loading....

[green_and_mean]

I would consider filling my wallet from the cashpoint as loading....

 

A £50 charge for the withdrawl from the Council is enough to convince most people that its not loading. It makes bank charges seem cheap in comparison!