Carer incurring excessive fees @ NatWest

[Vampyra]

Hi

I'm new to the forum and just to explain, I am a full time carer for my mum who have had a stroke, has dementia and cannot run her own finances.

 

I personally have a number of debts incurred when I was a student which, due to my caring responsibilities, have been unable to sort out.

 

I have banked with NatWest since 2001. I worked for 6months after graduation in 2001 before becoming a full time carer.

 

For those who are unaware, benefit claiments now have to have their benefit paid directly into a bank account. Both my carers allowence and my mothers benefits due to her condition are paid in there.

 

A year and a half a go, I had a £600 overdraft from when I was working, on my account. Suddenly, apparently after new software was installed, the bank computer kept "losing" my overdraft facility every 3 weeks. Hence suddenly I was getting the excessive charges mentioned by others on this forum. After 6 months of battling they increased my overdraft to £700 and the total refunded charges came to over £1400.

 

I was intending to take them to the Ombudsman, but unfortunately as I was getting my statements together, my mother had another and more serious stroke.

 

I did have a letter from the Customer Lending Centre about a year ago stating due to "goodwill" they would offer me £100, which I was advised by the Ombudsman to decline. Anyhow, this past year was taken up with my mother and getting her out of hospital and home again.

 

At Christmas, I had several bills due to come out directly after the holiday period which clashed with dates for payments in to my account from the benefits agency. Anyhow, it transpires I have a £60 charge first week of January, which has snowballed to being £143 of charges this last week. One charge of £38 was for a DD of £3.86p - I cannot see how this can be legal. I had also asked them at Christmas if I could have a temporary lift in the overdraft of £50 or £100 which would have stopped the initial £60 charge being incurred. Because I don't work, "computer said no!" - literally! Even though my account was in good order at the time of the application the computer turned me down to the utter surprise of the girl doing it - she couldn't understand why and put it down to my not working.

 

So, this last week chronology of activity on my account.

 

24th Jan 06 payment in of £100 - balance = -£560

" " " cheque out £10.00

" " " cheque out £34.38

" " " cheque out £16.21

" " " cheque out £20.70

" " " cheque out £38.75

 

The total of these cheques is: £120.04

 

Total funds is -£520 + £120.04 = -£640 well within my limit of -£700 overdraft.

 

HOWEVER, at the beginning of the day they charged me £70.00 for the cheques of £38.75 and £34.38 because I didn't get to the bank until later that day with the £100. Even though the £100 deposit is an earlier entry on the statement than the cheques leaving the account.

 

This left my balance at -£750.46 at close of day.

 

25th Jan 06 The next day £3.86 came out as a DD and because of their £70 charge they then charge me a further £38.00 for being over my limit at the start of that day. Bearing in mind if the £70 had not been applied I would not have been over my limit!

 

Close of day balance without £70 charge = -£644.32

With £70 charge = -£788.46

 

26th Jan 06 Payment in of Income Support, (hey I'm not proud), £54.96

Closing balance without £70 = -£589.36

Closing balance with £70 = -£733.50

 

27th Jan 06 Cheque for £29.13 comes out plus a charge of £35.00

Closing balance without £70 = -£618.49 which would be within limit and not require the £35 charge.

Closing balance with £70 = -£797.63

 

Thus far I incurred an incorrect £70 charge and two further charges totalling £143

 

30th January 06 Payment in of £52.29, £45.70 and £110 all benefit direct payments.

Payments out of:

cheque £5.00

cheque £17.96

2 x DD £3. 46 each

 

Total in: £207.99

Total out: £29.88

 

Balance at start of day = -£797.63

Balance at end of day = -£619.52

 

Balance if original £70 and subsequent incorrect charges were not applied = -£439.89 giving £260 in my account to cover cheques totalling £210.

 

no of items to be charged on that day = 3

 

Suspected charge = £105

 

This just gets worse as you can see a total snowball which I can't get out of.

 

Sorry it's long but I need to explain. I will phone them tomorrow - as we have carers here it can be difficult phoning immediately a problem occurs - saying that I only realised what had gone wrong yesterday.

