Shall I send it to the woman who wrote to me re the complaint? whose letter I never received

Thank you for taking the time to reply - and the advice

Bumpity Bump Can anybody help please?

Right, this is doing my head in now, help would be much appreciated. To date - new DCA passed BOS debt, sent letter saying it was in dispute, they replied saying they would look into it, today reply received saying it is not in dispute (please help me God) and enclosed a copy of a letter dated 2007 from HBOS (as now are) compliance officer regarding my complaint. They (HBOS) say the account is not in dispute, I requested CCA and supporting documents from Blair, Oliver Scott and these were sent to me on such and such a date therefore my complaint has been answered and £xxxx is outstanding. Do these people not read the actual letters or are they just dumb. I have no idea how to respond now, this letter was apperently sent 2 years ago but I did not receive it, I'm of a mind to just send the letter in post 27 by 42Man to both this compliance person and copy it to new DCA? Would that be ok?

Could anybody please help with regards of what I can now write to BOS, sent the "bemused" letter to new DCA but it seems BOS are not taking me seriously as they just keep passing it on? Thanks in advance

Thanks, they didn't respond to my complaint (see 42mans post - not the bemused letter one, the one he posted before - post 27, thats the one I sent). Sadly its not so good for me, not being SB yet as I made payments, not sure when I stopped though? So have sent "bemused" letter to new DCA but unsure of what to write to BOS???

Anybody any ideas of what to do next?

Here we go again, 2 and a half years later and its passed to another DCA - e-mailed "bemused" letter today, have had no further correspondance from BOS after my complaint letter - is this ever going to go away?

Thanks again 42Man but have sent that to the DCA's it was passed to and they have passed to back to HBOS/Blair Oliver Scott, I should have made myself clearer - the statement I received today was direct from HBOS, as in a normal monthly statement. I havent had one of these for months so I think I need to reply to the statement if thats makes sense, the paragraph about Disputing The Agreement was on the statement. As far as i am aware Blair, Oliver Scott are their in-house debt collectors/solicitors so I think your first letter is the one I should send, yes? Sorry to be a pain.................

Oh sugar, which letter to send.................................. Thank you both though but now I'm stuck. I like letter one, but do I need to make a formal complaint ?....................not very good at this or making decisions..................... P.S. BTW, I donated last Friday so please don't think I'm not appreciative of the CAG

Thank Andy, how do I say that the CCA they sent me is not a true and enforecable CCA?

Gosh, just seen the date on this thread and cant believe it was so long ago, so now to an update of sorts and a plea for help if anybody would mind........................ This was passed to yet another 2 DCA's who I then sent the letter HAK kindly posted, the last been in May, and each in turn passed it back to BOS..................................until this morning when I have received a statement, like the normal monthly statement you receive every month havent had one of these for months but ho hum, anyway, statement arrived this morning, they minimum payment is the whole balance and they want it paid by 3 November but strangly on the bottom of the page that is entitled "SUMMARY OF ACCOUNT" is a paragraph I find, well, I'm not too sure but it says Dispute Resolution If you have a problem with your agreement please try to resolve it with us in the first instance. If you are not happy with the way in which we handled your complaint or the result, you may be able to complain to the FOS. If you do not take up your problem with us first you will not be entitled to the FOS. We can provide details of how to contact the Ombdsman ???????????????????How on earth do I respond to this? Totally confused as I have tried to resolve it by saying there isnt a true CCA. Please can anybody help me with perhaps a letter I can reply with - any help much appreciated, and what do people think of this statement and the paragraph after?

Thanks guys - will now do all of the above.

Just an update, no reply from Ruthless for asking for a copy of their complaints procedure - no suprise there then! In fact no contact at all but upon reporting them to TS, I find that TS are not willing to help, I guess my next port of call if the OFT, is this correct?

