Hello Mould and everyone else - still wrestling with Form N244 (application notice). So many things I just don't 'get'. Sorry to be so dim, but... the Small Claims is meant for lay people, yet there's so much knowledge needed at every turn that simply isn't obvious, and I don't seem to be able to find out by googling etc. The CPR rules confuse me more than clarifying. Summary: I was advised by court staff to fill in a Form N244 because I need to change my counterclaim against window fitters. This is because one window has now developed cracks that let in cold air from outside - can even see light shining through (makes the double glazing rather pointless). Some other problems came out after filing counterclaim, to do with fitting (not well sealed - noise levels from outside indicate insufficient insulation). Because we were only given a very short deadline to file all the documents, the date given on the order for serving documents etc also needs to be changed, because getting the relevant three quotes will take ages (people don't like quoting when they hear 'court case'). Which brings up another thing I am fretting about: the Order is dated 1st March. It says 'any party may apply within 7 days ... to be set aside or varied'. But we only received the letter (date stamped 13th March) on the 15th. So... when did the count start for those 7 days? and does that affect the request to change the counterclaim? I'll paste in further down what I've written so far to ask for varying the order. But first here are other points from that form which I just can't work out and have been fretting over all afternoon: 4. 'have you attached a draft of the order you are applying for' - I've said 'no' because I have no draft. Is this question meant for solicitors? 5. 'How do you want this application dealt with' - it offers 'hearing' or 'without a hearing' - I don't want a hearing but I don't know whether the situation requires a hearing. Is it ok to tick 'no hearing'? 8. 'what level of judge does your hearing need' - I don't know! The Order we got is by a District Judge - should I fill in 'District Judge' or say 'I don't know', or something else? 9. 'Who should be served with this application' - no help from guidance notes: how do I answer this one?? I have no idea... I guess the Claimant, but what if I'm wrong? 10. 'What information will you be relying on, in support of your application: attached witness statement/statement of case/evidence set out in the box below' (there is a big box). I don't really understand what Statement of Case is. I have no evidence so far other than my observation that there are gaps opening up in the joints of the window and that I can dig several fingers into a hollow underneath the sill where there is only cold air, no expanding foam (can't look in, is obscured). Is that something I should just write up in the box? The key point of the form is Number 3.: 'what order are you asking the court to make and why'. Here is what I have written: "We are respectfully requesting the Court’s leave to amend our Counterclaim against XXXX. The reason for this request: we have recently found further significant problems with regard to the windows built and fitted by the Claimant and his employees. Specifically, gaps have opened in the joints of one of the windows, i.e. this window is not sealing the room against the outside; cold air is entering the room. We have also since found further indications that the fitting of the windows in question was even more poorly executed than first suspected. For these reasons, additional quotes from appropriate companies will need to be sought. This is to - Help identify and specify faults in the fitting and construction of the windows - Adjust the monetary value of the Counterclaim. As we have found when previously seeking quotes that companies may refuse to quote due to the legal dispute aspect, it may take longer to obtain suitable quotes than usual. In support of the request to amend our Counterclaim, we therefore respectfully ask that the Court vary the Order given on 1st March 2013 accordingly, to allow for extensions of all deadlines mentioned in the Order, as appropriate" I would be so grateful for any help with this. I feel really stupid, and it's so important to get it right. Great to know there's some people more clued up than I am. Appreciatively, Sue

Thank you so much for citing these specific rules and directions. I'll try and plough through everything you've mentioned, and hope it'll make sense. Really appreciate the input, now at least I've got a starting point for filling in the form. Good to know about filing by e-mail too (haven't checked the details on that yet but it sounds like it'll be ok, which should save a couple of days). Best wishes, Sue

Thank you, Andy! I've got form N244 printed out now... another hornets nest of things I don't understand. The form asks "what order are you asking the court to make and why?" Your mail mentions CPR Practice Directions. I find the CPR rules incredibly difficult to understand/disentangle. - How do I start to find out which rules and/or directions apply? - I want to ask for more time so I can get fresh quotes, because one window has now developed those cracks. Feeling completely helpless in the face of all this stuff. What would you advise for the best? Thank you, Suse Also, the Notes state "most applications will require a hearing" - would that apply here? A hearing before a hearing? Really sorry that yet again every answer seems to produce more questions. Bear with me? Very appreciative, Sue

Thank you so much for the quick reply. Could you say, or post a link, re how to get that permission/do an amendment? Not that I think we'd ever see that money, but it's worth changing the counterclaim to show the court how poor the workmanship is. Anxiously Sue

Hello again Andies and everyone else. Re-cap: defending/counterclaiming against cowboy builders who fitted windows very badly, so we withheld 10% of final bill, pending repairs to the mess. Since last post 2 months ago, have been waiting to hear from the court. Received Order just this Saturday, 16 days after Order date - which leaves us 10 days to comply with the Order. Which includes 'delivering' copies of all documents we want to use to the court and to the claimant. I would be really grateful if anyone could tell me: - is 'delivery' in hard copy or is e-mail sufficient? - Can I send it e-mail by the deadline and send a registered hard-copy to arrive the next day? - since I first filed a counter-claim, it turns out there are even more problems with the windows: two seams have opened in one of the frames, so now we have air from outside streaming straight in (= makes the double glazing pointless). Can I add repair cost for this to the counterclaim at this stage, or is the counterclaim fixed? I was so hoping this case would not have to progress to court, i.e. the joinery would give up their in my view totally spurious claim. Instead, now facing loads more stress. Any and all advice would be extremely welcome. I can't believe the small claims system is supposed to be fit for lay persons to cope without help - I feel I could really do with solicitor advice but the risk that costs for a solicitor would not be awarded, plus the extremely high risk that the other side wouldn't pay anyway, makes this impossible (can't afford to lose that sort of money). So I have to shoulder all this stress, and basically fly blind with fingers crossed. I wish I could claim not just for a solicitor and an expert, but for all the distress and time this is costing. Thank you everyone for any experience shared, tips or advice! Sue

