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dave9946

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  1. Well they have had the tablet back, just awaiting the cheque or any response now. Yes, already been confirmed costs for time incurred can't be charged in any pre legal action matter. Maybe the threat and intention to push for such charges under legal action if that happened if they never acted may have helped push their directors office decision to offer the refund in the first place?. Either that or exercising my rights under the SOGA. Not that it matters as such I guess. But if they had refused the refund it would have been an interesting situation. As yes, I would have pushed legal action etc, and somebody already pointed out I think, that since Argos, well their repair agents, were unable to determine the cause or likely cause of the fault or able to attribute any blame on the user and as there is no other sign of damage then Argos would be legally liable under the SOGA anyway. More so when I could have obtained many such cases of self cracking screen situations being caused by various reasons, all being down to manufacturer fault or poor (if possibly isolated cases) build quality.
  2. Sent a message off to Watchdog but unsure on if they will bother to get in touch or the story of much interest (unless if related to other such similar cases\stories) after speaking to Citizens Advice. As I tried to contact Trading Standards only to find out and be told that consumers (Joe public) now have to go via bloody Citizens Advice!. Having got to deal with and speak to Citizens Advice I explain the situation to them, what had happened etc. Only its felt there would be little point in passing the matter onto Trading Standards due to the fact that Argos have now offered a full refund of the tablets cost and so Trading Standards will be unlikely to want to act further!. Does the fact that a breach of the SOGA still happened and statutory rights denied still not count for anything then and can go unpunished?. Seemingly not if a company offers a refund before a person gets to contact Trading Standards even if without the threat of doing so such a company would clearly never have offered a refund at all!. It seems there is also no direct legal entitlement to claim compensation or for costs incurred or for time spent dealing with Argos over the tablet refund. As for as long as they at least, at the very minimum offer to refund the original cost in full that's all any legal action under the SOGA would be certain to grant anyway!. Its suggested to just take the offered refund for the tablet and maybe raise the issue of how Argos have dealt with the situation and the lies off my local manager as a separate complaint with Argos if I feel that strongly about the issue. So not a lot I can do by the looks of it as whilst the SOGA and statutory rights were breached and denied, that clearly Argos would otherwise have done nothing about, the very threat of Trading Standards and legal action got Argos to offer the refund before the matter could get passed on to Trading Standards.
  3. Think I will contact Watchdog, as how many other people could this be happening to?. Consumers getting the blame for something and expected to take the hit under Argos policy and store management lying to other departments to cover their own backs etc. Yet fully protected legally and entitled to a replacement or full refund under the SOGA!. I'd not mind, except the directors office would never admit that store level managers acted wrong in any way or requested a copy of the repairs report to verify the lies my own store manager made up to justify the refund refusal. And even now, the next morning, that's starting to highly annoy that they seem willing to ignore the behaviour of managers that's caused me to spend the time dealing with this to the point where I'm wandering it its better to push the directors office before sending the tablet back. Or send the tablet back for the refund and then push and challenge them further?. Anyone got the right contact email for Watchdog?, as will try and contact them later.