[gothicf0rm]

you cannot see why this is legal? well it isnt legal... they are screwing you. first question is how long are they leaving it from you being overdrawn to them charging you? are they taking out the money the same day?

[Vampyra]

They are charging me the day I'm over my limit even if I pay in funds that day to bring me back within my limit.

 

Yep I know they are screwing me.

 

But as I don't work I cant get another current account which I need.

 

 

Been reading round the forum though and gonna try the asking for a supervisor and NOT letting them pretend they'll ring me back. Had that happen too many times.

 

I dread to think how many more charges have been added in the last 24hrs.

[Vampyra]

Sorry to make that clear, they are applying the charges and removing the money from my account all on the same day as I tip over my limit - as I say even when by close of business I have brought the account into order - thus because they have already applied the charges the account becomes and remains over my limit.

 

What makes me more angry is they know damn well the two days per week money is going into the account via BACS payments and this last two weeks I suspect - as I have yet to have a monthly statement, that I have lost nearly £250. I consider it robbery from a disabled person and carer.

[gothicf0rm]

they are charging you that day? the banking code clearly states they MUST wait 14 days and as a result they are breaking it every time they charge you. unless you have a completely paperless account they are supposed to notify you in advance of every charge you recieve.

you dont even need to worry about whether these charges are penalties (they are) because they are levying them in a way that breaks the rules they have signed up to.

get a copy of the banking code which you can find online and read it out tomorrow when you telephone someone. it will be obvious that they are breaking it simply from looking at the dates in your account.

demand the full refund of charges and interest on those charges. do not back down. do not let them "phone you back" if they really do have no one available then ask them when they can call you, tell them whatever they say its inconvenient and give them a time they will call you.

tell them that as they are in breach of the banking codeyou will make a full complaint to the banking ombudsman immediately if they do not refund the fees.

you can find the banking code here and of relevance to you is 5.5

http://www.bankingcode.org.uk/pdfdocs/BANKING%20CODE.pdf

if they dont back down and refund your money pronto come back and we'll tell you how to sue them

[Vampyra]

Oh thank you for that info. I feel vindicated now I know they can't do this.

 

If that first £70 hadn't occured then I wouldn't even be over my limit.

 

I am very glad I found this site and I hope I can learn more about banking and help you all in your campaign.

[Vampyra]

Can I just ask please; so what is written here is wrong?

 

http://www.natwest.com/personal02.asp?id=PERSONAL/DAY_TO_DAY/CURRENT_ACCOUNTS/RATES_CHARGES#unarranged

 

Are they not allowed to charge like this?

 

Sorry cutting my nose off here

[gothicf0rm]

they arent allowed to charge like this but thats besides the point. they are breaking their own rules by charging without waiting 14 days, they signed up to the banking code you see. by simply charging you they are breaking their own rules, thats the quickest plan of attack.

charges ARE unlawful at the current levels they have set them out at but thats not the point here, they are charging you before you even get notice on it so you can hardly keep the account in order. natwest will dispute initially whether their charges are unlawful but they wont dare dispute that they are breaking the banking code as they have been doing with your account.

[Vampyra]

Gotcha!

 

I also think 14.1 is quite a serious breach in my case - well probably others too - but as they have been aware for some tim,e I am a carer and they don't deal with anything sympathetically.

 

Will let you know what happens later. Thanks for your help.

[Vampyra]

On phone to bank now - current snowballed fees are up to £247 they bounded my BT bill and I have £118 in benefits due to go in by the end of the week. All last payments chewed up in fees and current balance -£707 and counting!!!!

 

I have asked for a supervisor I have been on hold for 10 minutes as we speak.

 

I was told this is all correct and a supervisor was busy can they phone you back I said no, they resisted, I stated 5.5 of the banking code and he shuffled off very quickly.

 

I suspect I'm waiting on an empty line and no-one will return.

[Vampyra]

No-one answered.

 

Started a complaint at Head Office.

