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RS200Phil

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Posts posted by RS200Phil

  1. Thank you, Slick. 

    I'm sure we are all equally deflated at my decision.

     

    To cap it all, I am in the throes of being made redundant. 

    If I were to lose my job through lack of time / effort / concentration on my programming, I would forfeit my redundancy pay; my statutory rights and employment record. 

     

    A case such as this can become all-consuming, so that was a major element that played on my mind. 

    There is no binding PG, I am personally totally convinced of that.

    They just referenced what I had posted here as the PG.

     

    I needed someone to act for me, I guess, but I wanted to seek top-line opinion (i.e. here) before I spent any working hours processing it with a solicitor. 

    The rest, as you see, is history.

     

    Hi dx,

    I actually wrote to Shoo and said I would pay in 3 instalments as they proposed - which takes some of the sting out of it (but not  much!). 

     

    Keeping my job and paying this, I will be far better off than if I lose the job!

     

    My email never stated that I agreed with their claim, but I'm sure that in agreeing to pay I am conceding that. 

    They wrote by return saying the first instalment is due on or before 31st December, so technically I committed to pay rather than actually paying, as I said earlier. 

     

    You will appreciate I just want to close the study book at chapter 1 - I will have a lot of spare time and energy in a few months time. 

     

    The way I feel at the moment is that I am prepared to temporarily let things slip, but I don't feel "finished" yet!

     

    Cheers to all and compliments of the season to you.

     

    Phil

     

  2. I just mean a solicitor, who knows what he's doing (compared to me, not you!) and for whom the more time he spends on it, the more income he will expect.

     

    I have spent hours trying to research this and I followed up fully on all of your advice,  which i greatly appreciated.  However, when two solicitors independently said i didn't have a case... i didn't dispute your assertions, i just felt i would face a fight and yet more stress, hopefully establishing that we are right. My 100% confidence dipped and nerve broke. Sorry. 

  3. Thanks for the help, Hammy. 

     

    I tried in vain to find the supporting case study by typing verbatim the statute references.  What I found was unintelligible to me which is why I sought professional help. 

     

    Had that solicitor agreed with my case there is no doubt whatsoever that I would have taken it forward - but she didn't, to her own cost.  I didn't want to keep asking these very helpful guys for more and more of their time and I couldn't expect them to write my letter for me.  That's why I sought to send my letter from a solicitor, to give my claim the gravitas it deserved.

     

    It's very easy to be gung-ho when there isn't someone pointing a gun at your head.  I don't have the confidence or the competence to produce a strong case. 

     

    I knew if I rejected the claim that they would come back heavy-handedly. All I could see was more rubbish nights worrying about it and increasing legal costs. 

     

    I had negotiated almost 50% off the fee, to a point where I felt my legal fees might exceed that amount.

     

    Anyway, I do really appreciate the time and advice of these two souls and I absolutely intend to follow it up at a point when I know Trade UK can't do anything to me.

     

    I don't want to enter into a slanging match, so I'll leave it at that.  Thanks again both.  It's no fun being this side of the gun.

     

  4. Hi both,

    The reason i capitulated is because a relative is a solicitor for a large firm and she thought i would struggle.  That was why i rang the local firm at all. 

     

    The concern was that if I made any fuss at all the reduced payment offer would be immediately withdrawn and presumably further charges added.

     

    It would be little V large when it came to fighting it.

    It was causing me great stress and upset so I just wanted to remove the problem.

    I am still adamant that I did not know I was a guarantor. 

     

    The company is no longer trading and I know that the one employee has no money at all. 

    I believe it is currently the subject of a compulsory winding up order.

     

    I do feel i want to take it further, but i have removed all risk that it will cost me any more now.

    The first payment of 3 is now made.

     

    I am very grateful to you both.

     

    Perhaps i should have recruited one of you if you are qualified, as i do believe you (and i!) are right.

  5. Hi,

     

    I'm really sorry, but I've bottled it.  I spoke to a local solicitor, whom I was going to ask to pen my response, to lend it gravitas.  They said that unfortunately they thought I would lose.  Given that this was an easy opportunity for them to earn out of it, which they declined, I don't feel I can expend any more time, stress or heartache on it.  I'm just going to bite the bullet and pay, despite the morals of the case.

     

    This is a warning to any poor innocent soul who completes the Trade UK application form, as I for one find it totally misleading. 