  4. The directors office person gave me the impression today that she felt the both store managers acted correctly because the repairs report said the part is not covered under the manufactures warranty and so felt there decision was correct on that front simply because of what the repairs report said and they were simply following that. However, with the first (duty) manager, I cited & repeated the refund request is being made under the SOGA and not the manufacturers warranty and repeated several times that if they were in any doubt over a lawful claim under the SOGA to consult with their area manager of head office, for which the first manager refused to do. Pretty much the same with the second manager. Except with the second manager he seemed quite happy to confirm he is refusing to refund under the SOGA and refusing, despite several requests to consult with his area manager or head office, to also consult with a superior. The second manager as said when questioned by customer services even went as far as lying about what the report said for his decision of why he refused the refund. So yes, I'd guess or say that Argos do feel their own policy does count for more and does overrule the SOGA. Otherwise the directors office may well have admitted both managers acted wrongly that to back up their actions!. Well the directors office said they won't pay for such time spent dealing with these issues and don't pay for such claims. And stands by the opinion that both managers acted within policy so won't accept its a situation that should never have had to have had the time spent dealing with it that I did spend dealing with it. What was the alternative?, for my brother to write of a £200 tablet he was being refused an entitled refund for?. However, if I wish to perdue a claim for costs for time spent, if the directors office is refusing this charge, which at £50 per day for 2 full days in total seems very reasonable to me, I suppose I could go above her head to the parent companies head office and charge them instead fulling explaining the situation to them?. And if I do that, make it very clear unless they have any legal justification for refusing the charge than simply refusing it citing Argos policy was followed and won't refund because of that then I will be fully intending to and will follow through such a claim for £100 via the small claims court. But yes, if such action was taken there is a chance I could claim more per day for time spent dealing with this than what I'm currently claiming for. Will probably just get the tablet sent back in the first instance and then deal with them over the other issue.
  5. An update on this: I had someone from the directors office on the phone a short while ago. We discussed the situation and issues at some length and what had happened etc. They said unfortunately they can't overrule either store managers decision on a store return level as they are not allowed to do so. So I pointed out, what, not even when they acted unlawfully in ignoring the Sales Of Goods Act and despite several requests to each manager to check and verify with area management and or head office over the legal rights under the SOGA they simply refused to do so and listen about. No the directors office person tells me, as the stores managers acted within the Argos policy in dealing with these things and such decisions are at store managers discretion as such the directors office can't overrule that if they acted within policy. What, not even when my local branch manager blatantly lied to their own customer services department on Twitter over what the repairs report said (well clearly didn't say) as the reason for refusing that refund?. Directors department person says they can't comment on that as they have not seen the report for themselves yet. So do you not accept the respective managers acted unlawfully and outside of Argos policy in refusing repeated requests to refund under the SOGA and repeated requests to check with area management a lawful refund under the SOGA and that blatant lies by a store manager over what a repairs report says to justify a refusal to refund is not unlawful or outside of Argos policy. Well as long as they acted within the Argos policy then their is not much they can do and won't admit, well refuse to admit liability for the time spent dealing with this that I or anyone should never have had to had the first, or even second manager had acted correctly and lawfully in the first pace. Basically the directors office won't accept, or admit that management acted wrongly with how they dealt with the situation. And on that front they are sticking by their managers decision and actions. Regarding the charge for my time dealing with this issue to date on my brothers behalf and under his full authorisation, which is now about 2 full days which I have formally billed them for in my initial email. The directors office said they don't refund for things like that as nobody asked me to spend such time dealing with this issue for my brother. Well yes they did I tell them, my brother did as he was unhappy with how he was dealt with by Argos and after a discussion with myself asked me to help him out over the issue. But we dont refund for costs for time spent dealing with refund issues they say as how can you put a price on something like that?. And I inform them in travelling from my home in Merseyside into North Wales on public transport, looking into the issue and similar screen cracking issues and gaining printouts as evidence and testimony, visiting my brothers own store myself to deal with the issue to get a response for myself took a full day in itself at some cost just for public transport. Then dealing with my own local store, gaining further information, dealing with customer services, finding out my store manager blatantly lied over what the repairs report says, compiling a long and detailed email and time spent dealing with the CEO & then directors office has took pretty much a second full day. That's pretty much 2 full days spent dealing with a situation that legally I or my brother should never have had to had the first store manager acted in the correct lawful way in the first place. Upshot is, they claim its not the directors office policy to pay out for claims for time and costs occurred in dealing with these matters to chase up a refund!. However, the directors office has made an offer. That if I send the tablet directly to the person dealing with me at the directors office, as for as long as the screen damage is as claimed, just a crack and not smashed to smithereens then they, the directors office upon inspecting the tablet, will refund the full cost of the tablet and any cost in sending the tablet to them. They just won't pay anything for the time and cost I've spent dealing with the issue to get this far. And I have an address and ref number to sent it to the directors office. A bitter sweet victory as I seem to have secured the refund for my brother which was my main goal. But the matter they won't accept the store managers acted wrongly, that things should never have gone this far, the SOGA and legal rights that went ignored, that my own store manager blatantly lied and made false claims on what the repairs report said to his own company to justify a refund refusal and feel due to any of that no additional compensation for any time spent chasing up this issue will be offered has left a bitter taste in my mouth. Any ideas?, my first thought is to simply get the tablet back to Argos to get the refund for my brother. But to then see if I have any legal claim for compensation, chase the issue of blatant lies my own store manager made and to claim for the time I spent looking into and dealing with this issue via the small claims court if and only if their is a realistic possibility of winning such a claim against Argos?.