 

Through to lending and they have me on hold again. They say my £100 paid in on 24th Jan which would have negated a £70 charge should have been paid in a day earlier as it hadn't cleared. Cash clears immediately doesnt it? Yes it does!

 

Charges have also gone up again - by close of business today it will stand at £343 of charges in around 8-9 days.

 

My balance will be nearly -£900.

 

Even when you state these areas of the banking code at them they swear they are doing it correctly.

 

Just had a supervisor on the line and he told me it's my fault and would refund £35 as a gesture of goodwill and realised the charges are snowballing but it's my fault and they don't accept the banking code because they publish their charges and even when I said they were breaking the law they said they weren't - blah, blah you've heard it all before no doubt. I was sitting on hold for 30 minutes too. Made 5 phone calls today. They say the £35 refund is because of section 14.1 and their literature superceeds the banking code.

 

I have no money all our benefits are being taken by the bank and I don't know what to do. Any action taken will take long enough that the bank will get into an even worse state than it is now.

 

Help please.

 

Sorry the bloke also said he would not put this is writing to me.

[Vampyra]

OK I have informed the bank I have cancelled ALL benefit payments into the account until they refund ALL the excessive charges from 24th Jan 06 til whenever they sort it out in the next 2 weeks.

 

I told them this money is not for the banks to chew up in charges but for a disabled person and her carer to live on. The Head Office complaints department verbally agreed that it was a sensible thing to do.

 

We cant live on nothing - but we cant pay our bills either! All bills are on DD

[gothicf0rm]

open an account elsewhere. youll be able to get this account back fully once you have this settled. from what youre saying youve been treated awfully by them, for example them going to get a supervisor and then ignoring you. you told them you wanted to complain and they hung up on you... so they broke 15.1 too.

in your case because of what they are doing it might be best to go straight to the banking ombudsman. the ombudsman dosent rule on the legality of fees but rather on whether the banking code has been broken. this might be the best form of attack as not only will you get yourm oney back plus compensation (though the compensation offers are derisory) but they'll also probably be fined. once the ombudsman backs you up you can then sue them for consequential damages entering the ombudsmans findings as evidence. they have to pay £700 just to be investigated by the ombudsman so naturally they dont like it.

as youve seen on another post, natwest DO accept the banking code.

"24 NatWest subscribes to the Banking Code and Business Banking Code. If you would like a Banking Code or Business Banking Code leaflet ask a member of staff at any branch. Full details of the Code are also available from the British Bankers' Association website."

this is why you need to be familiar with the situation before you talk to them, they will tell you all sorts of crap that isnt true just to make you go away. if they say they are allowed to opt out just tell them youve got the code infront of them and youd like them to explain where it says they dont have to notify you? if youre immediately able to quote something back at them that completely contradicts them youre the one with power.

[Vampyra]

Luckily I did - I was a broken record.

 

It's nice to hear I am being treated badly because you do get thoughts as to maybe you missed something along the way.

 

I can't open another current account as far as I'm aware because I have students debts outstanding and no doubt when the banks check the account you already have, they shy away. I don't want to have to lose my cheque book and debit card but looks like the basic bank account is the way to go.

 

I'll try ringing the ombudsman - thanx

[gothicf0rm]

open a basic bank account elsewhere and have your benefits paid in there for now. at least youll have SOME money. im not a lawyer but im sure youll get your natwest account back. when you talk to the ombudsman ask them if natwest have opted out of the banking code because thats what youve been told by their staff! this will certainly get the interest of the ombudsman as natwest HAVE signed up to the code and are supposed to abide by it, when they are caught out it seems they are lying to customers by telling them they havent signed up.

[Vampyra]

Just phoned the ombudsman. The girl was pretty blase and just took my details and ended the conversation with the standard thing about 8 weeks after the complaint has been made send the forms off and even when I said they were contravening section 5.5 she wasn't interested in talking. Still I have the forms coming which is a step forward.

 

Sometimes if you have a basic account and you use it wisely they can upgrade your account after a period of time can't they?

 

I feel empowered today - I was not scared of pulling my income away from my bank.

