Template letter for SORN fines

[crem]

I got the same Late License Penalty as everyone else here,

i just don't know whether it is worth trying to fight my case or to pay the £80 fine and get it out of the way.

 

Can anyone help?

 

It depends why you would be challenging it (Are you adamant a SORN was sent correctly and on time) and are you up for a good fight coz DVLA aren't in the habit of letting go once they get their teeth into you. , well at least not until they have deprived you of at least an arm and a leg!

[mrwhite]

It depends why you would be challenging it (Are you adamant a SORN was sent correctly and on time) and are you up for a good fight coz DVLA aren't in the habit of letting go once they get their teeth into you. , well at least not until they have deprived you of at least an arm and a leg!

Not sure if i make a good challenge but what happened was I did not receive the SORN reminder (V5), i thought i could not SORN without it. I did not know when it was due and eventually managed to do it online.

 

Apparently i was a month late to SORN it.

 

I'm not denying it was not SORN on time, but i feel this was an honest mistake that could have been avoided if the DVLA would of sent me the reminder.

[crem]

Not sure that would stand up as a defence. The VED and SORN remiders are very useful and I am sure many of us are surprised it is due when the letter drops through the letterbox and might have missed it otherwise, but these reminders are not legally required to be issued AFAIK.

 

To claim you missed renewing it because the DVLA did not send you a letter that they are not legally required to send is going to be a little dubious as a defence.

[mrwhite]

To claim you missed renewing it because the DVLA did not send you a letter that they are not legally required to send is going to be a little dubious as a defence.

I thought so,

 

do you think i have no other options other than pay the fine?

 

and do you think as it was my first time the DVLA would consider it and drop the fine or maybe at least reduce it?

[crem]

I thought so,

 

do you think i have no other options other than pay the fine?

Honestly, I don't think so. Someone else may know better

and do you think as it was my first time the DVLA would consider it and drop the fine or maybe at least reduce it?

The DVLA are not known for being sensible, reasonable or sympathetic. Even when they are wrong (which is most of the time) they still want blood.

..

Edited May 29, 2009 by crem

[lola407vga]

I am now totally confused.

 

I receive V11 to tax a car when RFL due

 

It was off the road and would not be roadworthy again - ie bought for spares.

 

vehicle SORNed via post office

 

vehicle scrapped before SORN expires - V5 part x sent to DVLA

 

What is DVLA next move if all above received by DVLA? = an acknowledgement letter?

 

What is DVLA next move if V5 is NOT received by DVLA? do they send out V11 to retax/reSORN?

 

This all happened in 2004/5, so no I don't still have the acknowledgement letter. The latest offering from the DVLA is a tick box letter - informing me that I didn't respond to not getting this letter - no mention of them not being informed that the vehicle was scrapped. Plus an instruction to "deal" with the DCA - who I believe can only collect a debt with no power to deal with any appeal.

 

I am reluctant to "settle" this by bribing them to go away - ie pay up - so what now? any suggestions - I am sending DVLA another letter asking them to verify the position but am keeping the template letter until they confirm exactly what I stand accused of ;-[

[mrwhite]

This all happened in 2004/5, so no I don't still have the acknowledgement letter

2004/5 thats a while back! Have they tried to contact you during that time?

 

why are they DVLA bringing it up now?

[Spunkymonkey]

Mr White - depending on what you've already told them, it seems to me that what happened in your case was that you sent the form off in time then, when you hadn't received the promised reply within 4 weeks (a month I believe) you promptly went online and completed the SORN there instead?

[Spunkymonkey]

Lola, in your case I'd suggest sticking firmly to the line that you sent the required documents at the required times. Tell DVLA that you will not pay until they can prove in court that you owe this money and that you'll consider the involvement of a DCA as harassment.

 

If a DCA contacts you tell them that the debt is in dispute and demand that they refer back to DVLA.

 

It's clearly unreasonable to expect you to keep an acknowledgement letter for 4 years and, if their system was as reliable as they like to claim, you would have had at least a road tax reminder before now to alert you to the fact there was a problem. After 4 years without such a warning that things were not right, you could reasonably be expected to have thrown any acknowledgement away!

[mrwhite]

Mr White - depending on what you've already told them, it seems to me that what happened in your case was that you sent the form off in time then, when you hadn't received the promised reply within 4 weeks (a month I believe) you promptly went online and completed the SORN there instead?

Spunkymonky - thanks for the reply,

 

So far the only contact with the DVLA has been a phone call and them giving me no information but to contact the debt-company.

 

Inter-credit has sent me 3 letters so far the last one saying i have 72 hours to pay or legal proceedings will be instituted to recover full amount and legal costs.

 

Again only a phone call to inter-credit , the only information they had was when the fine was issued.

 

What will happen if i just ignore them? because they are sending the letters to an address where the car was never registered at.

[Spunkymonkey]

Don't ignore or they will (probably) start legal proceedings.

 

Write to them stating simply that you dispute the alleged debt and require them to refer it back to DVLA according to OFT guidelines on debt collection.