It is a total con, I agree but at one time most mortgages, in the majority sub prime mortgages would only be offered if this was included. But like you say, where did it all go when it strongly appears not to have helped the mortagee in any way shape or form. Beggers belief I truly believe that you CANNOT trust any finanical organaistaion anymore but what are people to do, the law certainly doesnt seem to protect the majority of people, hence why the rules around CCA's are so important to many of us as , as far as I am aware, its our only chance of fighting back. If it wasnt for forums like CAG I would imagine that there would be serious implications for people in debt, who in the most, for no fault of their own, are unable to repay their debts in the normal way. How many sucicides relating to debt and repossession do we not know about, how many families have fallen apart and see no way forward. i would be very interested in seeing the exact figures. Though not a long term, regular user of CAG, it has certainly helped me no end in dealing with the barstewards who call themselves DCA's, at a time when my husband was seriously ill. CAG helped me to fight back and I only wish people in dire situations could find these forums in time, which are for many, like myself, a lifeline. I'll stop ranting now and be away to my bed.

I would imagine that it would still apply but...cannot be 100% sure so I would either wait until some clever person on here to come along and give you their wisdom or you could call the NationalDebtLine ~ its a free number ~ 0808 808 4000, not sure what time it is open to though. Glad it helped, will keep an eye on this thread. Edit:Link to Nationdebtline ~ National Debtline England & Wales, for FREE CONFIDENTIAL and INDEPENDENT ADVICE call 0808 808 4000