     

    I am so grateful to you guys for your time and support.  I shall make a contribution when I've had payday Friday :)

     

    Compliments of the season to you all.

  6. Ok thanks, dx.

     

    Until last Friday I was trying to establish what their bottom line was for settlement - whilst not accepting liability.  If it had been £1000 I would (probably!) have settled to save all this hassle and stress.  I'm really not keen to pay for someone else's misdemeanors when the amount is £1800, though.

    They have taken so long to reply at each iteration that the legal timeframe of 30 days has now expired.

    Should I now reply that I am seeking advice - or that I do not agree that I owe the debt?

     

    Thanks

  7. Sorry, dx100, I didn't reply to your question as I wasn't quite sure how!

     

    It doesn't explicitly state that it is a Letter of Claim, but it does seem to fulfil the requirements of such, in accordance with the link provided, so maybe this is what it is.

     

    Either way, I was proposing to respond as follows, after an initial warm introduction:

     

    The outcome of my legal advice is that I did not sign in a personal capacity, but as clearly stated on the form “for and on behalf of” and the business name is given as “xxxxx Ltd”.  This does not constitute a personal guarantee under s4 of the statute of frauds 1677, as referenced by the Elpis Maritime Co. Limited case.

     

    I am attaching the relevant section of the Trade UK form, demonstrating that:

     

    1.      The “Trade Account Card Agreement” is made explicitly in the name of the business;

    2.      The form is explicitly “Signed for and on behalf of” the company and that company is named as xxxxLtd;

    3.      The guarantee in section (f) of the conditions is to guarantee, as a director, the performance of the company.  Records demonstrate that whilst I was a director I fully complied with this guarantee.  The account was not at issue until 3 years after I ceased to be an employee or director of xxxLtd;

    4.      The form states in section (e) that the Experian credit reference agency may be used to verify my identity. The implication of this I took at the time to mean it was absolutely NOT a personal reference of credit worthiness, and thus not a personal guarantee.

     

    I am also attaching a copy from a section of a competitor’s credit application form.  This form is explicit and unambiguous in being a personal guarantee.  I would expect the same from Trade UK.

     

    Now that I am confident of my legal status, I intend to defend my position.  I now consider the proposed action to be not only morally unjustifiable, but legally so.

     

    The enclosures are the two images I attached earlier in this thread.

     

    What do you think?

     

    Thanks ever so much again.

     

    Phil

     

    SolicitorsLetter.pdf

     

    I meant to add that my name is stated on the agreement as being the account contact. 

     

    In the 4 yours since I left - indeed up to now - I have never received any communications from Trade UK. 

     

    Surely they must have tried calling the "Account contact" and been told that I left years ago? 

     

    Is that relevant?

     

    Thanks

  8. Thanks very much both!  I take so long to reply I get another response in the meantime.  Between you all you have given me the confidence to go for it, scary as it is.

     

    I think because of the morals of the case - insofar as they know the supply and default happened 3 years after I left; and they never contacted me (I suspect they tried and were told I had left) - I feel comfortable with this approach.

     

    I'll get it sent over the weekend.

     

    Compliments of the season to all.  So appreciate you kindly taking the time to share your knowledge and experience.

     

    Phil

     

  9. Thanks ever so much, Moss41.  That's really encouraging.

     

    I am tempted to phone their solicitor and "innocently" state that I have been advised the above Elpis case law, asking his opinion.  I imagine he will either refute out of hand or suggest I put it in writing for him to take to his client.  If he refutes I'm tempted to pay the £1800.

     

    Referring to the other topics I listed in my first email, Trade UK seem to play hard-ball.

     

    What do you think?  Should I be more forceful and risk (1) my own legal fees and (2) their original settlement + fees being imposed?

     

    Cheers,

  10. Thank you so much for your time.  You're spot on - I am very panicked, scared and stressed over it, especially under my current circumstances.

     

    I initially replied as a knee-jerk reaction by email, which I headed with "Without prejudice" to try and protect my ignorance.  I was very careful not to commit either way, though, so I'm sure I haven't entered into any contract of settlement . It has to date been very informal - almost friendly. 

     

    The solicitor has emailed their responses, but each time he has, he has invited me to phone to discuss and talks very informally.  At one time he agreed it "seemed unfair" in the conversation, whilst not stating it was wrong!  I also felt, until the latest email, that he was suggesting that there was more room for movement on their part and I that I should telephone to discuss it.

