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Posts posted by skbuncks

  1. You seem to be completely missing the point.

    I accept that Orange charge for the service of sending a delivery report. I accept that it is indeed in Orange's T&Cs. That is not the issue and is completely beside the point.

    The issue is that the T&Cs which bmp present as being the T&Cs of Orange do not contain this tariff. I will repeat that, the T&Cs which bmp present to new customers, who are then requested to read said terms WITH THE IMPLICIT EXPECTATION THAT THESE TERMS ARE CORRECT do not contain this tariff.

    It is therefore, by definition, a hidden charge and BMP are therefore mis-representing the T&Cs of Orange.

    I admit that I am struggling to understand why you cannot understand this.




    ETA: I refer you again to ofcoms guidlines on mis-selling

    the omission of relevant or the provision of false and/or misleading information

    Clearly, presenting erroneous T&Cs to new customers which fail to detail a charge said customers will be levied is the omission of relevant information. If it is not then why not and how big an omission would it have to be to count?

  2. Don''t see how as each are providing seperate elements and would not be responsible for the entire transaction. If you buy a phone from a retailer, the terms of purchase would be those of the retailer, not the network. The SIM card, belongs to the network and your use of it would be based on their T&C's.


    There would be ample opportunity to claim misrepresentation if the retailer was pretending to be the network, but since service is only given (and paid to the network) then their terms are applicable.


    Except that on check out you are presented with what are claimed to be Orange's T&Cs which you are requested to read prior to purchase. These are the terms that are agreed to.

    Thus BMP have a clear responsibity to accurately portray the terms of Orange. If they fail to do so then they should be able to be held accountable


    Ofcom would seem to agree with me:

    Q1. What is mis-selling?


    Mis-selling covers a range of sales and marketing activities including:


    • the omission of relevant or the provision of false and/or misleading information (for example about tariffs, savings or promising offers which do not materialise);

    Q5. How can I dispute the contract that has been mis-sold to me under Ofcom’s new proposals?

    If the contract is sold through an independent retailer, the customer should first contact the retailer in question. If the customer and the retailer cannot resolve the dispute, the customer should contact their mobile service provider and ask the mobile service provider to look into the dispute. If no solution can be found, the customer can contact Ofcom. Based on complaints information, Ofcom may decide to investigate a mobile service provider’s compliance with the General Condition.

    Q6. Who can I escalate the issue to if I cannot resolve it with an independent retailer or mobile service provider directly? Will they be able to take the issue on board on my behalf?

    Under the new rules if a customer cannot resolve with the independent retailer, the customer should contact its mobile service provider. If the mobile service provider cannot find a solution with its independent retailer, the customer can contact Ofcom. Ofcom can, based on complaints information and other evidence, decide to investigate a mobile service provider’s compliance with the General Condition.

    Mobile Mis-selling - FAQ | Ofcom



  3. Did your GF get her call back? If she did, what's the latest here?


    In the event the Orange are maintaining their position your alternative is to continue with BMP and highlight to them their error and make it clear that one of the main reasons for accepting their deal was the apparent free delivery messages as the T&C's they displayed made no mention of Orange's actual charge for this service.


    If this fails then ask them to escalate the matter to a manager and don't get fobbed off.


    To update the situ:

    Orange are maintaining their postitive and will not waive the charges.


    BMP have also responded via email with a typically bs reply that totally misses the point:


    We spoke on the 27th May in relation to your query about the delivery report charge and I referred this to a Manager.


    I have now received a response to advise you will need to discuss this with the network as they are responsible for this charge.


    If you have any further queries please feel free to contact us at [email protected].


    Damn idiots.

    So what now?



  4. slight miss calc


    600 x 1p is in fact £6.00p not £60.00p if that have stated it 1p per txt is correct


    making the bill if you use the full 600 txt's £46.00p


    hope this helps


    Sorry yes, my fingers must have been flapping on the number pad, it amounts to around £6/mnth which over 18 months is £108.

    The 1p per delivery msg on first glance seems like a piddling amount but it soon adds up. Its doubly annoying because my gf moved over from vodafone who don't charge anything for the same service.

    I am aware peeps might think we're digging our heels in over nothing but this is really ******** us off. Finances being what they are it was imperative that the monthly bill was kept at £40 so for it to leap to £46+ (and note that it could be more because 600 is the minimum number of txts sent, it could easily be 1000 or more in any given month)..anyway rambling again...



  5. Sod it, here the Orange T&Cs that bmp present as of 02:43 28/05/2010.

    If your using firefox do a ctrl F to search on delivery/text etc to save yourself reading through the whole lot. Uh, an mods feel free to remove the lot if I have violated anything.


    Orange Contract Terms and Conditions

    These words have the following meanings:


    'Accessories' - Products approved by Orange which you use in conjunction with your Device. They include (without limitation) batteries, chargers, car kits, headsets and carry cases.

    'Account' - our records of your payments and outstanding Charges, plus your personal details.

    'Age Restricted Services' - any Services which are specified for use only by customers over a specific age

    'Bar'- a block placed by us on some or all of the Services you normally use (except for calls to emergency services). It may include us restricting the Service whereby you will automatically be re-directed into Orange when you attempt to make an outgoing call from your Device

    'Billing Date' - the day on which your billing statement will be issued after you have been connected.

    'Charges' - all charges for Services, as published in our periodically updated Price Guide. These include any reasonable administration charges.

    'Connection' - the process of giving you access to a Service. "Disconnection" and "Re-connection" have a corresponding meaning.

    'Content information, communications, images and sounds' - software or any other material contained on or available through the Services.

    'Contract' - these terms and conditions which are binding on both you and Orange for each Device you connect to the Orange Network.

    'Customer Communication'- information made available to you by Orange which provides information on Orange Services. It may be made available on your Device or provided electronically or distributed with new Devices or in mailings to some or all Orange Customers.

    'Deposit'refundable amount that Orange may ask you to pay before we Connect or Re-connect you to the Network or before providing any Service.

