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Posts posted by loz

  1. This topic was closed on 2019-03-08.

    If you have a problem which is similar to the issues raised in this topic, then please start a new thread and you will get help and support there.

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  2. Thanks all for the replies. I may not have explained completely clearly (the H&S situation is a bit of a red herring); what I am objecting to specifically is being referred to by a job title which, although it exists in some of our other locations, does not exist in our tiny site.


    I have again requested that they do not refer to me as manager/supervisor/team leader, all of which were used in the H&S policy and all of which are specific positions in the company above my pay grade. I have pointed out that I am not aware of the job description for such a position (hell, I don't seem to have a formal description for my current role!), and this makes me wary of being seen as responsible (in some eyes) for things that I have not received training/briefing/pay for.


    Pay aside (it would be nice!), if the creation of such a position were being considered there is no guarantee that I would consider applying, or that the company would consider me suitable!

  3. I've been with my employer for over 12 years and during that time have gone from being an engineer to senior engineer, "senior" in this case referring to length of service / experience. Last year, after previously working alone, I gained an office buddy - we both report to the same manager so although he is on a much lower grade than me, I am not his boss.

    At the time he was hired, I pointed out to the company that I didn't seem to have a proper job description aside from my title, and HR promised to provide one. I'm still waiting. Since then there have been a couple of times where I've not been happy at assumptions made about my role. Mainly, the Health & Safety manager circulated a new H&S policy this year which outlines various responsibilities to named individuals - I am named in this document as a manager.

    I pointed this out to the H&S manager, that I am not a manager, but if they were to offer me such a position (2 grades above my current pay), then I might consider it... of course they will be doing no such thing. I understand that someone needs to be responsible for H&S on a local basis, as there is only two of us in this office, but I'm really not happy that other people think it's OK to incorrectly assign job titles, and the assumptions that might follow..

    Today I have been asked to complete "H&S training for managers", and again there is a document attached to the email which lists me as office manager. I am happy to take certain responsibilities at a local level, but unless they are going to promote me I don't want to be referred to in this manner. TBH I'd love the money but I have no aspirations to be a manager, it would be a complete change from my current role and something I have no training or experience for.


    Just wondered if anyone else has been in a similar position..?

  4. I finally got a reply on this from HR! Not quite what I hoped for (which would have been back pay for 8 years), but they have finally caved in and said they will pay my on-call allowance when I am on leave. Backdated to a 3-month gap between holidays as per the guidelines that came out of the tribunals, so I will get an extra £600+ gross next month. Ex gratia of course, they don't accept that they are obliged to do this - though they agree that the on-call payment forms part of my normal remuneration as per Williams/BA. They want me to keep this confidential (at least as far as my colleagues being the implication), and accept the payment as full and final settlement. I trust that if the guidelines are further changed or clarified in the future that I will still be able to revisit this..?


    Better than nowt I guess!


  5. I emailed HR again.. they had told me previously that "there is no legal precedent around this subject but we are aware that this is something that we need to better understand"

    I have continued reading about this subject and noted that around four weeks ago:


    The Employment Tribunal decided that it was possible to re-draft existing domestic legislation to include the requirement for commission to be taken into account. This has been achieved by a judicial re-drafting of the Working Time Regulations 1998 to add a new Regulation 16(3) (e) stating “as if, in the case of the entitlement under Regulation 13, a worker with normal working hours whose remuneration includes commission or similar payment shall be deemed to have remuneration which varies with the amount of work done for the purposes of s.221”. This therefore means that workers whose pay includes commission should have holiday pay calculated based on average pay (including commission)... The main point for employers to take from the above is that it is now certain that there is a legal requirement that they include commission payments in holiday pay calculations.


    It would appear that the payments I receive for being on 24/7 standby fall into the class of "similar payments", as per the original case (against BA) relating to this matter. The whole reasoning behind these cases is that taking holiday should not result in financial disadvantage, which it clearly has over the past 8 years in my case. With the most recent deduction of payments in March 2015, I have now missed a total of 250 days' standby payments in that period.

    Anyone got any further experience of situations like this and Lock vs British Gas?

  6. Just sent this email:

    Dear *employer*,

    As we have had no clarity on this I thought I would state my case. My pay slip today has had £144 gross taken from my overtime claim, representing 9 days’ on call payments for December. This would appear contrary to the EAT ruling that holiday pay should be in line with normal remuneration.

    Historically I have now missed out on 241 days worth of such payments, dating back to June 2007, and I am obviously keen that I should recover as much of the £3856 deducted as possible.

