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    • i would suggest that you stick to researching on here only. use our search top right for say CTAX or liability order.   you seriously have some wild theories, but those are understandable.   as i have said, there won't be a court hearing you need nor would that help you at all nor are expected to attend, it's not like that, it's merely a rubberstamp exercise .   there is no right of forced entry for bailiffs collecting CTAX debts. the bailiff process is one of a letter which will be entitled Notice of enforcement, this gives you 7 days to pay the sum it outlines with an associated fee of £75 for it being sent. the 2nd step will be a visit, you have no legal remit to engage with them at all, i i would not do so under any circumstances, that visit will add a further £235 fee those are the only things a bailiff can do. the most they can charge is a total of £310.   police do not ever get involved in civil matters like CTAX debt. not sure where you ever got that idea from.   its saturday now so use the W/end wisely, get reading up HERE ONLY it might well pay you on monday to go RING the council CTAX dept and plead poverty etc etc. it might also pay you to find the email address or even better phone number of your local MP and get him involved. they can do wonders.   dx 
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    • Hi Stu and dx1000uk,   I have done the online assessment and as I suspected I already receive the maximum benefits available to me.   Yes I was referring to the fact that some times I know that non-payment of council tax can lead to imprisonment so thanks for clarifying.   let's say I can't make their demands for payment and they do send bailiffs in, I assume these are the type of bailiffs I can just not let in and then after a certain amount of attempts they give up right? does the council then not send the police round? This is what I can't work out and worries me.   The council already know that I am struggling and can't make the payments but when do I get my chance to tell a court or the police that it's not that I don't want to pay but that I can't pay?    Walshy
    • Hi Stu and dx1000uk,   I have done the online assessment and as I suspected I already receive the maximum benefits available ot me. Yes I was referring to the fact that some times I know that non-payment of council tax can lead to imprisonment so thanks for clarifying. But let's say I can't make their demands for payment and they do send bailiffs in, I assume these are the type of bailiffs I can just not let in and then after a certain amount of attempts they give up right? But does the council then not send the police round? This is what I can't work out and worries me. The council already know that I am struggling and can't make the payments but when do I get my chance to tell a court or the police that it's not that I don't want to pay but that I can't pay?    Walshy
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    • Hi @BankFodder
      Sorry for only updating you now, but after your guidance with submitting the claim it was pretty straight forward and I didn't want to unnecessarily waste your time. Especially with this guide you wrote here, so many thanks for that
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      In the second call the mediator came back with an offer of the full amount of the phone and postage £146.93, but not the court costs. I said I was not willing to accept this and the mediator came across as a bit irritated that I would not accept this and said I should be flexible. I insisted that the law was on my side and I was willing to take them to court. The mediator went back to Hermes with what I said.
       
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Cancel Phone Contract Using Distance Selling Regulations


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I went for one of those tempting, but stupid evil cashback offers with The Carphone Warehouse and Orange (yeh, theyre just as much to blame- they know all about it). It arrived a week ago without any mention of the cashback offer, surprise surprise!

I phoned them and apparently "they have no record of the offer on their system", for my account. After some hassle, the operater said shed put a note on my account to let others know i was eligible for the offer, but refused to send me proof, such as a revised receipt with it on. She didnt put the note on either, as i phoned the next day. though they did send me a mail to confirm the offer.

 

Now I cant be arsed to trust them to pay up, so i did some research into my right to send it back under the distance selling regulations.

Usually you get 7 days to cancel a contract, but the CPW snuck in an agreement (in the t and c) to start the service early, thus nullifying the 7 day 'cooling period'.

 

However, the regulations also state something about providing certain information in writing such as your right to cancel, the service, the price etc- which they didnt do and still havnt done!! All orange have sent me is a direct debit instruction thing and a bill. hence the contract is not enforcable! so the cooling period is extended up to 3 months! And i have the right to cancel the contract!!!

Or so i think. I wanted to see if anyone could find fault in my arguement, before i write to cancel everything. I dont want big companies like orange and CPW on my back, unless im confident i can stick two fingers up to them! Think ive got a chance?

Also, would an email from them confirming the offer hold up in court if they didnt pay me, saying i didnt have the offer etc, or does it have to be written into a reciept? Id rather not the hassle of cancelling, u see.

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I just found this, anyone understand what it means? Could be crucial, although it is dated 2000. Quite old. Regulation 8 is about having to provide said info in writing.