    'Device' a mobile telephone, device or data card (excluding Accessories) which is approved by Orange for connection to its Network.

    'Line One and Line Two' Line One is the primary means by which you have access to the Services. Line Two is a second line on the same phone with its own phone number.

    'Minimum Term' the minimum period for the supply of Services as specified in your Service Plan commencing on the date of Registration, where no period is specified in the Service Plan a minimum period of 12 months from the date of Registration will apply.

    'Network' the electronic communications system by which Orange makes Services available in the United Kingdom.

    'Orange Additional Services' optional Services (including but not limited to Roaming, International Calling, Premium Rate Services, and Content provided by Orange) which may cost extra whether they are supplied in conjunction with Service Plans or outside Service Plans.

    'Orange' Orange Personal Communications Services Limited, or any organisation that may succeed it as the assignee of this Contract. Referred to in this Contract from time to time as "we" "us" or "our".

    'Price Guide' a list of our current Charges which is updated from time to time and is available from us upon request.

    'Registration' our acceptance of your application for Services and our record of your data and any User data prior to Connection. "Register" has a corresponding meaning.

    'Roaming' An optional Service which allows you to use your Device on other operators' networks, usually in foreign countries.

    'Services' Network and other Services, including Orange Additional Services, provided or procured by us for you to use.

    'Service Plan' a number of products which shall include but not be limited to bundles of airtime, text, and/or Orange Additional Services and/or additional discounts offered by Orange for an agreed monthly or other periodic payment.

    'SIM' a card or other device which shall for the avoidance of doubt include a USIM which contains your personal telephone number and which is programmed to allow you to access the Network.

    'Suspension' the temporary disconnection of Services. "Suspend" has a corresponding meaning.

    'User' you, or another person named by you, who is authorised to incur Charges to your Account.


    2 Your Contract and the Minimum Term


    your contract runs for at least the Minimum Term

    2.1 For each Device you own, your Contract starts on the date of Registration and will continue for the Minimum Term and thereafter You have limited rights to terminate your Contract during the Minimum Term as described in Section 4.


    what happens when the minimum term ends

    2.2 After the Minimum Term ends, we will continue to supply you with Services as normal until your Contract is terminated in any of the ways described in Section 4.


    3 Providing services


    what we aim to provide in the UK

    3.1 We will take all reasonable steps to make the Services available to you at all times. The Services are only available within the range of the base stations that make up our Network. We cannot guarantee a continuous fault free service. Please note that:

    3.1.1 the quality and availability of Services may sometimes be affected by factors outside our control - such as local physical obstructions, atmospheric conditions, other causes of radio interference, features or functionality of your Device, the number of people trying to use the network at the same time, and faults in other telecommunication networks to which the Network is connected.

    3.1.2 the quality of our Services may not be at its best inside buildings or below ground.

    3.2 When you move outside the Orange enhanced service area this may result in:

    3.2.1 the call being terminated if you are on a video call.

    3.2.2 the speeds at which data is downloaded being affected.

    3.3 Any coverage maps are our best estimate but not a guarantee of service coverage which may vary from place to place.


    Services may sometimes be affected by maintenance and upgrading

    3.4 The Network and the Services may from time to time require upgrading, modification, maintenance or other works. These may result in some or all of the Services becoming temporarily unavailable. In such cases, we'll do everything we can to keep the period of non-availability to a minimum. However, some interruption may be inevitable.


    suspension of Services

    3.5 We may suspend some or all of the Services you use, without giving you notice if:

    3.5.1 we have good reason to believe that you haven't complied with one or more of the terms of your Contract.

    3.5.2 you don't pay your bill within the time stipulated in Condition 6.2; we reserve the right to place a Bar on some or all of the Services from your Device (with the exception of calls to the emergency services). This Bar will remain in force until you've paid everything you owe us. At our discretion, we may charge you for Reconnection and removal of the Bar.

    3.5.3 we also reserve the right to Suspend Services if a complaint has been made against you. The complaint will be thoroughly investigated, and Services will remain suspended until we know the results of that investigation. Any complaint you make will similarly be thoroughly investigated.

    3.5.4 we have good reason to believe that your mobile phone number is being used for fraudulent or improper purposes.

    3.5.5 we suspect on reasonable grounds that information has been supplied to us without the knowledge of the person named or that an application is unauthorised or contains false particulars.

    3.5.6 you notify us that your Device has been lost or stolen.

    3.5.7 we are required by the emergency services or other government authorities to suspend your Services.

    3.6 You will remain liable for all monthly or other periodic Charges during any period of Suspension.


    suspension of Orange Additional Services

    3.7 We reserve the right to change, suspend or withdraw part or all of any Orange Additional Service on giving reasonable notice.


    monitoring the Services you use

    3.8 For the purposes of good management and security and to make sure we follow your instructions correctly and to improve our service to you through training of our staff, or to monitor instances of unsolicited messages we may monitor or record communications. Where we have good reason to believe such communication is unsolicited you agree we may but are not obliged to block such communication.


    roaming Services outside the UK

    3.9 Roaming relies on the telecommunications systems of foreign networks, over which we have no control. We cannot therefore offer any guarantees about Roaming services.

    3.10 If you use Services from a country outside the UK your use of the Services may be subject to different laws and regulations that apply in that other country. Orange is not liable for your failure to comply with those laws or regulations


    Storage and transmission of information on our Network

    3.11 We may establish limits concerning the use of the Services for example the maximum size of an email message that may be sent or received, the maximum capacity allocated to you for storage of Content on the Network which you access via the Services.

    3.12 You agree that Orange has no responsibility for the deletion, corruption or failure to store any content maintained or transmitted by the Network.

    3.13 Whilst Orange has no responsibility to monitor the use of the Services if you exceed the use limits we reserve the right to refuse to store or send Content on your behalf.


    Access to the Services and Content

    3.14 Under no circumstances will Orange or any of the other parties involved in the provision of Orange Content, be liable for any losses, damages, costs or expenses arising from or in any way connected with any errors, defects, interruptions, malfunctions or delays in Content or the provision of Content. Orange agrees to rectify any such problems in the Content which are notified to Orange as soon as Orange reasonably can. If you do notice a fault or error in the Content, please notify the fault to Orange.

