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MOSS 41

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  1. really want to start budgeting what could be costs in case fast track - what is a ball park of what their legal fees might be ? when do these have to be paid? i havesettlement offers subject to costs already made to show judge, their many pre action breaches etc and refusal of ADR-i dont think they will charge anything reasonable, so will have to contest their costs is there an example cost claiming form for myself and fees ive incurred to fill out and lodge with court before hearing i want an idea because the various eventualities in order of best to worst are a) i win and they pay my costs b)they win but i dont have to pay their costs c)they win and i have to pay their costs
  2. its no oral evidence written evidence only , to be submitted 7 days prior hearing by phone as its no oral evidence - thats why i wondered if , the phonecall is to state his decision only, as its only the written evidence on which he will base his decision. i have the written evidence-offer of term is provision of a DOGI, those that provide DOGI's are not defined as a guarantor in loan agreement, no guarantee within agreement. very clear words of construction made by the claimant themselves. they refer in their WS to application to items in the 'PR1', but its not been included and the court holds no copy. in any case i dont need to see it, i know what he was supposed to include (loan offer 5 pages described and loan agreement 11 pages described) , im not including those documents in my evidence to help them out. ie im not providing loan offer and loan agreement for them, they have to prove it exists not me, and include it in their application. i just make reference i.e guarntor definition in loan agreement is................. if they manage to provide in time, judge has loan agreement to refer to. if they forget and they produce no 'PR1' judge has no evidence to base his decision on -no contracts to read does he just throw application out?
  3. Thanks summary judgement (claim b) phone hearing 24th feb -no oral evidence, am i right in thinking , you just sit there and listen to judges decision? wont get asked any questions etc? i have included in my evidence in response -'offer of terms' email from claimant -specifically stated as 'these are the terms on which we make lending available to you' they list payments, interest , terms, and state the provision of for a debenture , and Deed of Guarantee and Indemnity by mr xxx i accepted these terms , by responding to email , but for reasons unknown , the DOGI never got sent for me to complete. the loan agreement they want to say is the guarantee instead (i didnt sign, only company signed), specifically states, you are not defined as guarantor within the loan if you do separate DOGI for me this is a real clear cut case of condition precedents not met, i cannot think of any excuse they can say why the provisions of a loan agreement should be considered instead? when i was of the understanding a guarantee can only be given in the DOGI Im hoping the judge, dismisses application and makes order for provision of a copy of this DOGI, or case is struck out without merit- what are the chances ?or am i being to hopeful? ill attach the terms on which they agreed to loan below the particulars of claim even say , we pursue under terms TO the loan agreement not IN the loan agreement. offer of terms redacted CAG.pdf
  4. to be honest i have enough in what i have done , the only thing new that i would like included the online terms of the conditions which proves , they dont only lend with guarantors, i wonder if i could just take three copies with me and ask permission to show judge? they will never agree to it or print and include in trial bundle, you cant underestimate how difficult they are being
  5. ok , but other side has already kind of made up trial bundle-unapproved by me of course as above. if i do a supplementary to i have to do an application for it or just serve and file with a reason ?
  6. im tempted i have a list of issues in their WS, where he is telling untruths 1)he states first they only lend giving guarantees , its their lending policy- -i asked for copy of the lending policy many months ago-he refused saying it was confidential i printed off their terms and conditions from the internet. the top says applies to all types of loans, and representations are made from borrowers (and guarantors, if there is any) evidence hes lying on WS (can i ask judge permission to introduce in court as readily available on internet and claimants own document) 2)he says copy of a loan agreement was signed by mrs xxx on 7th June and mr xx on 7th june and returned - he includes in his evidence docusign completion showing audit trails meaning he has no excuse for these mistakes a)it wasnt sent to me until 12th june as proved by docusign-i signed 17th as per docusign b)husband didnt sign until 12th june he even states i sign on 17th on particulars of claim husband signed 11th and i signed 17th, there no consistency hes not being honest/accurate whichever way you want to look at it 3)he later in WS states loan completed 20th june -another falsehood (make up your mind! got four dates now) 4) he claims i made a call to arrange drawdown of funds, he included transcript of this call to 'prove how happy i was with the service' a) i returned a call clearly 'saying im returning a call from xxxxx ltd and asked them what they want, they insisted i drawdown funds, or i would lose ability to in future , i said i dont need them yet., they said set it up, and just draw down when ready then. -completely irrelevant , but again evidence in direct contravention to what he claims as truth. 5)he mentions all these 33 calls between parties, but doesnt want to burden court with them- i mean you only need one to prove you discussed a guarantee, i think omission speaks volumes 6)he says act of default is liquidation - i have provided companies house info that we werent in liquidation at all, when they sent letter before action and started court. 7) hes says we only raised a complaint when they requested payment of a guarantee -of course ! 8)hes says its not fair for defendants to assert technical defects in our processes, and that shifts burden of loss unfairly on claimant-and its an injustice
  7. hi, i did not refer to it in my witness st- well i refered to it in a sense of heres a specific disclosure request exhibit xxx and the claimant responded but did not supply a copy within that disclosure dated xxxx (but i havent included it in evidence bundle) but even if i cant use it - i can say orally -the clients recognise there is no personal signature and on disclosure dated xxx they failed to provide said personally signed documents as requested i exhibit xxx, they provided narrative they were searching for it and see if judge asks, what do i refer to ? and point to page in bundle ?
