UKPC PCN - walked off site -advice please?

[emmylou38]

Hi everyone - I'm fuming.

 

During our summer holiday we stopped at a retail park in plymouth to treat my older son for his birthday that day at Pizza Hut.

We went to get a bottle of water for our baby, went to pizza hut and when we returned found we had a civil parking notice!

 

They had watched us walk out of the carpark, then 2 mins later slapped the ticket on.

We approached them on the spot as we could prove that we had used facilities within the 4hr time frame but they didn't want to know.

They even told us to contact Plymouth City Council as they would be the ticket issuer

- obviously we now realise they were lying to get us to leave!

 

I took a photo of the sign there as it didn't say anything about leaving the park!

We wrote an appeal letter, and all points were ignored in their response saying to pay up.

 

I wrote another letter saying because they ignored and couldn't disprove my points, I wanted a copy of their complaints procedure and the legislation to which they operate under.

 

Just received a reply saying not cancelling

- still not disproving or going through any points

- not enclosing their complaints procedure or legislation details but telling us if we don't cough up in 14 days they will pass to debt recovery agency!

 

They also say that any further correspondence will be filed but not responded to! I'm not sure what to do now as I am NOT paying a penny to these bullies

. I may even put a sign on my gate saying something like

- anyone associated with ukpc ltd enters onto this private land will be subject to an £80 fine for trespassing!

Works both ways. I'm livid.

 

Has there been any progress on people getting cases together to try and beat these parasites?

I've given all details to the BPA but as yet havent responded to me or even acknowledged my correspondence.

 

Any advice would be gratefully received! Sorry for lengthy post!

Thanks

[Steve__M]

I assume from reading posts here over the last few days that:

Private Parking company = A company that randomly sends invoices to people they have probably have no evidence of contract with (presumably you can phone the relevant council to find out whether a ticket is issued by the local authority).

Debt recovery company = A company with a slightly scary name that randomly issues invoices with scary wording to people they definitely have no contract with.

 

All letters are issued with the hope that payments are made by scared people, or that people (while appealing to the companies' better natures) admit details that prove they were the driver of the car at the time of the alleged offence.

 

Since appeals etc. are always ignored, surely all responses should take the form of a standard letter designed to save time and heartache, and that do not tell them any information. I am not a lawyer, but I would write:

 

 

---

 

I am in receipt of your communication dated xxx regarding yyy:

 

Please provide a statement of your claim that includes all of the following:

1. Proof that I have a contract with you.

2. A copy of the terms and conditions of the alleged contract.

3. Proof that I have broken the alleged contract and/or that I am subject to the charges that you allege are due under that contract.

4. The damages and/or charges that you maintain arise from the alleged contract and/or breach of contract, and a lawful explanation and justification of those damages and/or charges.

 

As you are a car park company you will no doubt have issued claims in the past, and therefore will have no trouble in issuing a clearly worded claim that covers all of the above, and that can be understood by a layman such as myself.

 

I will review the information you provide, I may seek advice, and will base any response on this.

 

If you choose to issue a claim in court without providing all the information I need to assess the basis of your claim, I reserve the right to ask for my costs to be paid, using all relevant correspondence, including any invoices or demands for payment from third party "debt collection" agencies, as a basis for such request.

 

For your information:

 

I will respond only to communication from your company xxxx. Until and unless judgement is awarded against me in the courts, I will respond to letters that purport to be from "debt collection" companies or agencies by referring them back to you. You should assume that I will deal only with you with respect to this matter unless you provide a lawful reason why your alleged rights under the alleged contract have been passed to a third party.

 

I reserve my rights as follows:

- not to communicate with you further till you have fully explained your claim.

- not to provide you with the name of any other person you believe you may have a contract with. Do not ask unless you explain in law why you have a right to ask me, and why I am required to provide it.

- to make a legal claims against you or to report you to the relevant authorities if I believe you, or your agents, are behaving unlawfully or unreasonably.

---

 

I would respond to "debt collection agencies" by referring them back to the parking company.

 

I would expect further letters of a threatening debt collection nature and just take a deep breath, and write referring them to my previous letter (ie. "I am in receipt of your letter dated xxx. It does not contain all the information I require to assess your claim. I refer you to my previous letter - copy enclosed"). Only in the unlikely event that they provide all the information I asked for would I take further advice.