 

Also write to DVLA stating that you've done this, that you submitted an online SORN as soon as you realised that you'd had no acknowledgement within 4 weeks of the postal notice you'd sent to them on time (that is how it happened isn't it? ). Add that you will continue to dispute the alleged debt, and will not deal with a third party, until they prove you owe the money in court.

 

They will tell you that they're starting legal action but they (almost certainly) won't.

[mrwhite]

Spunkymonkey - thanks

 

I will try and look for that acknowledgement letter and double check with my son on the dates and if it was sent.

 

Do the DVLA have an e-mail address? or is it post only?

 

and do you know which department to send it to?

 

by the way hows your case going?

[crem]

Spunkymonkey - thanks

 

I will try and look for that acknowledgement letter and double check with my son on the dates and if it was sent.

 

What's there to "double check?, of course it was sent on time, followed up with the online SORN when their acknowledgement letter didn't arrive just like you are supposed to.

Do the DVLA have an e-mail address? or is it post only?

 

I would send post only and send it "registered". Costs a couple of quid but shows your firm stance that you are right and gives them no opportunity to claim "lost mail". I would even put some comment in the letter that you have to go to this expense as they clearly have been loosing mail like your correctly submitted SORN in the first place.

 

Also lodge an official complaint regarding the orginal lost SORN letter because, as has been discussed on this forum before, DVLA only record a letter as being "lost" in their system if they receive a official complaint and not just a "suggestion" that you sent something that has gone missing.

[mrwhite]

crem -

Also lodge an official complaint

How do you do this?

[crem]

More or less just as you would have done if you'd telephoned them to complain they'd lost it, except you do it in writing.

 

Including a sentence like "please take this as a formal complaint regarding your loss of my SORN document that I sent to you on or around date xx/xx/xxxx" should make it pretty clear that you've lodged an official complaint. Go on to point out that you expect an official reply following their investigation of their cock-up.

[lola407vga]

Lola, in your case I'd suggest sticking firmly to the line that you sent the required documents at the required times.

 

Thanks for the advice

 

letter sent - proof in court not mentioned, but have requested all info regarding vehicle/ myself again. They have admitted not holding copies of the two letters they sent and have sent copies of form letters with no details - ie they are relying on their database telling them these letters have been generated and sent.

 

Still worried though - after SORNing a vehicle does the DVLA send out a V11 for retaxing after 12 months, or do they expect you to re SORN without any reminder?

 

Will keep developments posted - one point in my favour - the DVLA advised me to contact the wrong DCA , which i am considering doing on the assumption that my details will only be held by one DCA. Hopefully this will add fuel to my claim - they can't even keep this track of this information:wink:.

[patdavies]

Still worried though - after SORNing a vehicle does the DVLA send out a V11 for retaxing after 12 months, or do they expect you to re SORN without any reminder?

.

 

There is no requirement for DVLA to ever send out a V11.

 

It is the RK's responsibility in law to ensure either SORN or VED at all times.

[lola407vga]

There is no requirement for DVLA to ever send out a V11.

 

It is the RK's responsibility in law to ensure either SORN or VED at all times.

 

This is what the DVLA have now told me - so how do you relicense a vehicle without a V11? - I would need that to go to the post office or have I missed something? Don't know about online taxing, after this mess I don't think I'd trust them or their systems - at least at the post office you get a paper receipt for all transactions.

 

Still battling on though - they are still not acknowledging the possibility that this could all stem from their error, and seem reluctant to divulge any information directly concerning this case. They only seem able to give stock answers.

 

I suppose the crux is I posted the section of registration document and they are now telling me that it wasn't received, but that they cannot confirm whether a V11 was sent out (because they don't have to do that)

 

Brain is addled - may add more later:confused:

[patdavies]

This is what the DVLA have now told me - so how do you relicense a vehicle without a V11? - I would need that to go to the post office or have I missed something? Don't know about online taxing, after this mess I don't think I'd trust them or their systems - at least at the post office you get a paper receipt for all transactions.

 

Via completion of a V10, see here.

 

You present that with either the V5(or the new keeper's part of the V5 if you have just purchased the vehicle)

Edited June 22, 2009 by patdavies

[JonCris]

With on line taxing you print off your own receipt as well as the instant email they send confirming payment

[crem]

With on line taxing you print off your own receipt as well as the instant email they send confirming payment

 

I never bother printing the on-line receipt once I see the e-mail has come in (I never close the VED screen until I see the mail though just in case). Presumably the e-mail, with the receipt number showing is sufficient proof isn't it, or should I be changing how I do it?

[lola407vga]

A quick trip to post office confirmed I can use the registration document to retax a car (found this out before reading the previous posts).

 

This would appear to work if the DVLA failed to send out a V11, but you were still using the car and could see that the tax disc was due to run out.