  8. will the judge give this document any weight ?as obviously the bit forwarded underneath wasnt supposed to be seen by me, but i couldnt crop it out without looking like i forged and email etc but it shows they dont recognise loan agreements as having personal signatures they will argue , thats just 'chatter' but if the judge is looking for the truth?
  9. The solicitor is going mental-hes having a hissy fit refusing to add N265 disclosure forms and lists to trial bundle refusing to add specific disclosure requests and response to bundle on my request when he saw that particular one- he said im not allowed to include , as 'irrelevant interco chatter' i said its a response to a specific disclosure request-it is disclosable, i said 'dont worry, ill make a supplementary trail bundle for the above, with our correspondence of your refusal , and you can explain to the judge why you refused to include it." this document is as good as admits, even they don't see the loan agreements as having personal signatures because they are looking for copies that do. the reasons i think he is refusing a)they havent disclosed things they rely on- i want judge to see, items are not disclosed b)i rely on things i gave in specific disclosure, dont want them ommitting it and then saying we werent disclosed that they cant use it.
  10. i am having to agree a trial bundle , (claim A) on one of the emails of correspondence i want them to lnclude in trial bundle -as further correspondence, showing supplementary disclosure there is a whole conversation underneath this printed email, where claimant and his solicitor discuss our case- saying to each other, can you find any copies with personal signatures etc...... i was obviously not meant to see this, but disclosed in my response to requested disclosure underneath as forwarded on. he s asked for copies of what i want disclosed, but before i do a) hes gonna be mad he sent me this in error and wont want it in trial bundle b)Is it an advantage, that i let him know, 'i' know they are aware there are no personal signatures, insist in its disclosure in trail bundle to bring to attention of court? i suppose what im asking before i send him back his copy-which will let him know, that i know is there any advantage of keeping this close to my chest? or say 'here you go ' include this disclosure response you gave me' in the trail bundle (i can always make a supplementary trial bundle with one ready to serve 7 days before if its not included and they purposefully omit)
  11. DOGI-deed of guarantee and indemity, the claim (claim b)which now i have to fight an application for summary judgement , they are relying on terms within a loan document, to enforce a guarantee, this loan agreement is only signed on behalf of the company. 1) i have an offer of terms letter/email sent to me 13 /08/2018 -we will lend in these condition etc : which clearly lists a preconditon of Deed of Guarantee and Indemnity and a debenture being executed. 2)they have not provided me with a copy of any DOGI, i think they forgot to execute , i dont recall seeing one. 3)The loan agreement is not signed in a personal capacity- why would you? you had to provide a seperate DOGI, to give a guarantee- their rules not mine. 4) the loan agreement clearly states under definition of guarantor -"person or persons who enter into this loan agreement for the purposes of providing a guarantee EXCLUDING any third party guarantor that executes a seperate Deed of Guarantee and indemnity" so part of me is just keep application objection very simple with the above attaching the evidence, and save myself £1000 of solicitor fees doing it myself but im trying to anticipate , what they send in response 3 days before hearing (as its no oral evidence), could they just send a letter, saying we didnt agree to that, PG in loan agreement, they agreed to be guarantor end of
  12. What do judges do with bad evidence ? Or quite misleading things said in a statement of truth by the other side ? I can see one copy of an email is not authentic , in the sense it’s obviously been cropped and pasted under another - they use the wrong name too they have cropped out , all addresses , times, who sent to etc - just photocopied the centre text basically - which is not acceptable to me who was it sent to,? what time ? what date ? all cropped out very obviously - do I raise something with the courts to try and get them to provide an original, true copy of what they’ve cropped and photocopied under another heading? Then the other part to this , is that the said ‘email/document’ they go on to declare was attached to the front of an Offer letter document sent by docusign, so when you signed that envelope , you also signed acceptance of this email - and it’s contents 1) it’s not true, they’ve claimed this as true in the witness statement , 2) the docusign , certificate of completion , clearly states the envelope is 5 pages (which matches just the loan offer contract length of pages , so concrete proof , it was not included , and they have said an untruth , but signed this as truth I’ve never dealt with provable untruths before , generally , we all know what issues we face and I’ve never had a claimant , basically tell a provable lie in a witness statement , or provide cropped / doctored evidence - I just didn’t think people did it , but docusign certificate proves it wasn’t included and cropping of said document very poorly done, will a judge see through this , or do I need to raise some issue with this evidence ?