  6. I sent an updated email to the CEO department this afternoon detailing exactly what the store manager claimed to his own Argos Helpers people on twitter after they called him in store, as I had a reply from an actual person from my original email to the CEO so thought I'd update and report the actual manager. Well I say CEO department, the person who has contacted me and looking into the case is seemingly from the "Directors Department"!. I've even gave them the repairs report job number so they can try and source a copy themselves or get it faxed to them etc. Banged to rights over the manager lies soon as they get a copy. Or if need be I can scan and send them a copy myself. To be honest, its all turning into a bit of a bloody joke now, like a Monty Python sketch with the managers I've dealt with, how they have responded and what they have claimed and said etc.
  7. Having a little "fun" (not) on the Argos helpers Twitter account (never even used Twitter before yesterday) over this. They claim to have contacted my own local store manager today over the issue, the same store manager who has claimed to me no tablet of TV screen is covered against fault as standard under manufacturers warranty. And the same manager who refused to contact area manager of head office over the issue. talking to Argos on Twitter resulted in a call to my local store. The store manager apparently recalls my visit and claims to Argos helpers (customer services) the repairs report states the crack has been caused by some form of impact of heavy object being placed on the tablet!. There is no such claim or assumption in the report at all. In fact there is nothing in the repairs report to indicate how the crack could have happened at all. So a second major untruth the manager has made that can be fully proven. This is now making me increasingly "frustrated" to say the least!.
  8. My point of contacting the manufacturer themselves is not to deal with them directly over the fault as Argos would clearly prefer. But more to verify and gain the information that would discredit what Argos has said about there is no manufacturers warranty on the Lenovo tablets screen against faults developing as standard which is why they are claiming they can't do anything by the looks of the repairs agents report. They have already said they can't source the part (unless results on google\ebay etc are fake parts) and even if they could the part would cost them near as much as the tablets likely to be worth anyway its claimed. So either Argos are stating incorrect info about not being able to source the part and repair due to the cost, or they are stating incorrect info about there being no manufacturer cover against such parts developing faults because the liability is on them and more trying to pass the blame to save them undertaking that obligation even if at high cost. Sure, we know by now its clearly a SOGA matter and issue and nothing to do with any manufactures situation between Argos and Lenovo at all. And 2 Argos managers have stating incorrect info and gave the same line about that. And that I have wasted, well spent considerable time dealing with an issue I or my brother should never have had to and Argos being fully aware of that on a legal front and yet still continue to stat incorrect info and hide behind their own policy and using a no cover claim for that. I just want to show Argos we won't take this lying down and will rip their response and defence apart both legally and in their justification of there being no cover against faults developing and then report the entire situation to Trading Standards.
  9. I've even posted about the issues with the tablet on the official Lenovo support board yesterday and asked for a response to the issues in reply to another persons post\thread who seems to have had the same problem and posted about it about a week ago. To date, neither the original poster or myself have received any official response from Lenovo or even there board moderators!. I've even asked Lenovo for clarification and confirmation on if the screens & digitizers are covered against fault as standard or not. No answer on that either at the moment. I know I don't have to as its a SOGA issue, but it may well help to try and clarify some issues in case Argos stick there heels in the ground and I have to down down the Trading Standards and or legal action route and so such info might prove useful for that if needed.