 

Services performed through the use of a means of distance communication

9. - (1) Regulation 8 shall not apply to a contract for the supply of services which are performed through the use of a means of distance communication, where those services are supplied on only one occasion and are invoiced by the operator of the means of distance communication.

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Now I cant be arsed to trust them to pay up, so i did some research into my right to send it back under the distance selling regulations.

Usually you get 7 days to cancel a contract, but the CPW snuck in an agreement (in the t and c) to start the service early, thus nullifying the 7 day 'cooling period'.

 

You're rather vague in what they have/haven't said, but services that begin, by agreement, before the end of the cancellation period providing the supplier has informed the consumer before the conclusion of the contract, in writing or another durable medium, that he will not be able to cancel once performance of the services has begun with his agreement are exempt from Distance Selling Regulations.

 

 

9. - (1) Regulation 8 shall not apply to a contract for the supply of services which are performed through the use of a means of distance communication, where those services are supplied on only one occasion and are invoiced by the operator of the means of distance communication.

 

This is not relevant to your contract.

Opinions given herein are made informally by myself as a lay-person in good faith based on personal experience. For legal advice you must always consult a registered and insured lawyer.

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Ah cool, thanks for clearing that up.

Yeh, well the things is, in writing, CPW have said very little. Other than sending me a reciept detailing the price, the phone, the contract length, ive received nothing. ANd orange hasnt really sent me anything either. Do i need to worry about Orange, or is my contract soley with CPW do you think?

 

They do inform you that you wont be able to cancel the contract once the service has begun, but only on their website, within a link for terms and conditions- and that isnt a durable medium, right?

 

Am i right in thinking that this means they havnt provided what they should have, in terms of written information, under the DSR?

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hi, i use to work in a mobile phone shop, many years ago,

your contract is with orange,

most mobile phone shops will do any thing to get a contract, (they work on commission as im sure you know)

i foolishly took out a contract phone the other day at phones 4 u.

becouse there was issuses with them telling me to bring in the wrong forms of id, they said a bank statement, so i went home brought it in, but becouse there was no movement in the account, they needed some thing els,

they offered to pay me 50 pounds into my account as a offer of good will, great i thought, i told the bloke serving me i want that in writing, he said all my relevent forms was in the bag with the phone, the money will be in my account in 28 days to spend on what i please.

there was no form confirming this,im going to have to wait and see if the money goes in,if it dont i will most certainly be back in that shop kicking off.

some thing i noticed with my contract phone is the only reference of wanting to cancel my agreement with 3,

it has to be on the conditions the sim card as never gone into the phone, and used.

well they set it all up for you in the shop!

what chance is that !

i wish you all the best mate, michelle x

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@sezchwarn:

 

Did you take out the contract online, or over the phone?

Opinions given herein are made informally by myself as a lay-person in good faith based on personal experience. For legal advice you must always consult a registered and insured lawyer.

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barracad; It was online. So, what do you reckon?

 

michsienna; yeh, they'll lie through their teeth, they have no sense of honour or self- respect. I think youd have to be very unempathic to be in that line of work. Ah well, if they dont pay and you cant do anything, take it as a lesson in life.

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Your contract should tell you who it is with. CW act as a 'service provider' for a few networks, where they hold the contract and bill you accordingly. You only use Orange's network, and you are not a customer of their's. Since orange themselves don't offer cashback deals, your argument appears to be with CW - but the contract you signed will be the final arbiter.

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barracad; It was online. So, what do you reckon?

 

michsienna; yeh, they'll lie through their teeth, they have no sense of honour or self- respect. I think youd have to be very unempathic to be in that line of work. Ah well, if they dont pay and you cant do anything, take it as a lesson in life.

 

tell me about it, when i worked in my shop, i was told to go out looking for customers in the street,and give the blokes the impression if they came back to my shop they would get more then a mobile phone, i also got a warning from my area manager when i refused to go out for a meal with a customer in exchange for him getting out a multi contract deal for his firm, he apparently worked for.

michelle xx

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****ing hell, are you kidding?! Im surprised companies would go that far for profit, what with it being completely illegal. I trust you told him to go **** himself?lol.

 

no i dident do it, i was young and foolish back then, its all about the money at the end of the day, and companies like that would do any thing for a sale,including abuse there staff, and yes i know it was only a mobile phone shop, lol,thats what makes it very funny!

but imagine what other huge companies out there could be up to, if a phone shop could go on like that!

michelle xx

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barracad; It was online. So, what do you reckon?

 

If it was taken out online then it would be reasonable to expect you to read to the terms and conditions on their website before you place the order.