    3.15 Orange accepts no liability for the, loss, late receipt or non-readability of any download, transmission, or other communications. The Content, which is obtained from a large range of sources, is supplied to You on an "as is" basis and Orange does not warrant that the Content is of satisfactory quality, fit for a particular purpose, suitable, reliable, accurate, complete, secure or is free from error.


    Access to the third party services and the internet

    3.16 We have no control over the value or quality of goods, services or Content offered by third parties on or through the Services. As a result we cannot be responsible or liable in any way for and do not endorse, any of these goods, services or Content.

    3.17 The Services may be used by you to access websites and networks worldwide. Orange accept no responsibility for the Content or services in respect of these and you agree to conform with the instructions issued by those websites and networks relating to your use of those services.

    3.18 If you use your Device to access the internet or third party services as it may not be a secure environment unwanted programs or material or viruses may be downloaded to your Device without your knowledge which may give unauthorised access to, or damage your Device and the information stored on it. Orange is not liable or responsible in any way for such unauthorised access, damage to or loss of information on your Device.


    Age Restricted Services

    3.19 You are not permitted to access our Age Restricted Services (if any) if you are below the age specified to access the Services. If you are allowed to access the Age Restricted Services by virtue of the fact you are the specified age or older you must not show or send Content from the Age Restricted Services to anyone below the specified age. If you let anyone under the specified age use your Device you must ensure you deactivate access to the Age Restricted Services.



    your rights to terminate this Contract


    terminating your Contract after the Minimum Term

    4.1 You may terminate your Contract to expire at anytime after the Minimum Term by giving us at least one month's notice. You are free to restore your Contract throughout this notice period, should you change your mind.


    terminating your Contract during the Minimum Term

    4.2 You may terminate your Contract before the Minimum Term has expired if you pay us:

    4.2.1 all Charges that are due, plus

    4.2.2 a lump sum equivalent to the total of all the monthly or other periodic Charges still remaining on your initial Minimum Term agreement (except in the circumstances set out in Conditions 4.3 and 15.1). You'll be entitled to a rebate of 5% of that total if you terminate your Contract up to and including the first day of the last month of the Minimum Term.


    terminating your Contract because Orange has changed its terms

    4.3 You may also terminate your Contract if we vary its terms, resulting in an excessive increase in the Charges or changes that alter your rights under this Contract to your detriment. In such cases you would need to give us at least 14 days written notice prior to your Billing Date (and within one month of us telling you about the changes). However this option does not apply if:

    4.3.1 we have increased the Charges by an amount equal to or less than the percentage increase in the All Items Index of Retail Prices published by the Central Statistical Office in the Monthly Digest of Statistics in any 12 month period; or

    4.3.2 the variations we have made have been imposed on us as a direct result of new legislation, statutory instrument, government regulation or licence; or

    4.3.3 the variation relates solely to an Orange Additional Service, in which case you may cancel that Orange Additional Service in accordance with Condition 15.1.


    terminating your contract because Orange is no longer able to provide access to the Network

    4.4 If, for reasons beyond our control, we are no longer able to provide Network Services, we will at our discretion either:

    4.4.1 make arrangements for you to be supplied with equivalent Services by another network at no extra cost to you, or

    4.4.2 accept written notice from you that you wish to terminate your Contract. In such cases we will refund any pre-paid Charges that have not been used up.


    termination of your Contract by Orange

    4.5 We may terminate your Contract immediately at any time in respect of any or all the Devices owned by you, in whole or in part, by giving you written notice if:

    4.5.1 you fail to pass any credit assessments which we may reasonably consider to be necessary from time to time

    4.5.2 you fail to pay any of your bills from Orange on time

    4.5.3 we have good reason for believing that any information you have given us is false or misleading

    4.5.4 you become insolvent within the meaning of Section 123 of the Insolvency Act 1986, or bankrupt, or make any arrangement with creditors or go into liquidation or become subject to an administration order or a receiver is appointed over any of your assets or if we have good reason for believing that you are unable to pay the Charges

    4.5.5 in addition, we may terminate your Contract at any time after the Minimum Term has expired by giving you at least one month's written notice.


    termination of your contract by Orange without written notice

    4.6 We reserve the right to terminate your contract immediately at any time in respect of any or all of the Devices owned by you, in whole or in part without notice to you if

    4.6.1 we have good reason for believing that you have breached Conditions 6.4.2, 6.4.3, 6.4.4 or 6.4.5, 6.4.8, 6.4.9, 6.4.10, 6.4.11 or

    4.6.2 you haven't complied with one or more of the terms of your Contract and do not correct the breach within 7 days of being asked by us in writing to do so.


    termination and Line Two

    4.7 Termination of your Contract for any reason connected with Line One will result in automatic termination of Line Two.



    effect of Termination of the Agreement


    5.1 When this Agreement is terminated, your Device will be Disconnected and you will no longer be able to use the Services.


    what to do after Termination of your Contract

    5.2 Termination of your Contract is subject to you paying us any money you owe us and us paying you any money we owe you. After termination, it is your responsibility to cancel any direct debits, standing orders, credit card mandates or other authorisations you may have given for periodic payments to be made to us by third parties.



    your responsibilities


    when your payments are due

    6.1 Ordinarily we will invoice you monthly in advance for monthly charges which are non-refundable and monthly in arrears for call and message charges but we reserve the right to amend the invoicing period and submit interim invoices to you. The Connection charge will be included on your first invoice. Charges in respect of Services not supplied directly by us e.g. Roaming may be invoiced several months in arrears. VAT will be added to all invoices at the relevant rate where applicable. Payment is due when you receive your invoice.

    6.1.1 you will be responsible for paying all Charges on your Account, whether or not they have been accrued by you personally. You will also be responsible for any extraordinary costs incurred in administering your Account, including collecting any payments. If your Service has been Disconnected, either at your request or ours, you will remain responsible for paying any outstanding Charges.