  10. Yeah, these CEO contacts and departments tend to be just a better and more qualified\trained grade of customer service teams with more authority from past experience, even if the CEO might often look at a selection for themselves. But yeah, thanks, sure quicker dealing by email than by letter in all probability
  11. Email compiled and sent to the CEO earlier today. I probably went into far more detail than I needed to but better to get everything across than miss anything out I guess. And hopefully the CEO (or whoever deals with the email) will be left in no doubt I will both carry out the intention to go to Trading Standards and follow up with any legal action on my brothers behalf if I have to. I have also complained about the behaviour of the 2 separate managers (even if the first was only a duty manager), how disgusted I was by there both refusal to consult with a superior despite my repeated requests they do so with the refund claim under the SOGA and their refusal to even recognise the relevance of the SOGA and act upon it as they are legally obliged to do so and must be aware they are obliged to and should have checked with there superiors upon my repeated requests they do so. And as well as behaving in a rather patronising way. I also noted that in the repair agents report they stated the condition of the tablet was "cracked screen, scratches on screen, marks on screen and back". This is not true, as apart from the crack on the screen there is not even the slightest trace of any scratch or mark on the screen, back or any part of the tablet in the slightest. In fact if it was not for the crack on the screen the cosmetic condition of the tablet could almost certainly be described as mint condition, if only due to the fact for the best part it was always kept in an official Lenovo case. In fact, my brother pointed out to me prior to sending out the email that the tablet came back with a bigger crack than it was sent off with. This was all pointed out to the Argos CEO email along with a willingness to take the tablet to any store in the area for any manager to inspect and verify the cosmetic condition themselves to prove that their repair agents have been economical in how they have described the cosmetic condition outside of the screen crack. I have also formally charged Argos £75 to date for the day and a half I have currently spent to date working on and dealing with this issue on behalf of my brother that I or anyone should never have had to spend dealing with. And that I will fully justify and claim this charge through the small claims court if and when its decided the store acted unlawfully with how they have dealt with the situation if they don't pay that charge as well as offer a full refund for the faulty tablet.
  12. Thanks, that's now 2 managers who have pretty much refused to discuss and verify the situation with their area manager and or head office and totally ignoring the legal obligation under the SOGA. Are Argos now ordering all managers to totally ignore the SOGA and simply quote and hide behind there own personal policy?. In today's case the manager, upon suggesting he double checks to even make a quick call to colleague relations at their head office, assuming Argos have a colleague relation department even refused to do that.
  13. I've been to my own Argos branch this morning before heading out for the day in the hope they would be more reasonable & see sense, have a better understanding of the SOGA and to more try a second and last time to resolve the situation on a store level before and in the hope of not needing to go higher. I even got an actual store manager this time instead of just a duty manager I dealt with in my brothers local store which was good I guess. He pretty much said the same thing as the other store said and is trying to stick to that. I tried to reason with him and the claim that the screens and digitizers are covered under the Sales Of Goods Act outside of any claim such parts are not covered as standard by a manufacturers warranty but he just didn't seem to want to know or listen much. The manager even went as far as to try and blame my brother for the situation for not taking out there accidental cover for the screen. To which I pointed out he didn't and doesn't have to and the damage is not accidental or user caused and there is no signs what so ever that it was caused by accidental user miss use that you would certainly be able to and expect to see if it was, such as dropped which would cause casing damage, dents, scrapes, scratches and lcd screen damage too. The manager simply said no screens under the manufacturers warranty are covered as standard with them!. What, no tablet or any