 

While I am not a lawyer, the first part (up to the "For your information" bit) appears to be working well for me at the moment in a different legal matter.

[Zamzara]

I wouldn't even bother with all that: why give them your time? I would just write 2 lines giving them 14 days to sue or drop the matter: this ensures they cannot increase the charges by adding false 'recovery costs'. If they go to court they will be laughed out, especially in an obviously frivolous case like the OP's.

[Andy7807]

I have been dealing with UKPC over an issued ticket since February. We have refused to pay, it went to their debt collectors, Hunter Forester ( trying to sould like solicitors), they threatened court action if it wasn't paid, I told them we weren't paying and to return it to UKPC, which they did and we haven't heard from them since about May time.

[Steve__M]

Zamzara, you may be right. But from my own experience, unless one is certain of one's ground (and many people here clearly are not) opening yet another letter from the scumbags can be disheartening and upsetting. Sometimes the stress does not go away till you have got it off your chest by replying.

 

If you have a formal letter that preempts everything you know they are going to do in the future, then all correspondence is easy - you send them the standard letter and don't even think about "appealing". You reply by return of post to any of their predictable replies by referring them back to the original letter and, you stop replying when the letters stop upsetting you. You feel good about yourself for covering your back. And you avoid the risk of giving them information that you don't want them to have, and (I would hope that) you vastly reduce the risk (however slight in the first case) that they will issue a claim against you in court without first giving you the opportunity to review the evidence.

[DeafSteve]

Hi Emmylou, I had a similar problem with UKPC, I was shopping at a retail park and crossed the road to post a letter.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/parking-traffic-wardens/68547-letters-private-parking-companies.html#post823227

 

I wrote the letter I posted in the above thread. Heard nothing since April but I will fight them all the way should they wish it.

[Bookworm]

Please note that you should NOT write "without prejudice" on any letter. "without prejudice" means that you won't be able to use it in court at a later stage.

[Steve__M]

Please note that you should NOT write "without prejudice" on any letter. "without prejudice" means that you won't be able to use it in court at a later stage.

 

Bookworm, I will bow to your better judgement, and googling confirms it. I included it because it includes a suggestion that I will offer to settle if they provide the information, but it probably isn't necessary. Perhaps I would instead say:

 

I will review the information you provide, I may seek advice, and will base any response on this.

 

I'll try and edit my previous post.

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

Please note that you should NOT write "without prejudice" on any letter. "without prejudice" means that you won't be able to use it in court at a later stage.

 

That's the general intent but it's not always the way that it is. For example letters sent "without prejudice" can be shown to the court as evidence of bad faith in settlement negotiations.

 

The time when you may wish to send a letter "without prejudice" would be if you wished, for example, to make an offer for commercial or pragmatic reasons to settle a claim against you but wanted to do so without admitting liability or to deny all liability if the offer was declined.

 

What I do accept is that in the circumstances we are talking about here "without prejudice" is inappropriate. ". . . NOT . . . on any . . ." could give the wong impression.

[emmylou38]

Thanks for your responses - I will read all the suggestions thoroughly and draft a suitable response! They said in their letter that we have until 1 Oct to pay else goes to debt collection! These idiots need an independent government body or someone to monitor their bully behavior. They just do as they please. Well not this time....!! Will post update soon!

[Zamzara]

Debt collection is meaningless: all they do is write and tell you to pay. It is designed to sound scary to get people to pay but there really is nothing they can do.

[emmylou38]

What a joke! Have today received a response from the British Parking Association who basically say there is nothing they can do except to pass on details of the complaint to UKPC - well we all know where that will end up! They also said: I regret to say that at the present time we have no legal authority to control parking enforcement activities on private land and there is little we can do to help you in your complaint.

 

In England and Wales the law only regulates parking enforcement on public roads; however from May 2005 (??? IS THIS DATE RIGHT) anyone engaged in parking enforcement, using clamping on private land has to be licensed by the Security Industry Authority (SIA). Members of the BPA involved in this work have signed up to a voluntary Code of Practice for Vehicle Immobilising and Removals and we do encourage our Members who may occasionally be in breach of this Code to ensure that the situation is remedied. A similar code of practice has just been launched to cover issuing of Parking Tickets on private land and an Approved Operator Scheme is being developed to cover both clamping and ticketing on private land, with compliance monitoring as part of the terms and conditions.