     

    I also explained when I phoned that I wasn't sure of my legal position, which is why I was phoning, so that I couldn't be held to account for anything I put in writing.  I am sure he wouldn't be surprised if I said I didn't want to settle as I intended to refuse.

     

    My own view is very much on the lines of what you're suggesting:

    • I absolutely don't believe this is a personal guarantee.  It is worded as "for and on behalf of" the company, and it asked for my position in the company - not my home address.  They said they would use Experian to verify my identity only, not my credit-worthiness.  They didn't request any personal info other than d.o.b..  I don't think that any Ts and Cs could over-ride this, surely?
    • However, I do feel they have been very "reasonable" in nearly halving their settlement amount and I definitely don't want to jeopardise this unless I'm absolutely 100% certain that the law is on my side.
    • I am very concerned that as soon as I question my liability they will withdraw their offer and add further charges / actions.
    •  

    I'm attaching a section from a similar trade agreement I signed which account, thankfully is ok.  It's so different!

     

    Thanks again.

     

    Phil

     

     

     

    SamplePersonalGuarantee.jpg

     

    Hi Andy,

    Sorry, I missed your question whilst replying to BankFodder.

     

    Yes, I was a director, but I could see it wasn't going to generate the millions I'd been promised, so when I was offered another job at 4x the salary I resigned and left. 

     

    This was only a month after I had signed the agreement with Trade UK, but it wasn't intended to happen as such.

    Thanks

     

  11. Oooh! :)

     

    Is says they "..are instructed to issue court proceedings with a view to obtaining a CCJ...".  However, it says their client "...would prefer to reach an agreement..." rather than do this, and they asked that I phone their office to discuss.

     

    I took this to be an implication that they weren't 100% confident, though of course I didn't want to ignore this.  I phoned and asked if the solicitor thought they would accept £1000 - whilst not accepting responsibility, I wanted to test the waters and buy time, really, whilst I considered whether and how I might pay it.

     

    Thanks again!

     

    Phil

     

  12. Thanks, Andy.

     

    I have received a letter from their solicitor, who has been "instructed to seek recovery of the outstanding balance...".  Apologies if my legal terminology isn't good!  I guess this is a "demand" not a "claim".

     

    I phoned to discuss and bleated about my not having appreciated that this was a personal guarantee.  After a couple of iterations we've reached a final offer for settlement from them, as described above.

     

    Phil.

  13. Thanks very much for your quick reply. 

     

    The amount of their claim is nearly £3,500. 

    The company is still running, I believe, but it is clearly struggling and I've had nothing to do with it for 4 years now.

     

    Really sorry, but I don't have easy access to their Ts and Cs as they were at the time. 

    They have probably changed since 2016. 

    I could ask for them if it would make a difference.

     

    Whilst I haven't accepted responsibility, I have negotiated with them (by begging!) so far to just over half of this amount... and I said I'd give a response by Monday. 

     

    Whilst this is small fry in some terms, I am about to be made redundant so every penny counts; and morally I just find it so wrong.  They did 3 years of profitable trading with the business after I left; they have never contacted me in these 4 years until now; and I have never seen the goods they are asking me to pay for.

     

    My concern is that I signed "For and on behalf of..." the company and I absolutely fulfilled my obligations in that regard for the one month since whilst I was a director.

     

    Much appreciate your time.

  14. Hi,

    I'm looking at threads 411036, 281753 and 374505, which are closed. 

    I have the same situation. 

     

    I signed the attached document in October 2016 and resigned as a director (change of personal circumstances) in November 2016.

     

    In August 2019 the company defaulted on their account and in November 2020 the Trade UK solicitor chased me for the payment. 

    Of course, 3 years after I had left I knew nothing about the running of the account. 

    To this date I had never been contacted personally by Trade UK, despite me being named on this document as the "Account Contact".

     

    I had no idea I had signed a personal guarantee. 

    I didn't provide any personal details other than my name and d.o.b,; and the for states that they "may search Experian" for verifying my identity. 

    It doesn't make clear that this is a personal guarantee.

     

    I don't see the outcome of any of the threads above - although one contributor says they made a settlement (but I believe their contract was worded slightly differently).

     

    Can anyone advise on this?

    Many thanks indeed in anticipation.

     

    ScrewfixAccountApplication.jpg

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