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Taken from NationalDebtLine, hope it helps, good luck x HOW LONG CAN I BE PURSUED FOR THE DEBT? The legal position under the Limitation Act There has been a lot of confusion about how long the lender has to pursue you for a mortgage shortfall under the Limitation Act 1980. This has now been clarified by the court of appeal in the cases of Bartlett v Bristol & West plc, Paragon v Banks and Halifax v Grant. The court decided that the limitation period for mortgage lenders trying to recover mortgage shortfall debts is 12 years under Section 20 of the Limitation Act 1980. INFORMATION Capital The lender has 12 years from either: the last time a payment was made on the account; or the last time you acknowledged that that you owe the debt; to start action to recover the capital owed on the mortgage. INFORMATION Interest It appears the lender has six years to start action to recover any interest that has been added to the debt. Acknowledgement and payment There are two ways for the 12 year time period to start running: the 12 year time period starts running from the last time the lender contacted you and you agreed in writing that you owed the money. This is known as 'acknowledgement'; or the 12 year time period starts running from the last date you or someone else, e.g. who owned the house jointly with you, made a payment to the lender. The Financial Services Authority rules From 31 October 2004 the Financial Services Authority (FSA) has taken over the regulation of mortgage lending and problems with existing mortgages. The Mortgage: Conduct of Business Rules say that a lender "must deal fairly with any customer who has a mortgage shortfall debt". If the lender decides to take action to recover the shortfall they must make sure you are told about this in writing, within six years of the date of sale of the house. If the lender does not do this, you can complain to the Financial Ombudsman Service. INFORMATION Contact details for The Financial Ombudsman are listed under the 'Useful addresses' section at the end of this fact sheet. Council of Mortgage Lenders policy The Council of Mortgage Lenders (CML) has a policy on the collection of mortgage shortfalls which should be followed by their members as a point of good practice. From 11 February 2000 the CML says anyone whose property was repossessed and sold and who has not been contacted by their lender within six years from the date of sale will not be asked to pay the shortfall. WARNING The lender may argue that if they can prove they tried to contact you that this counts as 'contact', even if you did not receive the letter. Under the CML policy, if your lender contacted you before 11 February 2000 then it appears that they can continue to try to recover the shortfall even if your house was repossessed and sold more than six years ago. If this applies to you then you could try arguing that it is unfair for the lender to keep trying to recover the money if your house was sold over six years ago. Point out that they have limited the recovery period for new cases and have a 'commitment to fair and sympathetic treatment for people for whom possession cannot be avoided'. What should I do? Work out when you last paid or acknowledged the debt and when the house was sold. If this was over 12 years ago you can use sample letter M5 and argue that the debt is unenforceable under the Limitation Act 1980. Check if your mortgage lender is a member of the CML. If they did not contact you before 11 February 2000 and it is six years or more since the house was sold without any contact from your lender, you can argue the CML policy with your lender. Use sample letter M4. Has your lender sent you a letter within six years of the sale confirming that there is a mortgage shortfall and that they intend to recover the debt? If you did not receive this letter you may be able to complain to the Financial Ombudsman Service. Ask your lender for a copy of their complaints policy and follow this first. ADVICE Options for dealing with a mortgage shortfall are complicated. You may need to contact us to discuss which option may apply to you in your situation. Phone us for advice. Phone us for advice 0808 808 4000 JOINTLY OWED DEBTS If your mortgage was in joint names, you need to check what the other borrower has done. If they acknowledge the debt it doesn't affect you but if they have made a payment the limitation period starts running again for both of you from the date the last payment was made. Phone us for advice 0808 808 4000 ASK FOR DETAILS OF THE THE DEBT If you are contacted by your lender or their agent, the first thing to do is to ask for a detailed breakdown of how they have worked out the amount they say you owe. This should allow you to check all the figures and give you a basis for deciding if the correct procedures have been followed. WARNING You should be very careful when you write to your lender as you don't want to acknowledge the debt at this stage. If this happens, you will start time running again and you will not be able to argue that the lender is out of time to pursue you for the debt. If you have not heard from your lender for nearly twelve years, then, phone us for advice before contacting your lender. You should ask for details of: the exact sale price of the house; details of any valuations made on the property; how they have calculated the interest that has been added on up to the time of the sale and since the sale; and any solicitors', estate agents' fees or court costs that have been added on. INFORMATION You can use sample letter M1, at the end of this fact sheet, when writing for a breakdown of the amount claimed. Phone us for advice 0808 808 4000 WHAT IF MY LENDER DOES NOT REPLY? If your lender is being awkward about supplying a breakdown of the mortgage shortfall account to you, then you should write to the lender and request they send you all the information held by them on computer to do with the mortgage account. This request should be made under the Data Protection Acts 1984 and 1998 and refer to the 'right of subject access' under the acts. The lender can charge you up to £10 for supplying the information. They can also write back to you requesting you to be more specific or ask you for more information. You should be sent anything held on computer but not paper or microfiche files (the Data Protection Act 1998 also covers paper and microfiche files but this will only apply to information held from 1998). If the lender does not comply with the request you should complain to the Information Commissioner who will take it up with the lender and can serve an enforcement notice if the information is not sent. INFORMATION Contact details for the Information Commissioner are listed under the 'Useful addresses' section at the end of this fact sheet. Phone us for advice 0808 808 4000 MORTGAGE INDEMNITY INSURANCE You also need to check whether you had a mortgage indemnity guarantee (MIG) on the house. This is an insurance that covers the mortgage lender against a loss. You would usually have paid it out as a lump sum when you first bought the house, or it could have been deducted from your mortgage advance at the time. You need to check that your mortgage lender has made a claim on any insurance available. This could limit the amount you owe to the mortgage lender although the insurance company can ask you to pay back the amount they pay out to the mortgage lender. The insurance company sometimes asks the lender to collect their share for them. From 31 October 2004 your lender must inform you in writing if your mortgage shortfall debt may be pursued by another company. Some people argue that the indemnity policy should cover the borrower for any shortfall as they paid for the insurance in the first place. This is a complicated area of law. Following a case called Woolwich v Brown 1995 the court of appeal has decided that generally mortgage indemnity insurance only covers the lender and not the borrower. We suggest you phone us if you want more advice about this. Phone us for advice 0808 808 4000