 

At the present time therefore, all complaints received against members are logged and passed to them for review, comment and further action where appropriate. Your complaint has been passed to a senior contact at Director level at UKPC who investigate your case.

 

What a laugh! It makes me so mad as there are a few things on the BPA website such as a press release dated April 2007 saying: "Rogue companies which issue parking tickets on private land will be driven out of the market thanks to an initiative set to be enforced later this year. From October 2007, the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA) will release vehicle registration information only to those companies which are members of an Accredited Trade Association."

 

What good is this, especially when many of these companies don't seem to comply with the BPA code of practice anyway. Its all a waste of time with them as they must have received many complaints but seem unwilling to do anything about it. I could find a number of BPAs code of contact points that UKPC haven't met - I have replied to BPA but doubt they will respond. There is no way on this earth I am paying this charge......

[Big Man]

Hi Emmylou 38

 

At last someone else who has been nabbed at Barbican Liesure Park, I have recieved loads of garbage from UKPC over an alleged parking offence in July, also whilst visiting Pizza Hut. I have done all the necessary appeals rubbish and recieve the same reply every time, basically we are right and you are wrong, so pay up ! Thier last letter, this week, gave me another 14 days to pay £40, or they will pass it on to the debt recovery agency, which incidentially is the same firm as UKPC, just a different name. But I have already told them several times, I am not paying and will see them in court !

 

I did try a different tack, I found the UKPC directors names and addresses via Companies House website, I then sent letters, recorded delivery, to thier home addresses, just to see how they like being harrased, guess what, the letters were refused and returned to me.

 

I have been to court once already this year on bank charges, kicked LLoyds TSB up the backside, so cant wait to get these clowns up in front of the judge.

 

My advice to all being bothered by UKPC, is to hang in there, whatever you do, dont pay em, and stick it out. YOU WILL WIN !

[emmylou38]

Thanks Big Man! I will not be paying them a penny. They are not prepared to listen. I've now written back to them to say they have until 1 October to provide the information I asked for else sue me or drop it!

 

I must admit though I did feel quite intimidated when I stood right in front of their station at the Barbican Centre with my digital camera in hand taking photos of the sign there (which of course mentions nothing about leaving the park)! A big guy came out and just stood trying to look mean. Got the pics though. When we went in there beforehand to tell them we had a Pizza Hut receipt he said too late, and told us to contact Plymouth City Council as they would be issuing the ticket. Not knowing the area, and not knowing any better we did, then quickly realised it was nothing to do with the Council. What a liar - oh but not enough to break the British Parking Association code! Aaagh, these people.....

[Big Man]

Hi all

Just been reading my latest letter from UKPC, and noticed the tone had softened quite a bit, they are trying be all nice and pleading for me to please pay and offering a further 50% discount for 14 days. I will try and scan it, and post it on here. sure you will all appreciate a laugh

 

emmylou38, I am going to Plymouth next Sunday, my son lives there, so I plan to go to the car park and take some photos, might even try and get another pcn, I just hope the UKPC gorrilla does'nt try and intimidate me, cos I am more than match for him, being a solid 6ft 4in muscle man myself. Will let you know how I get on. Of course I am not intending violence of any kind, I am a gentle person really, but will not be pushed around by these flunky's.

[Steve__M]

emmylou38, I am going to Plymouth next Sunday, my son lives there, so I plan to go to the car park and take some photos, might even try and get another pcn, I just hope the UKPC gorrilla does'nt try and intimidate me, cos I am more than match for him, being a solid 6ft 4in muscle man myself. Will let you know how I get on. Of course I am not intending violence of any kind, I am a gentle person really, but will not be pushed around by these flunky's.

 

If you get a ticket once, you can fairly argue that you were not aware of the terms and conditions of the carpark, and therefore you did not accept any contract to pay the excess parking fees.