[gothicf0rm]

yes, normally you can upgrade it if youve been good with it. you might be able to find you can get a current account anyway fully featured. im sure people on MoneySavingExpert.com ad-free, free to use, Consumer Revenge! can recommend you a good account where you will have a card (though it might only be a maestro one) and a direct debit facility.

given their 8 weeks you need to make the choice whether youd like to persue the complaint through the ombudsman and go through all the they are very slow - or go straight into court. from 'letter before action' to judgement would probably be less than 8 weeks.

sadly the ombudsman wont investigate your complaint whilst you sue the bank. if i were you id do the following -

 

1) get an account elsewhere and get all your benefits paid into it

2) let the natwest one stay dormant. youll acrue more charges in the process. this might sound bad but its good

3) send them one letter by recorded post with "letter before action" at the top. if they fail to settle then do the rest below. do not try to negotiate with them if they try as you hold all the aces and will win if they fail to settle with you.

4) if natwest try to chase the debt dispute it exists. if they pass it on to a debt collection agency dispute it. threaten the agency with a report to trading standards if they continue to contact you after you have explained why the debt is in dispute

5) issue a small claims action for the amount outstanding, remember to include the interest they have charged your overdraft as a direct result of their penalty fees. as youre on benefits you wont even have to pay court fees, you also qualify for legal aid if you want to get a solicitor

6) put on the particulars of claim that not only are natwest breaking contract law by charging you at a punitive level but they are breaking their own published terms and conditions by not following the banking code when they say they do on paper but dont on the phone and in action.

7) add 8% apr to the money they owe you. remember the more they charge you, the more you can claim back because youre earning interest on their charges and related interest.

8) when they contact you for a settlement demand they repair your credit rating and reinstate your old account (if you still want to bank with them) and see if you can get a goodwill payment out of them, think of it as an edited tax. your circumstances should impress on them the importance of this and the fact that you will continue action if they dont meet all your terms.

9) if they demand confidentiality sell it to them mentioning in passing, but not directly, that the local newspaper is interested in the story. its not true but they wont know that. alternatively if youre feeling nasty you can phone your local paper after theyve settled and youve refused confidentiality and see if they are interested in your story, then make a complaint with the banking ombudsman relating to the banking code. yours is exactly the sort of human interest consumer story journalists love because youre so obviously the victim.

 

my guess is natwest wont want this to get into a court room and wont even try to file a defence as in defending they even took the fees to start with they defend breaking the banking code. theyll be shocked youve gone to the court rather than the ombudsman and will try and settle with you as promptly as possible. they will lose, you will win and remember for every charge theyve stuck on you youll make 8% apr

[Vampyra]

Thank you very much. I will follow this and see how it goes.

 

I will not just take your advice and run, I hope that I can help other thorough my experiences with this bank.

[gothicf0rm]

sadly thats all you can do, if reasoning doesnt work and being reasonable doesnt work then sue. the best you can do with others is if you know anyone in any sort of trouble with their bank tell them their rights. its amazing really isnt it just what rights we have that we dont even realise we posess and damningly for the legal system when you think of it, the amount of people in debt who have been hauled into the courts and in reality dont owe a penny. just tell people you know about their rights and itll spread. ill eat my shoes if by the end of the year this doesnt become a major political hot potato.

[BankFodder]

I'd like to think that you are right - but frankly I'll eat your shoes if it does!

[BankFodder]

Well I I always was fond of Spud-U-Like And I'd much rather eat hot potato than gothicf0rm's shoes.

 

As far as Tony Blair goes, as he is the Prime Minister everyone in the country is entitled to write to him diretcly. Normal constituency rules do not apply.

[Vampyra]

I'd go with that.

[diddled]

Having read through this thread a few things spring to mind.

Whilst I am no expert, I have researched the implications of mental incapacity within banking law.

Are both your own and your mothers benefits paid into a joint account?

Is the bank aware that your mum is mentally incapable?

[Vampyra]

They have been told but they have never commented on it.

[BankFodder]

Told -= verbally or in writing?