Account In Dispute Ref: Dear Sir/Madam Thank you for your letter of xxxxxx, the contents of which have been noted. You have failed to respond to my legal request to supply me a true copy of the original Consumer Credit Agreement for the above account. On xxxxxx I made a formal request for a true signed agreement for the alleged account under consumer credit Act 1974 s77/8. You have failed to comply with my request, and as such the account entered default on xxxxxx. The document that you are obliged to send me is a true copy of the executed agreement that contained all of the prescribed terms, all other required terms and statutory notices and was signed by both your company and myself as defined in section 61(1) of CCA 74 and subsequent Statutory Instruments. If the executed agreement contained any reference to any other document, you are also obliged to send me a copy of that document.In addition a full statement of this account should have been sent to me detailing all debits and credits to the account. Furthermore You are aware that the Consumer Credit Act allows 12 working days for a request for a true copy of a credit agreement to be carried out before your client enters into a default situation. If that request is not satisfied after a further 30 calendar days your client commits a summary criminal offence. These limits have expired. As you are no doubt aware section 77(6) states: If the creditor fails to comply with Subsection (1) (a) He is not entitled , while the default continues, to enforce the agreement. And (b) If the default continues for one month he commits an offence. Therefore this account has become unenforceable at law. As you have Failed to comply with a lawful request for a true, signed copy of the said agreement and other relevant documents mentioned in it, Failed to send a full statement of the account and Failed to provide any of the documentation requested. Consequentially any legal action you pursue will be averred as both UNLAWFUL and VEXATIOUS. Furthermore I shall counterclaim that any such action constitutes unlawful harassment. Please note you may also consider this letter as a statutory notice under section 10 of the Data Protection Act to cease processing any data in relation to this account with immediate effect. This means you must remove all information regarding this account from your own internal records and from my records with any credit reference agencies. Should you refuse to comply, you must within 21 days provide me with a detailed breakdown of your reasoning behind continuing to process my data. It is not sufficient to simply state that you have a ‘legal right’; You must outline your reasoning in this matter and state upon which legislation this reasoning depends. Should you not respond within 14 days I expect that this means you agree to remove all such data. Furthermore you should be aware that a creditor is not permitted to take ANY Action against an account whilst it remains in dispute. The lack of a credit agreement is a very clear dispute and as such the following applies. * You may not demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you. * You may not add further interest or any charges to the account. * You may not pass the account to a third party. * You may not register any information in respect of the account with any credit reference agency. * You may not issue a default notice related to the account I reserve the right to report your actions to any such regulatory authorities as I see fit. You have 14 days from receiving this letter to contact me with your intentions to resolve this matter which is now a formal complaint. I would also like to make you aware of this from the Office Of Fair Trading's web site. Quote - In the absence of a copy of the original agreement someone's liability for a debt can only lead to further query. However in circumstances like this we would view it is as unfair practice under section 25(2) (d) of the Act and relevant to licence fitness if a trader failed to investigate and/or provide details as appropriate when a debt is queried or disputed I would appreciate your due diligence in this matter. I look forward to hearing from you in writing. Yours faithfully

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Subscribing, would like to know how you get on. Good Luck

Have you heard anything at all? I have just read about Howard Cohens on aother thread and it seems they use ruthless tactics so I would do everything by/through the court. I would be interested to know how you have gone on if you wouldnt mind as I am reporting the above to the OFT. Hope everything is ok

Hi, thanks for asking, heard nothing else from First Credit but they have passed it on to Scotcall - so have sent the "This alleged debt is in dispute with First Credit....................you have no legal right to try and collect...........pass back to OC" letter and heard nothing since but I guess I will soon

Can I complete the CCJ forms on line - making an offer etc

Thank you so much Adam, it really means a lot. I think Im going to offer them a small monthly payment just to make things easy I suppose. I always knew that this one was the one that could be a problem and I just hope the judge rules on what I can afford. It just worries me because I have to send the court documents back to Howard Cohen so will they make a decision to accept my offer or will it be up to the judge? I have recieved a DOA from the original creditor to the DCA, would it be possible to still claim my charges back from the OC or would I have to go through the DCA if that makes sense. Thank you so much for taking the trouble to help.