  13. thanks, i've avoided case law, but i can add that in as why i dont recognise it as valid its not the same case tried two different ways, its two seperate cases from same claimant , two different loans to two differnt ltd companies, but from the same claimant , the arent duplicating anything, just following the same path and evidence/defences in two cases. ill add PR1 copy not submitted under that relevant paragraph, when do they lose the right to admit it, when its not supplied 7 days before? or can they still put in at 3 days before ?? Is it enough to stop an application being awarded? i can make it more involved? they havent provided DOGI, its not in their missing PR1 because its not enough pages - pages declared match exactly loan offer pages and loan agreement and described as so , and i havent done one, they cocked up , so it cant possibly exist. loan agreement not signed personally anyways under ELPIS the claimant -man writing the witness statement- he is the one that has signed a statement of truth on the other claim and said these 'offer of terms' emails are a condition precedent for the loan to come into existence -his words signed as truth- can i exhibit his witness st to the other case, or is it inadmissable all information i have from barrister advice i previously got a report on is there's no valid guarantee , so i can give all the case law stuff he gave why its not
  14. right attached for SJ particulars N244 my response/objection draft let me know what you think CAG SJ bundle.pdf
  15. Yes, i know it is not relevant to SJ, just wondered your thoughts, on it i dont feel that its an acceptable way to submit an email, because they cropped out all the evidence sections, times, dates, addresses. and my agent cant accept on our behalf, when the claimant offers terms, they send it directly to us, in all previous dealings
  16. we exchanged witness statements , on first claim today, theres is no suprises, its full of inconsistencies, quite a few things are absolute golden nuggets for me in relation to my defence. They dont even state where they recognise a personal guarantee, on this document signed on behalf of a limited company. they have a weird email they have submitted in isolation , to try and prove i knew about a personal guarantee or agreed to one prior to funding (bear in mind i have submitted , numerous properly presented emails in evidence, i asked for no guarantee and debentures in the application etc) i have to show you an email they appear to have fudged together for you to look at, i,ll redact- it is ridiculous , i have all emails and this doesnt exist or has been sent to me. and its not proof of acceptance from us , they have cropped out , who it was sent to , at what time , to what address etc its definitely suspicious. you would expect it to be forwarded or cc'd in etc, if we were parties to this email.dodgy email CAG.pdf this is not a offer email sent to us, it doesn't prove it, its an internal conversation, when i have included emails i have done the whole conversation, headers, footers, dates, times addresses, times opened etc let me know what you think, its not acceptable, 1) i have all original actual emails between me and funding options so i can see how it appears to have been altered my husband is not called trevor and and has never been known or referenced as that name. my husband was not party to the application at all, and all emails, only addressed to me every single time.
  17. great will do , i have typed something, my main problem will be reducing it to be concise so if they dont provide the evidence of a contract before the hearing, then what?
  18. yes - court doesnt have any copies electronically or on paper, emailed me yesterday
  19. Yes particulars identical hearing date for application 24 /2/2021 - need to submit 7 days before witness st yes n244 uploaded earlier in the thread
  20. is response to CPR rules you sent me - my observations are 1)they havent stated under what law/legislation they make a claim, they have mentioned document they rely on but didnt serve it with application as above 2)they didnt serve application or evidence on me ever! court knows this 3)this is a telephone hearing where no oral evidence is to be given , do we do skeleton arguments or court bundle , when do we give to court - order is to only submit evidence in response 7 days before hearing 4) there are /is a document which gives complete defence to the claim, disclosable at trial , so they shouldnt have sought summary judgement a)i have an email from them , a deed of guarantee and indemnity (DOGI) was required for guarantee, pre condition to lending b)i have a docusign email sending request to sign this DOGI document (not attached it was a docusign login) , c)they dont have a copy of it and havent provided under SAR or specific request. d) anyone who does a DOGI, is not defined as a 'Guarantor' in the agreement, which is not signed in a personal capacity anyway, e)so in the application they rely on loan agreement having a self contained gurantor section, and the fact my name is next to word guarantor (but not signed personally, no statute of frauds anyways) their definition of a guarantor-"person named in offer letter who enters into this loan agreement to provide a personal guarantee and indemnity. this definition excludes any third party guarantor who enters into a seperate DOGI"
  21. thanks for that very helpful, ill make some points on it in a minute just wanted to say they never served me application against CPR, i had to obtain off court a copy. They refer in wtiness st - marked as what they rely to support application a paginated bundle PR1 which apparently accompanies the statement, i can see from the references and amount of pages it should be the loan offer and loan agreement, as you would expect. so i asked court can i have copy of PR1 so i can check, they just got back and said claimant has never either in electronic database or in paper, served a bundle PR1 with the application, there said it was claimants job to serve everyone and me- so ask them i was about to and i had a thought, they havent submitted any evidence in support of their application why remind them ! in theory judge will get to hearing and go where is your evidence of this agreement? and for the record they are very sloppy and do make major mistakes in their paperwork, so this isnt unusual
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