TV Argos sell has their screens covered as standard I ask the manager?, no he informs me. Well are Argos not guilty of miss selling and miss advertising if they don't mention and advertise in their catalogue, online and in the product details that there is no cover on the screens what so ever on such items I ask?. Well no he says as that's why they offer and sell extra additional accidental cover at the point of sale. To which I repeat the damage is not accidental and pretty much verified by there repair people and I am claiming for a refund (as the part cant be sourced anyway) under the SOGA which has nothing to do with a claim such parts are not covered by the manufacturer. The manager tells me all he can do is deal with the situation as the company policy tells them to deal with the situation. I ask the manager so are you refusing to acknowledge the Sales Of Goods Act and that the SOGA applies in addition to and above any manufacturer claims over parts. He just repeats that he can only deal with the situation as the company tells them to. I then ask him if he is willing to contact his head office or area manager to get them to verify the SOGA does not apply. He said no, he doesn't need to as the company policy tells him how to deal with the situation with customers. I then ask the manager several times if he is therefore refusing to verify the situation with either his head office or area manager to which he says yes. So head office next as I have an email for the Argos CEO and will fully explain the situation and expectation of them and will mention that Trading Standards will be next with the option of the small claims court. Sure, I know it will be a staff member responding than the actual CEO, but they will be responding on the CEO's behalf all the same and certainly a better "educated & trained" grade of staff. And another £25 bill for a half day spent dealing with this issue on my brothers behalf (that I will also fully mention in the email to the CEO) that I should never have had to added to the £50 bill for the more full day I spent dealing with the issue on Tuesday and once the situation is resolved I full intend to bill and collect these additional charges against Argos via the small claims court if I have to.
  14. To clarify, when the cracked screen appeared the tablet was less than 3 months old, it was bought late October 2014, developed the fault late January 2015. When I spoke to the duty manager (as the store manager was not in) they pretty much claimed the issue is that the claim either by there repair agenets or Lenovo that such parts are not covered by the manufacturers warranty means Argos are not responsible. This is despite the brief report not detailing or being able to detail how the fault, cracked screen appeared. The duty manager refused to accept that, the matter of claimed non covered under manufacturer warranty parts does not mean that the SOGA still applies over that as that offers consumer protection outside of manufacturer claims etc. But that as a company Argos won't do anything for as long as such parts are not manufacturer covered. Are people really expected to be told and accept that if they go out any buy a new TV, the main part, the panel is not covered by a manufacturers warranty?, this is how I see things. I noted the duty managers name and have a brief report of that on my tablet stored for use. It did frustrate me that the duty manager claimed not to have access to there head office to verify a claimed parts not covered claim trumps a SOGA act and must be fit for purpose claim, which many know is not the case!. I even went as far as to inform the duty manager if that was their final decision to which she nodded. To which I informed them that for as long as a company and company representative they continue to hold onto that line (won't refund or replace as parts are not manufacturer covered and won't verify with her head office) I will personally, as my brothers appointed representative to deal with Argos on his behalf, bill Argos the sum of £50 for each day I spend working on the issue and dealing with Argos on my brothers behalf and will use the duty managers response, her name and store as the basis and start of this charge and will fully intend to enforce such a charge via the small claims court. Think that rattled her a little, but if legally viable will intend to follow through with it. Now, I have taken possession of my brothers tablet in the short term to be better placed able to deal with this on his behalf. And am wandering if I could appeal to the better or more rational nature of my own local store and their manager or if their is contact details for Argos head office anyone knows of?.