    6.1.2 you must make your payment when you receive your invoice and by one of the payment methods stated on your invoice subject to clause 6.3. However we may also submit an interim bill or require an immediate payment if we think you have exceeded a reasonable limit on your Account.


    penalties for overdue payments

    6.2 If payment is not made within 14 days of its due date, we may charge interest on all sums outstanding at the rate of 2% above the base rate of National Westminster Bank. This interest will be charged on a per annum basis calculated daily.


    payment methods

    6.3 Ordinarily we will accept payment of Charges by credit card, debit card, cheque, direct debit and electronic transfer, but we reserve the right to refuse any payment method if we have reasonable cause to believe such payment will be dishonoured.

    6.3.1 we reserve the right to charge an administration fee each month for payments not made by direct debit.

    6.3.2 we may arrange for invoices to be issued by a third party on our behalf. Invoices issued by such third party shall be binding on you and payment of such invoices in full to the third party will be a valid discharge of your liability to pay such invoices under this Agreement.


    things that you agree to do

    6.4 Recognising that good management and security of the Services is important to all Orange customers, you agree that you will:

    6.4.1 provide whatever proofs of your identity and address that we consider reasonably necessary from time to time. Whilst photocopy or fax copies are usually acceptable we do reserve the right to request the original document

    6.4.2 keep confidential, and not disclose to any third party, your Account password or any personal identification code, number or name issued by us permitting access to the Services

    6.4.3 not use the Services for any improper, immoral, fraudulent or unlawful purposes or for the sending of any communication or storing any data which is of an offensive, abusive, indecent, obscene or menacing nature

    6.4.4 not cause, nor knowingly allow others to cause, any nuisance, annoyance or inconvenience, whether to us or to any of our customers, by any means including the use of the Network for persistently sending unsolicited communications without reasonable cause

    6.4.5 not act in a way, whether knowingly or otherwise, which will impair the operation of the Network or any part of it, or put it in jeopardy

    6.4.6 use only Devices and Accessories approved for use with the Network, and comply with all relevant legislation or regulation relating to their use

    6.4.7 comply with any reasonable instructions issued by us which concern your use of the Services, and co-operate with us in our reasonable security and other checks (which may include us making phone calls to you)

    6.4.8 not send or upload anything that is copyright protected (unless you have permission) or which in any way breaches the intellectual property rights of any third party

    6.4.9 not copy, modify, store, forward, publish or distribute the Services or their Content without our express permission

    6.4.10 only use Content for your own personal use and not for any commercial purposes or distribute it commercially

    6.4.11 not to re-sell, re-supply or otherwise distribute the Services or Devices without the prior written agreement of Orange

    6.4.12 not to circumvent the Age Restricted Service mechanisms.



    multiple users


    7.1 Where there are one or more Users other than you under your Contract, you remain responsible :-

    7.1.1 for ensuring the Services are used in accordance with this Contract and

    7.1.2 for all Charges incurred to your Account by those Users.




    Line Two - limitations on usage


    Suspension of Services

    8.1 If we Suspend Services on Line One, Services on Line Two will automatically be Suspended also.


    electronic messages

    8.2 It is not possible to send electronic messages on Line Two this shall include but not be limited to, text, video and multi media messages.


    Service Plan

    8.3 You may not have a higher Service Plan on Line Two than you have on Line One.



    information supplied by you


    the details you give us must be correct

    9.1 By applying for Registration or for Orange Additional Services, you undertake to provide your correct name, address and other factual information. You also confirm that:

    9.1.1 the person stated to be authorised to sign for a company or firm is duly authorised

    9.1.2 any individual applying as a member of a company is of full contractual capacity and is able both to pay for the Services he or she has requested and to meet his or her other obligations under your Contract.

    9.1.3 You must also tell us if your details change.


    what happens if we suspect the details you give us aren't correct

    9.2 If we suspect, on reasonable grounds, that information has been supplied to us without the knowledge of the person named, or that an application is unauthorised or contains false particulars, we may delay Connection or Suspend Services to your Device while we investigate further. Following our investigation, we will Connect or reinstate the Services unless we have grounds to terminate. You acknowledge that you will have no claim against us in respect of any delay or Disconnection caused as a result of the operation of this Condition.




    credit assessments


    your application is subject to credit status

    10.1 All applications for Registration and Orange Additional Services are subject to credit assessment before we can connect you to the Network. In considering your application we will search your record at the licensed credit reference agencies. They will add to your record details of our search and your application. We will use credit scoring or other automated decision making systems when assessing your application. If our assessment of you does not meet our normal requirements we reserve the right to decline to Connect you or to supply Orange Additional Services or to decide an appropriate credit limit on your Account. Alternatively, we may ask you to lodge a Deposit with us before we Connect you. If you believe our assessment of you is incorrect, we will review your eligibility. However, we cannot accept responsibility for the accuracy of information provided from the databases of credit reference agencies. Nor can we accept any liability for the consequences of our declining to Connect you.

    10.2 We will also check your details with a fraud prevention agency who will record details of any false or inaccurate information provided by you where we suspect fraud. We or other organisations may use and search these records to:

    10.2.1 help make decisions about credit and credit related services, for you and members of your household

    10.2.2 help make decisions on motor, household, credit, life and other insurance claims, for you and members of your household

    10.2.3 trace debtors, recover debt, prevent fraud, and to manage your Accounts or insurance policies

    10.2.4 check your identity to prevent money laundering, unless you furnish us with other satisfactory proof of identity

    10.3 We may also disclose details of how you conduct your Account to such agencies. The information will be used by other credit grantors for making credit decisions about you and the other members of your household, for fraud prevention, debt recovery, money laundering prevention, tracing debtors and Account management. For these purposes we or they may make further searches. Although these searches will be added to your record they will not be shared by others.