  7. Very interested in the EAT ruling on holiday pay, though not so much the thing about 3 month gaps between holidays. I did however see this quote after the ruling:

    They [employees] would have to try and argue that the entitlement to holiday at the right rate was part of the contract and bring a breach of contract claim. Those claims can go back 6 years

    I have emailed HR today asking for the company's view on the ruling, in relation to my own situation of being on 24/7 standby for over 7 years...



    I just recalled that their own handbook says

    When on annual holiday you will be paid at your basic rate of pay plus your fixed rate shift premiums, if applicable

    So maybe the breach of contract angle would work..?

  8. I came across Neal vs Freightliner (tribunal), which I have not seen mentioned on this forum, and I think it will help me with this. I appreciate that there is an appeal pending by Freightliner, and that the verdict of the tribunal is not binding, but this could net me around £3000 going back to 2007.

    It was held that holiday pay should represent what the worker would have received if they had been at work, and that therefore employers should take an all-inclusive approach when calculating holiday pay.
  9. I made an error, thankfully before I put the question to my manager... this morning while I was looking for something else, I found a revised "Particulars Of Employment" dated 2008 (!) - No idea why I didn't file this properly, but it's signed and all that..


    It is more personalised (general stuff is in the Staff Handbook as mentioned earlier), including my normal working hours which are stated as M-F 9-5:30.

    Also it says

    When on annual holiday you will be paid at your basic rate of pay. Shift premiums will not apply.

    I feel like my theory may have a hole :???:

  10. I usually work 9-5 but this is not specified in my contract, and my basic pay is based on 37.5 hours per week. I make my hours a little flexible depending on what I am dealing with and where I am working. I find myself working overtime (and claiming for it) fairly regularly so it could be said that my hours and pay vary.


    Can't recall when the policy change was implemented but some time last year the company stopped paying for overtime worked during "normal shift days", giving time in lieu instead. Overtime worked on "days off", weekends in my case, is still paid.


    I haven't started the conversation with my manager yet, wanted to get my head round it properly first!

    Thanks again elche :-)

  11. Hi elche,

    It does all seem clear as mud doesn't it... anyway I dug my contract out, which is a company standard one dating from 2004 - it sets out several things which have since changed (though no new contract has been issued) including my salary and line manager.

    Your normal hours of work will be dictated by the shift roster in effect, but will not exceed 162.5 hours per month on average. Each shift allows for a minimum of an hour rest period per day.

    In certain circumstances it may be necessary to adjust or exceed these hours in order to ensure that your duties in accordance with the terms of the employment are properly performed.

    My paid holiday entitlement is 20 days plus 8 statutory holidays.


    We also have a "staff handbook" which is updated occasionally, and although it does not form part of our contract of employment, we must comply with its contents. In here I have found this:

    When on annual holiday you will be paid at your basic rate of pay plus your fixed rate shift premiums, if applicable.

    So my question is, does my "on call allowance" count as a "shift premium"?

  12. Thanks for your reply - I added up the days I missed out on this allowance due to taking holiday and it comes to over £2000 since the start of 2007! Some days are weekends which aren't part of my 20 days per year, however they were consecutive to holidays I did take so IMHO I am entitled to be paid them.

    Forgot to dig out my contract this morning..

  13. For several years I have claimed a small daily "on call" allowance in addition to my salary, reflecting the contracts I cover for my employer and that I am their only employee for about 150 miles. Effectively I am on call 24/7, and while this is generally not onerous and doesn't prevent me doing things like going to the pub (enquiries can on the whole be dealt with over the phone or next day), the fact remains that I am "expected" to be available by both the company and their clients.


    To date, when I have gone on holiday I have not claimed this allowance for those days - I am clearly not available for work so logically can't be on call - and the company have never said a word about this. Reading around recently though, it seems like my holiday pay should reflect my normal pay. The on call payment is marked as such on my payslip, it isn't part of my salary, but I do rely on it - especially as I haven't had a pay rise in 6 years!


    I read on this page: http://www.sherbornesllp.co.uk/2011_06_20.html

    The Advocate General has stated that a week's holiday pay must correspond with the workers normal remuneration. In short, this means that holiday pay must take into account basic wages, and any other consideration whether in cash or in kind which the worker receives. This appears to include bonus's and ex-gracia payments as well as allowances for overtime and shifts.

    Is this correct? Should I be writing to Payroll with a breakdown of this missing pay?


    Thanks as ever for your help,


  14. FWIW I have experienced both sides of this, though I was an Alliance + Leicester customer before being taken over by Santander. They consistently failed to reply to letters I wrote to them, and since I started disputing my account they also became terrible at informing me what was happening with my account. I finally owe them nothing, however there is still the small matter of £1400+ in charges that I may never see again unless GLC can come up with something >:-(

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