Alf -v- A&L - MBNA - DEBT CLEAR - CABOT/RED - NOW CLARITY ON THE CASE

[ScarletPimpernel]

Unenforceable, and because they haven't sent the T&Cs applicable at the time, they have not properly fulfilled your CCA request.

[The GodMother]

l agree with that.

[tiglet]

Me too - shot themselves in the foot with taht one - a judge would want to see an original document.

[alfwithhair]

Thanks for all your comments folk. I will wait and see what Debt Clears next move is now, then start hitting them with a few choice worded letters.

ALF

[The GodMother]

oh like the sound of the choice words.

[spiritgirl59]

Unenforceable, and because they haven't sent the T&Cs applicable at the time, they have not properly fulfilled your CCA request.

 

Hiya Alf

 

Got the same issue myself with Creation Finance. They spoke to me on the phone yesterday and said whilst they couldn't find any agreement relating to an alleged debt I have, they could send me a copy of some recent t&cs I can have a read of , and would that suffice!!!

 

I told them no, it would not suffice, I want a copy of any agreement I am alleged to have signed and t&Cs applicable at that time which would have formed part of the agreement. Her words were "But I don't think we have one" .... well neither do I which is why I am leaving the ball firmly in THEIR court

 

Good luck! Am watching developments on your thread with interest.

 

Love SG x

[alfwithhair]

Well another letter from Debt Clear this morning headed

 

OUTSTANDING BALANCE

DUE FOR IMMEDIATE PAYMENT.

 

Dear Mrs X

 

Your total debt of £XXXX has been refered to Debt Clear Recoveries & Investigations Ltd.

 

Our records show that dispite previous communications, an outstanding balance of £XXXX remains due in relation to the above account.

 

We wish to assist but require your co-operation to do so. Failure to co-operate may leave us with little choice but to;

 

Instruct field agents to visit your property to discuss repayment

or

Instruct solicitors to apply for a Judgement against you. For your information, any unpaid Judgement could result in us applying for an Enforcement Order through the County Court to recover the debt direct from you employes; through equity in any property you own; or through seizure and sale of assets held at your residence.

 

Please call today on 0161 819 2288 to discuss an affordable repayment plan.

 

Your sincerely

Mr G Matthews

Investigating Officer.

 

So it is time for one of your letters Ben I think. As you good people have already said, what MBNA have sent as a valid CCA is not enforceable.

 

So has anyone got any further comments regarding the appropriate action to pursue now with these plonkers?

 

Thanks for your help folks

ALF

[pt2537]

no problems Alf, thats moved for you

[alfwithhair]

no problems Alf, thats moved for you

Thanks Paul.

Any comment on the next move with this lot?

[Curlyben]

How about this:

 

CCA Non-compliance and s10

Account In Dispute

 

Ref:

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Thank you for your letter of xx/xx/xx, the contents of which have been noted.

 

You have failed to respond to my legal request to supply me a true copy of the original Consumer Credit Agreement for the above account.

 

On **DATE** I made a formal request for a true signed agreement for the alleged account under consumer credit Act 1974 s77/8. A copy of which is enclosed for your perusal and ease of reference.

You have failed to comply with my request, and as such the account entered default on **DATE**.

 

The document that you are obliged to send me is a true copy of the executed agreement that contained all of the prescribed terms, all other required terms and statutory notices and was signed by both your company and myself as defined in section 61(1) of CCA 74 and subsequent Statutory Instruments. If the executed agreement contained any reference to any other document, you are also obliged to send me a copy of that document.In addition a full statement of this account should have been sent to me detailing all debits and credits to the account.

 

Furthermore

 

 

You are aware that the Consumer Credit Act allows 12 working days for a request for a true copy of a credit agreement to be carried out before your client enters into a default situation.

 

If that request is not satisfied after a further 30 calendar days your client commits a summary criminal offence.

 

These limits have expired.

 

As you are no doubt aware section 77(6) states:

 

If the creditor fails to comply with Subsection (1)

 

(a) He is not entitled , while the default continues, to enforce the agreement.

 

And

 

(b) If the default continues for one month he commits an offence.

 

Therefore this account has become unenforceable at law.

 

As you have Failed to comply with a lawful request for a true, signed copy of the said agreement and other relevant documents mentioned in it, Failed to send a full statement of the account and Failed to provide any of the documentation requested.

 

Consequentially any legal action you pursue will be averred as both UNLAWFUL and VEXATIOUS.