    10.4 Please contact us if you would like details of these credit reference and fraud prevention agencies from whom we obtain and to whom we pass information about you. You have a legal right to this information.





    deposits are held for 12 months

    11.1 We may request a deposit from you:

    a)before Connection

    b)before making Orange Additional Services available to you, or

    c)before reinstating the Services after Suspension

    d)if you fail to pass any credit assessments which we reasonably consider to be necessary from time to time.

    11.2 Deposits will be held for 12 months from the date of receipt and then refunded upon request. We do not pay interest on Deposits. If you owe us money, we may set off Deposits against the amount due to us. If there is a balance left over in such cases, we will remit this to you or credit your Account



    SIM Card


    it's your responsibility to keep your SIM Card safe

    12.1 Any SIM Card we supply to you remains our property, but it is your responsibility to keep it safe. SIM Cards are easily damaged and should be handled with care. We will replace free of charge any SIM Card found to be defective through faulty design or workmanship. In any other circumstances, however, we may charge for replacing it. We reserve the right to recall any SIM Card from you at any time to enhance or maintain the quality of the Services.


    what to do if your SIM Card is lost, stolen or damaged

    12.2 You must inform us immediately if the SIM Card supplied to you is lost, stolen or damaged. You will remain liable for all Charges incurred until you do so. We will send you a replacement SIM Card as soon as reasonably practicable, but we reserve the right to charge you for doing so.


    your SIM Card and other networks

    12.3 The SIM Card supplied with your Device enables the Device to work on our Network only Ð with the exception of Devices which can access Roaming Services. However, after the Minimum Term we will lift this restriction at your request, provided all your payments of Charges are up to date and you pay the current administration charge.

    The software in the SIM Card and the Device is either owned by or licensed to Orange which grants you a non-exclusive licence to use it for accessing the Services for the duration of your Contract and not otherwise.




    directory and Caller id


    what to do if you want your number to remain private

    13.1 We will enter your Orange number in Orange and third party directories, and our Network will allow the display of your Orange number on receiving Devices. If you prefer not to allow either of these options, please let us know in writing. Your mobile phone number and the approximate location of your Device will always be sent if calling the emergency services.






    your Device is not a part of your Contract

    14.1 Your Device and Accessories are acquired by you outside the terms of your Contract.




    changes to your Contract


    we reserve the right to make changes to your Contract

    15.1 When you Register you are asked to choose a Service Plan and to indicate which Orange Additional Services you require.You will not be able to switch to a lower Service Plan for the first 6 months of a 12 month contract or the first 9 months of an 18 month contract. After the first 6 or 9 months, as appropriate, you may switch to the next lowest value Service Plan a maximum of one time once for the remainder of your contract term. You are able to switch to an equivalent or high Service Plan at any time.

    We do, however, reserve the right to vary the terms of this Contract from time to time and to make changes to your Service Plan. We acknowledge that if we do increase the Charges, withdraw Orange Additional Services or introduce new mandatory Charges - or if your contractual rights are affected to your detriment - you may terminate your Contract in accordance with Condition 4.3. If you do not give notice within one month of our notifying you of any change(s), you will be taken to have accepted the change(s).

    15.2 In exceptional circumstances a government authority may require the reallocation or change of phone numbers in which case we may have to change your mobile phone number for the Services.


    new services

    15.3 We are continuously enhancing our existing Services as well as adding new services, particularly Orange Additional Services. Charges for, and any special terms and conditions attached to Orange Additional Services will be notified in Customer Communication. The terms of your Contract, including Charges current on the date when you take up the offer of any Orange Additional Service, will apply to it, subject to any special promotional offer made by us and accepted by you.



    Customer Communication


    please read all the information we send you

    16.1 We update our Customer Communication from time to time. Information on various topics is mailed to Customers with their monthly billing statements and is available on request from us. You are asked to read your Customer Communications and to keep those which are mailed to you until they are superseded. We regard you as having been given any information if it is either:

    a)included in a mailing addressed to you

    b)by voicemail, email text or other form of electronic message sent by us to your Device

    c)communicated directly by any means.




    assignment of Contract and change of ownership of Device


    your Contract is personal to you

    17.1 Your Contract is personal to you and you may not assign it. However, we may at our discretion (not to be unreasonably withheld) allow you to:

    a)nominate a User other than yourself while you remain primarily liable to us under your Contract

    b)terminate your Contract on short notice if you have transferred title to your Device to a new customer who has Connected the Device to our Network.

    17.2 We may assign our rights to your Contract only if such assignment is on terms which are at least as advantageous to you as those set out in your Contract.






    circumstances in which neither of us accepts liability

    18.1 Except as provided in this Condition 18, neither party shall be liable to the other, whether in contract or tort nor otherwise, for any loss or damage which is:

    a)not the fault of the other party

    b)indirect and/or not reasonably foreseeable

    c)loss of business, profits, savings, revenue, use or goodwill, or for any loss or corruption of data whether caused to the other party through any breach of your Contract or any matters arising under it. Neither party excludes liability for negligent acts or omissions causing death or personal injury to any person.


    maximum liability of Orange

    18.2 Subject to Condition 18.1, we limit our legal liability up to a maximum of three thousand pounds per claim or a series of related claims for any loss or damage which is:

    a)direct financial loss

    b)direct physical damage to or loss of property resulting from our breach of contract or negligence while providing Services.


    factors beyond our control

    18.3 We will not be liable to you if we are unable to perform an obligation or provide the Services to you because of any factor outside our control, including but not limited to Acts of God, industrial action, default or failure of a third party, war, terrorist act, governmental action, or by any act or decision made by a court of competent jurisdiction.


    your maximum liability

    18.4 Subject to Condition 18.1, your liability is limited to payment of all outstanding Charges due in accordance with the provisions of your Contract.






    changes to your Contract

    19.1 Subject to Condition 15, your Contract may be varied or amended only by the express mutual agreement of both parties. A party seeking to rely on such variation or amendment must produce evidence of the other party's agreement to it.


    disclosure of information to third parties

    19.2 You agree to the disclosure to any telecommunications company, debt collection agency, credit reference agency, credit or fraud monitoring scheme, security agency or credit provider of:

    a)any information relating to your Contract, including your personal financial information and details of how you have performed in meeting your obligations under your Contract

    b)any disclosure as may be within our Data Protection Act registration

    c)any disclosure required as a result of an order of any court of competent jurisdiction or by statutory authority.