  15. I'm reposting this here from another board in the hope someone can help clarify the legal situation and rights. My brother bought a Lenovo Yoga 10" tablet from Argos back in late October 2014. Only by no fault of his own after using it for a few hours one night just over 2 weeks ago and letting it rest\cool overnight he awoke to find the screen had a crack in it. Not the lcd screen, just the top digitizer part. He has always kept it in an official Lenovo case and did not (and I have no reason to dis-believe him) drop it at any point and he has no reason to lie about this. He has tried to take it back to Argos himself, the start of Jan, again claiming it was not dropped but Argos seemed to insist that it has to get sent to be evaluated by there agents that deal with these things than to offer a replacement or refund. When it came back, totally unrepaired or worked on the size of the crack had grown and is now from one end of the screen to the other. The response from the Argos store repairs agents states the item had not been dropped in any way but had developed a slight crack down the screen. Their findings say the unit has a damaged digitizer and that its not covered by the manufacturers warranty. They claim they are unable to source parts and say in there experience the cost of the repair would be about equal to that of the unit anyway. The agents then suggest my brother contact Lenovo directly to deal with what they see as a chargeble repair due to a claim the screen and digitizers are not manufacturer warranty covered. Now, some research I have done shows\indicates these screen self crack issues in Lenovo products is becoming quite common, well more reported yet Lenovo are seemingly refusing to accept its a manufacturing\quality issue or really directly responding to or commenting on such reports on there own support board. And indicators suggest it could be down to heat\temp\thermal hot spot issues or a flexability of the tablets casing with the possibility that the adhesive used to fix the digitizer down could be causing weak\stress points. I've now took this matter up on behalf of my brother as I'm somewhat more assertive and determined than he is dealing with these things. So I took the item back to Argos with there repair agents report myself to see what the stores official line was and is for myself. And to be honest it was like knocking my head against a brick wall with the standardised "if the manufacturer says a certain part is not covered then its not covered" & "take the matter up with the manufacturer if your not happy". The first staff member when explaining the situation to her, showing her the tablet and showing her the repair agents report caused her to have to go and speak to her manager and even call Lenovo over the claim the screens and digitizers on such items are not covered under Sales Of Goods Act in the UK etc due to Lenovo claiming the screens and digitizers are not covered by the manufacturers warranty. They came back after less than 10 minutes (funny how they got hold of someone high up in Lenovo to get that clarification so quickly eh?) and said for as long as Lenovo are standing by claims that tablet screens and digitizers are not covered under the manufacturers warranty then Argos on a store level can't do anything about the issue and suggest my brother take it up with Lenovo himself if he's not happy. So not happy I ask to speak to the store manager. The store manager is sticking to the same line as the staff member and Lenovo that they got hold of so quickly. The manager even went as far as to say "in my opinion the crack looks to be accidental user damage", yet would not accept our reasoning that if (which it had not) beed dropped there would almost certainly be signs of damage on the casing such as scrapes, dents or scratches as well as it being more likely the LCD screen would also have cracked and become damaged. The manager also refused to accept or even willing to look into my own findings and research that screen cracks do and can be caused by either poor build quality or heat issues with the screen etc. In fact, in handling the tablet myself it does feel to have a slight flex in it which I personally feel is unacceptable for a £200 tablet to feel somewhat flimsy and what I feel of poor build quality. The manager also refused to accept their repair agents report that stated the item had not been dropped as meaning they (the repair agents) found the item had not been dropped, but more my brothers original claim when it was sent off that it had not been dropped or misused or mistreated etc. But as I pointed out, there was also no signs of damage or indication that it had been dropped, user caused accidental damage or any such findings by their repair agents either. As if their repair agents had found or thought that to be the case then clearly they would have stated so than claimed such parts are not warranty covered. And if the findings could not determine any user end blame then that only leaves a manufacturing issue. And that their refusal to repair the item is based on both a claim that such parts are not covered under the manufacturers warranty and that they could not source the part anyway. Yet funny how they tried to source a part after determining that the same part is not covered I feel!. The store manager also did not want to clarify or even bother to check with their head office (claiming they don't have a number for their head office) on if the Sales Of Goods Act and having to be fit for purpose etc applies over a manufacturers claims certain parts are not covered. So as it is now, I'm a little unsure of where to go as clearly in my mind the store manager should have discussed the matter with a superior at their head office over claims certain parts are not covered by a manufacturers warranty and how the Sales Of Goods Act applies?.
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