 

Furthermore I shall counterclaim that any such action constitutes unlawful harassment.

 

Please note you may also consider this letter as a statutory notice under section 10 of the Data Protection Act to cease processing any data in relation to this account with immediate effect.

 

This means you must remove all information regarding this account from your own internal records and from my records with any credit reference agencies.

 

Should you refuse to comply, you must within 21 days provide me with a detailed breakdown of your reasoning behind continuing to process my data.

 

It is not sufficient to simply state that you have a ‘legal right’; You must outline your reasoning in this matter and state upon which legislation this reasoning depends.

 

Should you not respond within 14 days I expect that this means you agree to remove all such data.

 

Furthermore you should be aware that a creditor is not permitted to take ANY

Action against an account whilst it remains in dispute.

 

The lack of a credit agreement is a very clear dispute and as such the following applies.

 

* You may not demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.

* You may not add further interest or any charges to the account.

* You may not pass the account to a third party.

* You may not register any information in respect of the account with any credit reference agency.

* You may not issue a default notice related to the account.

 

 

I reserve the right to report your actions to any such regulatory authorities as I see fit.

You have 14 days from receiving this letter to contact me with your intentions to resolve this matter which is now a formal complaint.

 

I would appreciate your due diligence in this matter.

 

I look forward to hearing from you in writing.

 

Yours faithfully

BLAH

[alfwithhair]

Cheers Ben, will be on it way to them later today.

[pt2537]

thread moved to the debt forums

[alfwithhair]

Hello all.

Sent CB's letter (post#85) to Debt Clear Recoveries on 13th February 08.

Got a reply this morning in MBNA envelope but Alliance Leicester headed Paper.

 

Dear Mrs X

Account number XXXXXXX

 

Thank you for your recent letter dated 13th February 2008, which has been forwarded to me from Debt Clear Rrecoveries & Investigations for a response.

 

In your letter, you advise that you are confused as to why there are two different account numbers relating to the account. As you are aware the debt has been passed to Debt Clear Recoveries & Investigations to collect on our behalf. The account was assigned a new account number however both numbers can still be used to acess your detail, but only on completion of security checks.

 

We are confident that we have provided you with all the necessary information which is required by law, and can confim that the copy of the application form which we sent you, was in fact a copy of your credit agreement, as evidenced by its' form and content.

 

we can also confirm that the information recorded at credit reference agencies, is a true and accurate reflection of the way in which you have maintained your account, therefore this information will not be removed.

 

We have considered the other points which you have raised in your letter and can confirm that you entered into a valid and enforecable agreement.

 

Should this information not be sufficient, and you wish to make a full data subject access request under section 7 of the Data Proection Act 1998, please complete and return the enclosed form. Please ensure you include the fee of £10 and appropriate ID (e.g. photocopy of drivers licence or passport.

 

Your sincerely

Rachael Hopley

Customer Assistance Manager.

Now then they are saying that an application form is a valid agreement and enforcable? So what it the next step with these idiots please.

Alf

[ScarletPimpernel]

 

We are confident that we have provided you with all the necessary information which is required by law, and can confim that the copy of the application form which we sent you, was in fact a copy of your credit agreement, as evidenced by its' form and content.

 

This is MBNA's standard drivel. Whilst they may have sent what is required by law (and this is doubtful, since MBNA rarely send the correct T&Cs), that doesn't mean that they have an enforceable agreement. A creditor is allowed to send, in reply to a CCA request, an agreement that omits signatures and the debtor's name and address. To enforce the debt, however, they need the original agreement with all the details and signatures. If they had one, they'd have produced it and wouldn't be going to all this trouble to convince you that what they've sent has any more standing than a sheet of lavatory paper.

 

Then there are the prescribed terms, as required by s.61 of the CCA 1974, which are missing from many of MBNA's forms. The 'form and content' statement is nonsense. MBNA suggest that an application form is an executed agreement because it shares some of the same characteristics. So, a Brazilian electrician is a terrorist after all, then. If the paperwork doesn't comply with the CCA, it's not an enforceable agreement just because MBNA say it is.

 

we can also confirm that the information recorded at credit reference agencies, is a true and accurate reflection of the way in which you have maintained your account,

 

So, the amount of the default doesn't include any penalty charges, then?

 

therefore this information will not be removed.

 

Another standard tactic.

 

We have considered the other points which you have raised in your letter and can confirm that you entered into a valid and enforecable agreement.