    Your information

    19.3 Orange or its Group companies will use your information which you provide to us together with other information for administration, marketing, credit scoring, customer services, tracking your Device and web use preferences, and profiling your purchasing preferences. We will disclose your information to our service providers and agents to help us with these purposes. We will keep your information for a reasonable period after your contract with us has finished in case you decide to use our Services again and may contact you about our Services during this time.

    19.4 By registering your Device on the Network you consent to us sharing your information with other companies in the Orange Group and companies outside the Orange Group who are our business partners. They or we may contact you by mail, telephone, electronic messaging services, fax or email to let you know about any goods, services or promotions which may be of interest to you. Please call customer services if you do not wish to receive such information from us, or if you do not wish to receive information from our business partners, but remember that this will preclude you from receiving any of our special offers or promotions or those of our business partners.

    19.5 By registering your Device on the Network you consent to our transferring your information to countries which do not provide the same level of data protection as the UK if necessary for providing you services you require. If we do make such a transfer, we will put a contract in place to ensure your information is protected.

    19.6 You have a right to ask for a copy of your information (for which we charge a small fee) and to correct any inaccuracies.

    19.7 When you give us information about another person you confirm that they have appointed you to act for them, to consent to the processing of their personal data, and to the transfer of their information abroad and to receive on their behalf any data protection notices.

    19.8 For details of the Orange Group of Companies please visit our website.


    delivering communications to you

    19.9 All notices to be served in accordance with your Contract must be served by post or facsimile. We can in addition serve notice to you by voicemail, email text or other form of electronic message. They will be deemed served 48 hours after they are sent, or on earlier proof of delivery. All invoices and notices served by post will be sent to the address given by you on Registration unless you notify us of a change to this address.

    Any waiver, concession or extra time we may allow you is limited to the specific circumstances in which it is given and does not affect our rights in any other way.


    disputes between you and us

    19.10 You may request that disputes between you and us are referred to arbitration under our Code of Practice for Consumer Affairs. We will supply a copy of our Code of Practice for Consumer Affairs to you on request.



    19.11 If either party delays or does not take action to enforce their rights under the contract this does not prevent either party from taking action later.

    19.12 If any of the terms in this contract are not valid or legally enforceable the other terms will not be affected. We may replace any term that is not legally effective with a similar term that is.


    Orange company details

    19.13 Our Company Registration Number is 2178917 and our Registered Office is at St James Court, Great Park Road, Almondsbury Park, Bradley Stoke, Bristol, BS32 4QJ.


    governing law

    19.14 Your Contract is to be interpreted in accordance with the Laws of England and Wales.




    Your Group Account


    20.1 A Your Group account can comprise of a minimum of 2 pay monthly subscriptions (PM), or one pay monthly and one pay as you go subscription (PAYG). The maximum number of subscriptions to be associated with a Your Group account is 8, comprised of a maximum of 4 pay monthly and 4 pay as you go subscriptions.

    20.2 The Your Group Account holder must be a pay monthly subscriber.

    20.3 All subscriptions on a Your Group Account must be on one account with one account holder.

    20.4 The Your Group Account Holder will be able to access all other Your Group account members account details and make amendments.

    20.5 Eligible customers on any of the current Pay Monthly talkplans can take up a Your Group account including all of the Dolphin, Racoon, Panther & Canary talkplans. However some exclusions do apply, see below.

    20.6 All calls made from the Pay Monthly & Pay As You Go Your Group subscribers to other Your Group phones on the same account will be free of charge and minutes made to Your Group phones will not decrement any inclusive talkplan or promotional minutes each customer holds. The free minutes can only be used whilst you are in the UK for calls to other members in the same Your Group account.

    20.7 There is no rollover on the Your Group promotional minutes.

    20.8 Calls to other Your Group phones on the same account are limited by a fair usage policy of 3000 minutes per month. Usage above this amount will constitute abuse and Orange may, at its discretion, monitor usage and withdraw one or all subscribers from a Your Group account in the event that the fair usage policy is abused.

    20.9 All pay as you go subscriptions must be topped up on either a monthly or a weekly basis by the Your Group account holder. The top up(s) will be billed to the Your Group Account in advance. The minimum top up amount is £2.50 per week; £10 per month, the maximum is £7.50 per week, £30 per month.

    20.10 Pay as you go customers will continue to receive weekly top-ups until the next Pay monthly bill date if they remain connected to the network but no longer wish to be part of the Your Group account.

    20.11 Orange reserves the right to amend, vary or cancel these terms and conditions or to withdraw this product at any time upon reasonable notice to you.

    20.12 Service is subject to the standard terms and conditions for the supply of network services and the terms and conditions for the supply of Orange pay as you go services. Where there is any inconsistency between these terms and conditions and the standard network terms and pay as you go terms referred to above, the latter will prevail. Orange reserves the right to withdraw the Your Group Account in event that you breach these terms or the standard network services terms or the Orange pay as you go terms.

    20.13 The following exclusions apply:

    a)Customers on business tariffs and business customers, OVP, Upfront and Direct, Off-peak value plan, Your Plan, talk plans that are no longer offered to new customers and Talk Share are not eligible.

    b)A Your Group Account cannot be set up on Line 2.

    20.14 Individual members of the current Your Group account are not eligible to migrate to the new Your Group proposition unless ALL members agree to migrate (and subject to migration policy terms and conditions).

    20.15 Existing customers are only eligible to create a new Your Group account if they agree to move to the New Grid (in which case they do not need to re-sign a new contract unless they upgrade at the same time) or a Segment Proposition.