 

As they give details in their T&Cs online, I think you're on to a non-starter and there's no way for you to cancel your contract using DSR.

Opinions given herein are made informally by myself as a lay-person in good faith based on personal experience. For legal advice you must always consult a registered and insured lawyer.

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As long as you are a new contract and not an upgrade DSR does apply, as I have found not once but twice.

 

In my case with Orange online direct, the web account access had a problem, as did the mobile internet access. I cancelled the contract as I was within the time peroid, no problem. Orange did not dispute the cancellation.

 

Second, my wife had a new contract with T-Mobile, again online direct. The handset had old software installed,Windows Mobile 2003. The latest software, WM5, had been available for over a year. As the hanset could not be upgraded to WM5 the contract was cancelled using DSR. Again there was no problem.

 

From experience I know that CPW are not the easiest of companies to deal with, they lie, ignore or deny receipt of letters and put you on hold for ages to try to put you off. Any correspondence send by Royal Mail Special Delivery as they have to sign for each letter individually, as opposed to Recorded Delivery where they just sign by the batch load.

 

I do not see where you guys feel that Sezchwarn has a problem. If you are not sure talk to trading standards might put you on the right track.

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As the hanset could not be upgraded to WM5 the contract was cancelled using DSR. Again there was no problem.

 

You were certainly lucky. Phone firmware is not a reason for cancellation - currently Orange sell the SPV M5000 with WM5. WM6 is currently available on other HTC models, but Orange has not released their flavour of WM, but if you cancel within the cooling off period, there's no problem. After this, no contract break would be permitted, so the old firmware argument is a tad misleading as it was never advertised as being sold with the latest version of WM.

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The annoying part of DSR is that each company sets its own limits but if you are within that period then you really do not need an excuse to return the handset and cancel the contract, so luck is not a factor.

 

In case number two, had the correct software been installed then there would not have been a problem. As it was within the DSR period T-Mobile had to accept the cancellation for whatever reason, even if she did not like the colour of the handset.

 

For once, and it does not happen often, the law in the favour of the online buyer.

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Cool, thanks Cattolica, thats put my mind at rest a little.yeh, i always was going to send by spec del.

 

And after more thinking, and talking, Im a little clearer about things:

 

barracad: I think thats open for debate as to whether its reasonable. I dont think its reasonable to expect people to search for a little link and then scroll though loads of terms and conditions in small print, just in case the company tries to [problem] you.

But anyway, I think what is deemed reasonable is irrelevant here, as the DSR state that they must fulfill certain conditions, with no exceptions- so even if it is reasonable that I check the t and c, as you state, they still have to provide certain info in writing- its the law. As they havnt, the contract is not enforcable. So im pretty sure (now) I can cancel the contract under DSR.

 

So, I have no qualms about sending the phone back (even though its past 7 days now) as they havnt provided the written info. But Ive since decided I wont bother, as I do have an email stating my entitlement to the offer, so i guess thats as good as it being on the receipt in the first place, do you agree? ie theyre not likely to think "oh we can rip him off, he doesnt have anything in writing.."

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So, I have no qualms about sending the phone back (even though its past 7 days now) as they havnt provided the written info. But Ive since decided I wont bother, as I do have an email stating my entitlement to the offer, so i guess thats as good as it being on the receipt in the first place, do you agree? ie theyre not likely to think "oh we can rip him off, he doesnt have anything in writing.."

 

@Sezchwarn,

 

Even though you have received an e-mail from CPW to confirm that you are entiltled to the cashback offer, to cover your backside, write a letter to CPW confirming receipt of the e-mail and set out the exact deal that you have agreeed. ie 12 months @ £25 pm, cash back offer etc etc. Send it RM special delivery and track it on the RM web site and make a note of when it was delivered. This way should you have any problems in the future you have concrete proof that you confirmed the deal as per conversations and e-mails. You really do have to 'box clever' with CPW.

Good luck

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I do not see where you guys feel that Sezchwarn has a problem.

 

See post #3. The agreement seems to be exempt from DSR based on the OP's information he has given.

 

Also what you say about Recorded v Special Delivery is wrong - both can be signed for in bulk. In any event I don't see what difference this would make as whether they have signed for 1 item or 1000 it is still proof the item has been received.

Opinions given herein are made informally by myself as a lay-person in good faith based on personal experience. For legal advice you must always consult a registered and insured lawyer.

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Also what you say about Recorded v Special Delivery is wrong - both can be signed for in bulk. In any event I don't see what difference this would make as whether they have signed for 1 item or 1000 it is still proof the item has been received.

