They could have worked it out like orfoster did above. Err on the side of caution do not trust HR they are trained in the dark arts.

Sounds very interesting. Normally these things are done in writing. I agree with you though that for a senior manager to travel 200 miles for a 1 to 1 means it may be significant.

Don't get you hopes up though. You could ask to attend for moral support.

File it. You can always withdraw. However you should also liaise with your legal insurer and ask their advice as to what to do, as they may not cover you if you do so without their permission.

Forgive my cynicism, but if HR know you have 2 weeks to a legal deadline and they say they will take more than 2 weeks..... well they are playing you.

They may give an impression of being helpful and with you on it but see the attitude change when you cause them a legal headache. Filing will give them motivation to sort it out or turn on you. Wait for the backblast after you file!!!

Put in a Grievance alleging that stating that it is unfair to a) not allow you to book a holiday until when they say you can as that limits your ability to get an economic deal b) as a male you feel that if the company allow two single mothers off again at Christmas when you have already asked for time off that it may be discriminatory.

Hopefully, they will see that their selection methods need to be fair and open or else they risk a sex discrimination case.

Good luck. Try and not be phased by their actions. Present you case with confidence. They will be very aware that you are alleging discrimination and that their decisions if made unfairly may further discriminate and victimise you. Consequently they will be just as nervous. Not many staff take employers on, it says a lot about you that you want to and feel the need for justice.

Have you evidence of the written warning? It sounds as if the Trust may not? Also was that the only charge the police laid at the time?

Depends if you actually want to get into dispute?

It all boils down to how committed you are in fighting. If you feel you cannot fight then this effectively forces them to a position they don't want to go to. If they refuse, or comply and then decline the OH advice, where does that leave you? You either comply with their view of things or fight. These things tend to escalate... be ready for it or capitulate for health sake.

Hello there. papa, I don't know why you can't contact site team, you should be able to. Would either you or steview like to send a PM to me and see if it works?

 

I'm also happy to forward messages.

 

HB

Sent PM.

Thank you Stu, just having a read through now

Papa I haven't heard back about the PM problem, is there anyway you can post your guidance on here in general terms without copying and pasting from the document? I'd really appreciate your input

No, sorry. Let's wait and see what the Mods do.

What should you ask for? Well as the white woman has only 8 months service, I believe they could readvertise the post citing that there was a flaw in the process. Then there could be a rethink and fairer application.

problem is that they would then merely employ her again. Leaving you in the same position..

So better would be go the ET route and and ask for compensation. However for this to work I think you may also lose because you excluded yourself from the process in favour of the asian woman. You should highlight that you feel you are qualified for the mposition and the only reason you did not apply was because the process was supposed to be external. You may have to think of a reason why you recommended the other woman.

Are you able to send it to ims21 and he/she can forward it to me?

This is weird. can't send it to site team either !! Don't know what is happening here.

I tried setting up a new account in case there was a problem with PMs on my old account. I thought it might help solve the problem

No it is too long.

Thanks, I'll PM you now ims21

Have you changed accounts? Closed the on e down you PM'd me? I notice your tag name has changed!!

Hi Papa, it's silly isn't it... I tihnk I've been banned from PMs for some reason. Can you send to this account please? I don't think I'll be able to write back but I can receive it and then discuss on this thread after that(?)

It isn't letting me. I have written to the Mods.

Papa Smurf for some reason I can't send PMs, I'm not sure if I can receive them so if you have any advice regarding the document I sent you would it be OK to post it in here please? Please don't paste the document in here, as it has some specifics I wasn't going to put in here just in case.

I have made some changes additions, deletions and comments. What do you want me to do? I tried PM'ing you but it doesn't allow me either. Perhaps the Mods can explain what the problem is. I will notify them.

Once you have got the official ball rolling these things normally end up in a compromise agreement. Along with any compensation they agree to things like apologies and references are common requests to get you to withdraw a ET claim. It is a rough ride and you will get upset about the lies. Stick with it and you will win through in the end.

How about writing about you experiences in general terms. Make a word document paragraph it and lost it in chunks so we can read it one post after the other in order to get it above the 30. Answer this post and Madari's post separately and that will eat another 2 away.

Ok Kieri not wanting to go back is a positive move on your part which can define how you can tactically move your interests forward.

Put in the grievance along with the appeal letter. Do not offer AT ALL anything that will show you are weak. These cases are generally about who blinks first. They are also about (for the employer) keeping legal costs to a minimum. Getting a settlement as cheaply as possible generally means compromise at some stage. That can be an ACAS mediation, but that does not happen until you have played out the internal processes and issued an ET1. Once an ET1 has been issued the employer HAS to address the LEGAL arguments and all internal bias has to be put to one side.

If you present an arguable case (note not one that is watertight) then even a weak hand can win, or at least be what you call a win.

Pm me if you want, but others may be in a better position than me, but at least I can make a start at it for you.