    Love your number


    Note: When you transfer from Pay as you Go to Pay Monthly you will loose any credit remaining on your Pay as you Go subscription. If the customer requires their balance to be transferred to their Pay Monthly account, this must be arranged by calling Customer Services prior to the transfer taking place. Any numbers stored on the customer’s Pay as you Go sim card should be written down before the transfer takes place, any stored numbers will be deleted from the sim card during the transfer process.


    Printed on:2010-05-28 02:39:55 closex.png

  6. Jut to be be clear it is not Orange that is at fault here. We had hoped that in a desire to retain customers they would waive/reimburse the fee but alas they are not willing to do so.

    What is at issue here is the disparity between the T&Cs as presented by bmp and Orange.

    I have taken the liberty of saving a copy (just in case they decide to get themselves upto date and change them) of the T&cs which bmp request you to read prior to accepting the contractual agreement which I more than happy to post here for the brains in the know to peruse



  7. You say that buymobilephones are digging their heels in - what has been their actual reply to your GF's complaint?

    I'm a wee bit typsy so forgive me for any rambling. To try and cut down on said rambling I shall utilise the power of bullet points (to save on typing from here on in buymobilephones=bmp).m Note that this is a wee bit complicated due to the fact that bmf dont seem to have a clue what the hell they are talking about.

    1) The contract is past the 14 day get out phase.

    2) On discovering the charge for the delivery notice she contacted bmf

    3) Initially they were very dismissive thinking my gf was just being stupid. They did then go through the T&Cs which they present to potential Orange customers and agreed that indeed in does not contain a clause relating to the fee for delivery status of text msgs.

    4) They went onto say that in order to cancel the contract they would require a contract agreement cancellation number which would have to come from Orange.

    5) GF calls Orange and the first person she speaks to is very dismissive. Not their problem. Take it up with bmp.

    6) She requests a more senior member of staff from Orange call her back, which they duly did.

    7) No give. It is apparently impossible to waive the fee as their systems will not allow it. They are also not willing to re-reimburse the cost on a month by month basis..

    8) She states, on my advice admittedly, that the contract has been illegally mis-represented thus she is not willingly to pay the fee for delivery charges and if they do not honour the T&Cs (note that these are the T&Cs as presented by bmp which don not contain these charges and not Orange's which do) which she agreed to then we would consider legal action.

    9) Upon the threat of legal action the Orange representative was no longer able to take things, or discuss things, any further (probably for legal reasons) but did agree to have someone higher up call her tomorrow..

    10) Orange refuse to supply a cancellation agreement number.

    11) I'll throw this in too, bmp are being arsey about the fact that the sin has been use...errrr yeah what do they expect exactly?


    So, to summarise Orange will not honour the terms as presented by bmp, and to be honest it's not their fault that their terms have been misrepresented.

    Orange will not waive the fees

    Orange will not authorize a cancellation of the policy

    bmp will not cancel the contract without authorisation from Orange



    While Orange have strictly speaking done nothing wrong I would've thought they'd be concerned that their T&C's are being misrepresented and as such leading to customer dissatisfaction.

    You would think so yes, however they don't seem to give a rats arse.


    Another thing to consider is just how important delivery reports are when you're shelling out an additional £6 plus a month out.

    She has her reasons for needing a delivery report which are of a private nature. The £6+ a month adds up to over a £100 over the course of the contract. One of the reasons she took the contract out in the first place was that given the number of minutes and text msgs included it was guaranteed that her monthly bill would never exceed £40. This was a major selling point so to have in suddenly leap to £46+ a month is unacceptable.


    All I'd say you can do is to try and reason with buymobilephones to see if a compromise can't be met.


    Good luck.

    So far they they seem unwilling to budge. It means for us, at the least, lots more lengthy phone calls with them refusing to do ****.

    To my mind bmp have misrepresented the contract that my gf signed upto and thus they are ultimately accountable. Its just a question of what legal power we have to throw at them to resolve this issue.

    One further point which I must reiterise is the importance of my gf being able to keep her phone number through whatever results from this as losing it would cause no end of *** and worries.



    * the GF already has a phone which see wants to keep so the plan was to get a new phone + free gift (cash back) and sell the phone that came with the new agreement. Consequently the new phone is still unused and in its original packaging.



  8. My GF bought a mobile phone from buymobilephones at the start of march on an 18 month contract from Orange (Dolphin 40 + internet) at a cost of £40/mnth.

    During the purchase procedure she was presented with the Orange T&Cs which she duly read and accepted.

    On receiving her first bill in transpires that they charge 1p for delivery reports on text messages. This may not seem like a lot but when your sending 600+ msgs a month in soon adds up, and over the course of the contract will exceed £100.

    She queried this with Orange who stated that it is included in their T&Cs, and indeed it is. The issue is is that it is not stated in the T&Cs as presented by buymobilephones.

    Obviously she does not want to pay this charge and feels that buymobilephones have mis-represented the T7Cs of Orange.

    She has contacted buymobilephones who are admirably digging their heels in.

    She has also contacted Orange who state that the charge cannot be removed, nor will they credit her account with the appropriate amount each month and nor will they cancel the contract.

    She is currently awaiting Orange getting back to her with the final word on the subject and needs to recontact buymobilephones 2mrw to try and hash it out with them.

    A few complicating issues are:

    1) She is past the 14 days get out period

    2) She ported her number over to Orange and in the event they do agree to cancel the contract she does not want to lose it.

    3) buymobilephones would require a cancellation reference number from Orange if they were agree to cancel, Orange will not supply this.


    So, I want to know where we stand on this issue. If it comes to it do we have legal recourse to slam dunk buymobilephones or Orange in line?


    Cheers for any advice



  9. He laid her on the table,

    so white and clean and bear.

    His forehead wet with beads of sweat,

    he rubbed her here and there.

    He touched her neck and felt her breast,

    then drooling felt her thigh.

    The slit was wet and all was set,

    he gave a joyous cry.

    The hole was wide...he looked inside,

    all was dark and murky.

    He rubbed his hands and stretched his arms.....

    Then stuffed the xmas turkey



  10. I think it can be transferred but if it's transferred and then your Mum needs to go into a care home it can be considered as giving away assets and they can take the value into account anyway.