 

If you get a ticket a second time, particularly if you are also taking a photo of the terms and conditions, this argument can't be made. By deliberately parking in away that according to the terms and conditions requires a fee to be paid, you are communicating acceptance of those terms and conditions and thus creating a contract.

 

 

Not a lawyer, but I've just been on a course about contracts

[emmylou38]

I have to say, I wouldn't grace them with my presence for a second time and give them the damn satisfaction. I for one, won't ever

cross foot in the Barbican Leisure park ever again. I have just found out who the owners of the leisure park and the car park are so I am going to write to them about the bullies they employ and that they are losing their clients in the park valued customers. Perhaps Big Man you should do the same. Let me know and I'll post the address etc.

 

I obviously don't want to get into the ins and outs of my ticket with them, but want to get my point across.

 

Anyone any advice on how to word this? Thanks.

[Big Man]

HI all

 

Thanks for that advice Steve M, I best behave myself then, and park properly.

 

emmylou38 I would love the address of the owners of Barbican Liesure Park, and like yourself, I wont be spending any money there again, as it happened the food we had in Pizza Hut that day was absolutely diabolical anyway !

[emmylou38]

Hey Big Man

Its owned by Sutton Harbour Holdings. Here's who to write to:

Nigel Godefroy

Managing Director

Sutton Harbour Holdings

North Quay House

Sutton Harbour

Plymouth, PL4 ORA

Can't complain about the food at Pizza Hut, only the fact that it was a lunch time treat for our eldest son's 10th birthday which was actually on that day! We showed the bully boys the receipt and tried to even appeal to their better nature about it being his birthday, but now I know they don't have a better nature - or one at all come to think of it....

[BENNYBOY70]

recently recieved a letter from ukpc about an alleged infringement in catford retail park in London. The sad thing is on the said day, i was just leaving Lidl, a shop within the shopping centre when i saw the ticket on my car. I approached one of the parking attendant and on seeing my shopping bag, he collected the ticket from me and told me he will take care of it. I completly forgot about the matter until about 3 weeks later when i saw thier letter in the post.

I replied and told them i was shopping and relayed the action of thier attendant.

In response, UKPC agreed to cancel the charge only if i could show any reciept from purchases i made on that day.

I dont have the reciept as i cannot be keeping a reciept for that long. and no, i did not pay by card.

Any ideas about what my next line of action should be? thanks in anticipation

[kiptower]

take a little time to read other POSTS on private parking Co's its NOT a parking FINE its a Civil Invoice and there is one answer IGNORE anything they send, they rely on you not knowing the LAW and try to scare you into paying,

 

If you have to use LIDL's use the one in Southend Lane better shop and just been refitted I am told, I had a run in there once @ Catford the Piers Morgan telling me as my badge was not on display when i pulled up and only put it on the screen when he approached, he soon ran off when I told him I would drag him by the scruff of his scrawney little neck to catford police station, needless to say I never heard any more,

 

also made a complaint to the store manager, his excuse was we dont control them they are from the actual shopping centre, then told him i'm off to Aldi's down the road to spend my usual £100 it was a picture to see the managers jaw drop as I walked out, didnt tell him I actually went to their other store in Southend Lane and spend the £30 I was going to spend

[Consumer dude]

My oh was issed with a PCN and it states that it is an alleged parking contravention. (stopping in a bus lane (code 47) which if true that she did then of course she should pay it. My point is about why they feel the need to use the word alleged parking contravention. Are they not sure ?? just awaiting image to arrive. All views welcome..

[Al27]

It's decriminalised, so they use the word 'contravention'. You have the right of appeal, so the contravention is only alleged. If you pay, you admit the allegation.

 

You can't be arrested for murder, only on suspicion of murder.

[Consumer dude]

It's decriminalised, so they use the word 'contravention'. You have the right of appeal, so the contravention is only alleged. If you pay, you admit the allegation.

 

You can't be arrested for murder, only on suspicion of murder.

 

They are sending a still image. Will that be evidence or will they also have cctv. Should it be paid in the mean time at the reduced amount regardless if oh appeals.

[crem]

 

You can't be arrested for murder, only on suspicion of murder.

 

So if I kill someone, then rush into the police station and admit it, does that mean they can't arrest me for it coz it's no longer a suspicion?