I believe it was standard, and as per the IiP guidlines he called a staff meeting to inform us we had lost it, but not clear on why, thats why I wanted to see it, as we are a charity he is answerable to the board of trustees, and i think he has laid the blame at our feet to cover himself for not acting on what staff had already told him. We are due to be inspected again in November and from what the Ops manager has said the line managers may be a bit more assertive in their management.If thats the case I dont think the November re think will go down well either. We the staff are passionate about our work and are dissapointed we have lost the accreditaton and will not be held too be responsible for it after a tough year busting a butt to get our work done for the homeless, not to pander to a few social climbing egos.

Many thanks for the reply

Do the CEO's legs and write to the trustees as well as him. State that you don't feel that the workers should be blamed for management shortcomings and you could also list them if you feel particularly brave. Expect fireworks and even disciplinary action because these type of actions are a direct threat to management credibility and their own jobs.

Depends on how much you want your job!!!

Sometimes it needs just one good person to say no and tell those in power how it really stands.... but sometimes the messenger does get shot.

Good luck moll...... keep us posted, some posts / fights get really interesting and I suspect this is one of them.

Thank you, that makes sense... so should I be saying they didn't follow their capability policy and discuss ways forward for me to get some medical help while keeping my job. They also don't have an alcohol policy. Not having these policies helps them in a way because I can't say oh you should have followed your alcohol policy, etc because they don't have one. I'm not sure whether there's a way to put in my appeal that they don't have these policies and they should have them. Even the capability thing talks more about lack of training rather than someone who is sick.

I agree with madari don't say too much but you do need to raise it in a way that alludes to shortcomings. By raising these problems in an appeal and lodging a grievance it may give them pause for thought and reverse the decision.

However even if you raise these and win, expect that your grievance will be lost. There then will be a period where new policies will be introduced and you will be closely 'supervised' for the future. Eventually they will find something to tie to you to get rid of you.

What I am suggesting is do you actually want your job back or to take them to the ET and try and find a new job?

If it is the ET route, are you up to the task, because it takes a lot out of you fighting for what you think is right and there is no certainty of success?

The point about raising the discriminatory allegations in the appeal means that by confirming the dismissal, those making the decision may be guilty of victimisation because they will have taken an action to your detriment (dismissal) in the full knowledge that you have raised a grievance about discriminatory shortcomings they have and specifically they were raise at the appeal they are dealing with for reinstatement. So it makes it personal to those managers.

Even if you are not entitled to see this report, why don't you write and ask for it to be disclosed?

To be honest if management cannot be trusted to invest in their own people because they don't listen to justified concerns that have been raised, then they have reaped what they have sown. It is a two way street, if they are cr*p management, then senior managers need to take action and that surely starts with acknowledging that those workers at the coalface know who and who is not managing them well.

Perhaps they need you moll to say it. I advise writing it.

Oh and who would want to work for them anyway?

Please can you elaborate on what type of problem you have with the employer.

For example if the matter is a discrimination matter then the union could also be discriminating against you and you may need to take some action there too, so knowing the nature of the grievance you have will help us to advice better.

Yes I told them numerous times about my illness and they did not ask for any information or refer me to a doctor or OH.

 

ETA: Is not following their policy discrimination? Yes because they make a policy and are expected to follow it for all employees not just those that they want to. I would have thought it was more unfair dismissal but I'm not sure? It is both. Thanks for your help

 

ETA2: There is no sickness policy, just capability and absence management. So, by not having a fair and even handed approach they just make it up as they go. !! There should be a thought out policy as to how they approach sickness. They did not follow the capability policy as they considered it conduct not capability. As you point out you can be capable even when ill.

You have to link your known depression to the act that dismissd you. You have to show that they treated you less favourably to other emplyeees that have had illness.

It would help if the summarily dismissed you without taking advice from a doctor or OH consultant. have they a policy on sickness? Did they follow it? If not then you can say in your appeal that you were discriminated against because they knew about your illness and did not foillow their own policy.

Mention discrimination and raise a grievance immediately to suggest that you were treated differently.

I agree more info would be handy...

I agree with lbruk.

From what you have written it seems that he handled it badly as he stayed on after the discussion and so although saying he has been constructively dismissed he continued to be employed.

CD implies a total breakdown of trust and consequent resignation when that has been indicated to the employer. He waited for them to take action and was dismissed. However.....

it could be argued that the jacked up charges are an indication of the very nature of the things that had happened to him. I am supposing he has documented all the problems and meetings that he has been excluded from?

So as he has now been dismissed you have to make your mind up as to what you do. You could call their bluff and issue a ET case and see how far that goes, but it may well be tough and it is far from certain that you will win.

There is another factor to consider, companies invariably make "economic" decisions as to settling cases and it is sometimes cheaper to settle than to proceed with accompanying legal cost to pay. Once the ET1 has been issued they HAVE to deal with it and that is where you could perhaps win through.

All you need is a ARGUABLE case not a watertight one... give them the headache if you have the desire and stamina to do so.