    Have a look on the Help the Aged website, search for Care Home in that site and there's a bit of information there.


    Also, before you do anything, get legal advice. If you're in a Union you might be able to get some free advice through them.


    I think that only applies if she was to go into a home within 5 years of transfer, but dont quote me...




  11. The Heaviest Element Known to Science


    Lawrence Livermore Laboratories has discovered the heaviest element yet known to science.


    The new element, Governmentium (Gv), has one neutron, 25 assistant neutrons, 88 deputy neutrons, and 198 assistant deputy neutrons, giving it an atomic mass of 312.


    These 312 particles are held together by forces called morons, which are surrounded by vast quantities of lepton-like particles called peons.z


    Since Governmentium has no electrons, it is inert; however, it can be detected, because it impedes every reaction with which it comes into contact. A tiny amount of Governmentium can cause a reaction that would normally take less than a second, to take from 4 days to 4 years to complete.



    Governmentium has a normal half-life of 2- 6 years. It does not decay, but instead undergoes a reorganization in which a portion of the assistant neutrons and deputy neutrons exchange places.


    In fact, Governmentium's mass will actually increase over time, since each reorganization will cause more morons to become neutrons, forming isodopes.


    This characteristic of morons promotion leads some scientists to believe that Governmentium is formed whenever morons reach a critical concentration. This hypothetical quantity is referred to as critical morass.



    When catalysed with money, Governmentium becomes Administratium, an element that radiates just as much energy as Governmentium since it has half as many peons but twice as many morons.


    skb :-D

  12. HI symbio-dek


    Can I ask what data it was that you requested and what they actually sent?

    Has the time limit for compliance ran out?


    Your first step will be to send them an LBA informing them of the shortcomings in the data giving them, say, 14 days to remedy the situation. Something along the lines of post 33 in the Ashwall thread havinastella linked too.

    If this does not yield the desired results then you should report them to the Information Commisioners Office here. (The ICO may decide to fine them, which would be nice).




  13. I suppose if we look at someone spending 300 quid a week on goods/services/provisions.

    Assuming all of it is subject to VAT then the 2.5% represents a saving of £7.50

    So the price of a packet of 20 cigarettes and a pint.

    Or a couple of big mac meals.


    Dont think its worth a BIG song and dance over.

    Although the estimated cost to the Governments coffers in lost duty is said to be £112 billion.


    Try £12.5 billion :D (Darling to slash VAT and spark Xmas spree | Politics | The Observer)



  14. [quote=Gilbert_O'Sullivan;1835865}..snip

    In any case the vat reduction is only worthwhile if people buy high value stuff regularly, like cars every month or so. Not what average joe does.


    NO. For low value purchases the premise is that on every transaction you make you save a few pennies. At the end of the month you may only have a pound in your pocket that you wouldn't normally have, but it is still a pound which is likely to get spent.



  15. First of all.... Bin Laden Has Never Claimed That He Was Responsible For 9/11....


    No Body Has Ever Took Responsibility For What Happened That Day...


    The People Responsible Are The People Who Are Blaiming Bin Laden & That The WORLD GOVERNMENT, NOT HE USA,


    But The USA, UK, RUSSIA & More...


    Visit Alex Jones' Infowars: There's a war on for your mind! with an open mind, read between the lines and dont stand up for law and order and say but why would they do that, sit down and listen and ask yourslef how did they do that, because it was the most amazing trick ever, over 78% of america believe it was a conspiracy.


    muslims arnt bad for killing our soldiers, they are mearly standing up for them selfs, just as we did during the world war,


    lets face it, who would let the USA & UK blame them and declare war on their country, when their innocent... they are defending them selfs...




    Alex Jones' Infowars: There's a war on for your mind!




    I suggest you stop taking your woo woo pills, get a grip on reality and read up on the truth rather than the twoof.


    You can start the ball rolling by reading everything on this page.

    Then once you digested that you can move onto this.



  16. Hi Nevos


    I would agree its not your typical MLM scheme with regards to its products (typical ones being beauty products, timeshares, cleaning products, psuedo health products and snake oil). In structure though it does follow the MLM template.


    The big question is:

    How would you plan on obtaining new personnal customers??

    Website based, door-to-door or cold calling?

    Would you be doing it on a part time basis or full time?

    (I had a brief stint touting gas/electricity/home phone as a combined service door-to-door about 8 years ago and let me tell you it was not easy).


    I have to say I had never heard of Telecom plus prior to this thread and I imagine many other people haven't either. That would be a major problem to overcome in any marketing or sales drive you may make.


    It is unlikely that the market will become saturated with customers (ie everyone on Telecom) as people tend to switch and change suppliers quite regularly.

    What is more likely is that an area will become saturated with distributors. From my days knocking door to door it was not uncommon to bump into rival salesmen almost every day. Many 'potential' customers would have several salesmen from differing companies round in one week.

    Indeed many, often in poorer areas, used this to their advantage by constantly switching their providers, almost on a monthly basis (if not more so). The ensuing confusion in the billing process meant many hadnt had a bill in several years.


    As far as renumeration goes the sign up bonuses are pretty low in comparison to what you would receive as a door-to-door advisor and I would question whether these are 'clawed' back if the customer changes their mind and leaves within a certain time frame.


    It is difficult to comment on the personnal customer commission rates as only a range is given (2.4 to 5.4 %). How this is broken down between the differing utilities could have a large impact on how much cash you receive.


    If I was to enter into this scheme (which I wont be I might add) I would concentrate solely on building a personnal customer base rather than recruiting other people into the scheme - at the end of the day they would end up in direct competition with you for customers. Of course there may be a problem with this if there is any requirement to recruit new distributors.

    One final thing to remember about this residual income is that it is entirely dependent upon something which is outside of your control - that is the service offered by Telecomplus. If they do a crap job then customers will leave and you will lose your commission.


    Also remember you would be an Independent Distributor i.e. self employed so any earnings are before tax.



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