 

The car I scrapped in 2005 , posted the relevant section of V5 to DVLA then forgot about it. Now they tell me that it is my responsibility to ensure that the car is taxed or SORNed AND they have no statutory obligation to send out reminders - ie a V11, which would have alerted me to the fact that the V5 had gone AWOL

 

Awaiting a reply to see whether anyone remembers posting one to me! Perhaps the V11 was cancelled due to the vehicle being scrapped, or perhaps that was the day the sytem crashed - I don't know and they are not going to admit it either. - the rambling of a madman:(

 

I wonder how many people are affected by similar problems - a letter demanding payment of a fine from a DCA for a vehicle they once owned, and how many people just pay up. - I don't suppose that info is accessible

[nehpets]

How are peoples cases going? Has anyone who has shown any kind of fight (via letters) actually been taken to court yet? I'm still waiting although I am still at the 'DCA letters' stage.

There's a huge part of me that actually wants them to go ahead with court action - just so I can make fools of them in the court room.

The more I have examined these cases the more and more I have started to believe that there could be room for a class action against the DVLA simply due to its underhand tactics in trying to make people pay up. In my opinion they (and their debt collector henchmen) continuously send out "Debt Letters" to people when in fact no debt exists in legal terms. Potential this could represent a number of criminal offences - fraud or attepting to gain money via a deception.

There are other potential infringements to peoples rights. For example where they ask for a statement from you regarding their allegation against you - officially there is no appeals process yet they ask for a statement from you - what purpose does this serve? On providing a statement the cleint risks damaging his ability to defend himself in court. If the DVLA does not have an appeals process then they have no right to ask for evidence from the client. The client is not warned of the risks involved with providing such a statement. The contents of the statement will clearly be used by the DVLA to decide which cases may have more merit (from the DVLA's perspective) in the courts system. With no appeals process the client has absolutely nothing to gain from a dialogue with the DVLA.

We could potentially have a situation where many people have paid because they were hoodwinked over their actual legal position. Both the DVLA and the DCA's paint a picture via their letters / phone calls which is purposefully deceptive and completely incorrect. The letters which the DVLA and DCA's send are nothing more than 'offers' of 'out of court settlement' and these should be clearly labled and worded as such. Furthermore, follow up letters and phone calls from DCA's are effectively unsolicited and unqualified legal advice (given that no debt actually yet exists) (they are effectively trying to pursuade you that the out of court settlement is better than letting the matter go to court). In effect the DVLA are not employing debt collectors (since legally the debt is not proven) but arm bending bully-boy henchmen who will try to influence your decision making through pressure.

This is the UK we're living in mind!

Nehpets.

[Lifesontheup]

As this is a summary offence dealt with at Magistrates' Court, information must be laid before the Court for the issue of a summons within 6 months.

 

So I doubt that they will take the matter to Court

 

Of course, the other (unspoken) issue for DVLA is if they take you to Court and you lose, any fine goes to the Treasury and not DVLA

 

This is a civil offence and therefore goes to County Court not Magistrates. Therefore, they have 6 years to pursue the debt and take to Court.

[Lifesontheup]

How are peoples cases going? Has anyone who has shown any kind of fight (via letters) actually been taken to court yet? I'm still waiting although I am still at the 'DCA letters' stage.

 

There's a huge part of me that actually wants them to go ahead with court action - just so I can make fools of them in the court room.

 

The more I have examined these cases the more and more I have started to believe that there could be room for a class action against the DVLA simply due to its underhand tactics in trying to make people pay up. In my opinion they (and their debt collector henchmen) continuously send out "Debt Letters" to people when in fact no debt exists in legal terms. Potential this could represent a number of criminal offences - fraud or attepting to gain money via a deception.

There are other potential infringements to peoples rights. For example where they ask for a statement from you regarding their allegation against you - officially there is no appeals process yet they ask for a statement from you - what purpose does this serve? On providing a statement the cleint risks damaging his ability to defend himself in court. If the DVLA does not have an appeals process then they have no right to ask for evidence from the client. The client is not warned of the risks involved with providing such a statement. The contents of the statement will clearly be used by the DVLA to decide which cases may have more merit (from the DVLA's perspective) in the courts system. With no appeals process the client has absolutely nothing to gain from a dialogue with the DVLA.

 

We could potentially have a situation where many people have paid because they were hoodwinked over their actual legal position. Both the DVLA and the DCA's paint a picture via their letters / phone calls which is purposefully deceptive and completely incorrect. The letters which the DVLA and DCA's send are nothing more than 'offers' of 'out of court settlement' and these should be clearly labled and worded as such. Furthermore, follow up letters and phone calls from DCA's are effectively unsolicited and unqualified legal advice (given that no debt actually yet exists) (they are effectively trying to pursuade you that the out of court settlement is better than letting the matter go to court). In effect the DVLA are not employing debt collectors (since legally the debt is not proven) but arm bending bully-boy henchmen who will try to influence your decision making through pressure.

 

This is the UK we're living in mind!

 

 

Nehpets.

 

Mine went to County Court and the DJ went in DVLA favour.

 

In my honest opinion, I would like people to understand that it does NOT always go in your favour rather than the DVLA.

 

Everyone on here saying let them take you to Court and you can slap them down and put in them in their place needs to be aware that they may be setting people up for a fall. Its down to the DJ on the day, I also went down the road that I made an off road notification but without an acknowledgement letter the DJ could not find in my favour.

 

Please understand there is NO guarantee you will win - more like 50/50 chance and with that in mind, the choice is yours.