 

Barracad,

 

You have not done your research. I send out several contracts a week to my customers,they are all sent RM Special Delivery for the specific reason that EACH has to be signed for individually and can be checked and printed out from the RM website for the date, time, name and department of the person that had accepted delivery. This means that you have 100% proof of posting and proof of acceptance. Why do you think when a court summons is sent by post that it is sent RMSD. When sending a recorded delivery to a large company these items are delivered in bulk sacks and signed for in batches, thus meaning you do not have 100% proof of delivery as each letter does not have a signature. You don't have to take my word, check it out with RM.

 

If the contract was made online and was not an upgrade and within the specified time period, then for whatever reason the contract can be cancelled and the handset returned. Sorry it's a fact.

 

With regards to posting #3, I think if you check you will find that no matter what is put within the CPW paperwork you will find at the top of the T&C under 'Your Rights To Change Your Mind' it states that 'this agreement does not affect your statutory rights'. Part of your statutory rights are, that if it was purchased online or over the phone you are covered by DSR, in the case of CPW contracts it's 7 days. It is written there in black & white, or blue and white in this case. It is usually a longer period, but we are talking about CPW here! You will find that 99.999% of all agreements will have a cooling off period, it's the law. Thank God.

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Sorry, I'm with Barracad ion this. BOTH services provide receipt on delivery, and if RM do not obtain the signature you are paying extra for, you are due a refund. The benefit from SD is that folk sometimes will accept the item thinking there is something valuable inside (because of the increased levels of compensation) but if you are only sending paper you're only boosting RMs profits.

 

You ask why the courts use RMSD? They certainly do not in Scotland, and they do not use RD either. They have the power to decree that the item was delivered to the recipient 2 days after posting, and do not care whether it was signed for or not.

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You have not done your research.

 

You seem to have some misunderstandings, so I will clarify a few points if I may:

 

they are all sent RM Special Delivery for the specific reason that EACH has to be signed for individually

 

No, they can be signed for in bulk, in exactly the same way as Recorded Delivery can be. If a company receives 1,000 Special Delivery items a day, do you think the poor receptionist will spend all day signing for them? I don't know the exact number, but any more than about half a dozen Specials delivered at once will be signed for on a 'bulk delivery card'.

 

can be checked and printed out from the RM website for the date, time, name

 

Correct. So can Recorded Delivery.

 

and department of the person

 

They only need to sign and print their name, they do not need to give their department or any other such details.

 

This means that you have 100% proof of posting and proof of acceptance.

 

Same with Recorded Delivery.

 

Why do you think when a court summons is sent by post that it is sent RMSD.

 

It is sent by First Class post, not Recorded or Special.

 

When sending a recorded delivery to a large company these items are delivered in bulk sacks and signed for in batches, thus meaning you do not have 100% proof of delivery as each letter does not have a signature.

 

If the company signs for an item, this is proof they have received it - whether it was placed into their hand, or in a sack full of Special/Recorded items - by signing for the item they are confirming they have definitely received it.

 

You don't have to take my word, check it out with RM.

 

Likewise. What I have said above is 100% accurate - if you don't believe me then confirm with RM yourself - their number is 08457 740 740.

 

If the contract was made online and was not an upgrade and within the specified time period, then for whatever reason the contract can be cancelled and the handset returned. Sorry it's a fact.

 

That's not quite correct. As stated in #3 - services that begin, by agreement, before the end of the cancellation period, are exempt from Distance Selling Regulations - providing the supplier has informed the consumer before the conclusion of the contract that he will not be able to cancel once performance of the services has begun with his agreement.

 

Sorry, it's a fact.

Opinions given herein are made informally by myself as a lay-person in good faith based on personal experience. For legal advice you must always consult a registered and insured lawyer.

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You seem to have some misunderstandings, so I will clarify a few points if I may:

 

No misunderstandings, no points to clarify:

 

This is a fact from company day to day working practice, both the dealing and overseeing the receipt and the sending of important documents via RMSD & RD.

 

Also from the personal experience of the cancellation of not one, but two contracts under DSR with two networks.

 

From what you have quoted you obviously still have not done enough research. I'm sorry it's upset you but no matter how many points you want to clarify, facts are facts.

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What I have said above is 100% accurate - if you don't believe me then confirm with RM yourself - their number is 08457 740 740.

 

..

Opinions given herein are made informally by myself as a lay-person in good faith based on personal experience. For legal advice you must always consult a registered and insured lawyer.

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