 

This is meaningless; I have considered the points raised by MBNA and can confirm that they are cretins who have severe difficulty locating their anal orifice in a brightly illuminated room, with both hands. On top of that, they lie like a Cabinet Minister discussing extraordinary rendition.

 

It's just their opinion, anyway - remember that these are the same clowns that think a card mailer constitutes an executed agreement, too.

 

Should this information not be sufficient, and you wish to make a full data subject access request under section 7 of the Data Proection Act 1998, please complete and return the enclosed form. Please ensure you include the fee of £10 and appropriate ID (e.g. photocopy of drivers licence or passport.

 

When you do this, they will respond by saying that they have not treated your S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) "as a formal request on this occasion", send you a few copy statements, and ignore everything else until forced to comply by a court or Information Commissioners Office.

 

 

 

What next? Sit and wait for them to sell the account to one of the DBSG's bottom-feeding pond life. If you pursue them further, MBNA will reply with: 'we will not enter into further correspondence'.

[ScarletPimpernel]

 

I dont think a lot of other people using this blog see it in the same way.

 

A lot of posts do-not recommend using a CCA request as leyway to get interest and fees refunded so they can resolve paying back just what they actually spent. The posts (and replys) give a strong impression that nothing should be paid back, and give an impression that their method is the way in which to supposedly go about avoiding paying anything. I am not saying this is the intention of the authors, but this is definately is how this forum reads.

 

You appear to be applying your own perception to everyone here. I do not perceive these forums as either condoning debt avoidance, or providing methods to that end.

 

Nor do I agree with your perception that the forum reads this way - the impression I have is of people being helped to assert their legal rights.

 

Stereotyping those in debt as 'won't pays' is a favourite tactic of DCAs - it helps them justify their questionable methods - and is as unhelpful as it is inaccurate.

 

In any case, this discussion of the rights and wrongs of CAG is puling the thread away from Alf's dealings with MBNA. Sassan - why not start a new thread on this if you feel strongly about it?

[alfwithhair]

Thanks for the info SP.

 

MBNA have at least confirmed Debt Clear are acting on their behalf to collect the debt, not as Debt Clear make out, that they OWN IT.

 

If they are under some illusion that an application form and a copy of MBNA's current terms & conditions are enforcable when the card was taken out with Alliance Leicester, then bring it on boys.

 

I am fed up to the back teeth of all these DCA's thinking they are above the law and threatening all sorts when they cannot substanciate their right to collect.

[The GodMother]

go alf, go alf.

 

well DCAs do think they are above the law. The problem is they think and we all know they need a licence to think. .

 

Any way how can a copy of T&Cs relating to MBNA be the ones you were provided when u signed the application form when it was an alicance and leidter card? Wonder what there reply to that would be??

[robcag]

sassan,

 

You have formed your opinions and you are entitled to do so, but I think you need to do a lot more reading on this site to see where people are coming from.

 

I think you will find there are organisations out there offering to do what you are suggesting on a commercial basis using the same methods that you are suggesting that people on here are advocating.

 

CCCS and CAB have their uses but they are not necessarily suitable to all situations, which is why people need to assert themselves and make use of their legal rights and protections, and which has already been explained to you.

 

Why don't you do as advised further up this thread and go away and start your own thread on the topics you are trying to put across by hijacking Alfs thread?

 

I don't wish to make accusations of trolling, but perhaps if/when you start your own thread you could also tell us about "the blog" you keep referring to, and possibly disassociate yourself from any involvement with DCAs/Creditors, as IMHO that is the way you seem to me to be coming across.

 

Rob

[robcag]

Sorry about my post above Paul, you beat me to it, and anyway you're way quicker at typing than me!

 

Rob

[pt2537]

No worries Rob,

 

what you said is a very fair post;)

 

regards

 

paul

[cashin]

Alf,

 

MBNA sold my account to Link, while still being in default of a CCA request, and whats even better MBNA have to date not even issued a Default Notice.

MBNA did send copies of application form and current Terms. Awaiting next move from them....

 

Cashin

[The GodMother]

its that arse from elbow thing again

[cashin]

Totally agree GM.

 

Cashin.

[The GodMother]

morning alf

[The GodMother]

I have noticed a lot of company have developed what l have called MBNA disorder/ MBNAities.

 

Just means the lack of doing there job properly when needing to find a CCA request.

 

Please be aware it is very contagious and may effect DCAs and OCs.

 

if found in a DCA or OC please be aware they may have noting to go on as they may try and pass a application form of as a CCA.

 

There is not cure.