Brilliant, thank you Andy! I'll post about any further developments! Sue

Thank you, Andy! That's really helpful. Yes, I did tick 'yes' to A, the Settlement question. Does that mean the court then writes back to us with more instructions regarding time frames? Will they tell us how court mediation works and what to do? The instructions for all the other paperwork are really limited, as you know. I will put something in Section G as per your suggestion, Andy. Should I then wait for further instructions from the court, or should I just go ahead and put together another e-mail (or registered letter) to the claimant? My previous suggestion to the claimant that I had an e-mail from the manufacturer confirming that they used the wrong material (decorators' caulk to fit windows externally, in gaps of up to 2 inches wide (because they also damaged the surrounds) - apparently totally wrong, as prone to speedy deterioriation in exposed places) and that they didn't paint the windows as they had claimed (damning report from Dulux lab, after microscope inspection of paintflake) made no impression on them: they just wrote 'see you in court'. I can't imagine why they have so far insisted on putting themselves and me through this. So any ideas of what else I could say to them to persuade them to let this go would be very welcome. They must know how much re-painting windows costs - that's the cost I am claiming for in the counterclaim, and I thought it was a generous offer to say I'd forego this if they drop their claim. All comments welcome! Thank you, everyone. Sue

Hi Andy, and thanks very much. It was that thread which first brought CAG to my attention! There is a lot of detail about the AQ in this thread, but it doesn't really help me with the section I need. It's what is now Section G. It says "information to help the judge to manage or clarify the claim, including any other information you consider should be supplied by the other party". I just can't find any info about what is supposed to go in that box. What I'd like to say is: this is a spurious claim, it has no merit, please stop the process now. But I guess that's what the court case would be about. Also, does anyone have a suggestion what kind of documents I could ask for from the claimant? I just have no idea whether in this case there are things that should be disclosed which could help me, and I don't know how to find out. . Ideally, I'd like to try offering the other side again what I offered before: that I'll drop my counterclaim if they drop their (spurious) claim - so as to save all the time a court case would take. Can I /should I put that in Section G? It's so scary that there could be lots of things I need to know that could change the course of this case but which I just don't know because the CPR rules are so difficult to understand (surely they aren't meant for lay people?) and take so much time, and I just have no experience. Grateful for any advice at all on this. Cheers, Sue

That's very kiind; it would be great to learn more. Suse

Hello again! Story so far: defending/counterclaiming against cowboy builders who fitted windows so badly we withheld 10% of final bill, pending repairs to the mess. Got all forms off safely so far. Now it's time for the Allocation Questionnaire. Seems straightforward. But one question: what is part G, 'Other Information', for? It says 'to help the judge manage or clarify the claim'. Can I put in there that I think the claimant is trying it on and their claim is spurious? If so, is there a way of expressing this in kind of legal-type language? Should I say more than on the counterclaim form about reasons for counterclaiming (sorting out mess will cost more than sum we're being sued for)? Thank you in advance for any pointers! Sue

Hi there - just to say I did file defence/counterclaim today so if anyone was still going to respond to my last questions from this morning, that would be more for general info for others. Really hope this claim won't go much further - eats time and peace like crazy! Thanks for all the help. Sue

Happy New Year! Thank you so much for these most recent replies too! Especially the advice about showing efforts to resolve - made extensive efforts but I would never have thought of putting that in, thought I was limited to responding to/elaborating on the Claimant's particulars of claim. Still, more questions! I thought I'd have the defence/counterclaim filed before the end of the year, worked on this all day Monday. But it's so complex to make sure everything is precise and clear (as Steampowered said, leaving nothing to the judge's imagination), and of course there was other life intervening, so I still haven't filed. So today is my very last chance to get this done within the deadline. Sigh. Brilliant advice in these replies, very helpful. I am counterclaiming because I now know that to rectify the problems will cost more than I withheld from the claimant. I've been trying to find examples of suitable wording for a counterclaim. Any suggestions/samples would be welcome. Are there key phrases one should use in stating the counterclaim? Basically I want to say (with only two poorly worded quotes from builders to show so far) that the money withheld will not even cover rectification of the original complaint (fitting) and that it has since then emerged that the windows themselves need re-painting as the paint work wasn't done properly - which will cost as much again to do and will cause a lot of disruption (e.g. time off work). Also, I just realised I don't even know for sure whether the counterclaim should be for the full sum, or just the difference. I.e. do I counterclaim for the total of what I withheld plus extra cost (painting, loss of earnings) - in this case £1100 plus £1500. Or do I just counterclaim for the additional cost, i.e. £1500? All pointers gratefully received! Cheers, Sue

Thank you - I'll try to go with that unless I find some other info. It's so nice that it's possible to get help here. Still rather at sea, but feeling a lot less seasick Sue

Thank you - can I just clarify, please? If Rule 20.6/76 is the sole provision for the situation, the way I understand it I can only claim a specific amount with my defence/counterclaim and not change this later. Or am I missing something? The language of these CPR rules makes me all confused. Cheers! Suse

Thanks, CitizenB - odd, isn't it? I'm guessing this question can't be so unusual, as other people must have come up against similar situations. Fingers crossed for further information. Cheers! Sue

Hi again, and thanks for all the previous advise. I am now putting together my defence/counterclaim, much reassured by what I've learnt here. Here is a question I haven't been able to find an answer to online so far, and the MCOL helpdesk can't tell me either, they say: Can I change the amount I claim (in my counterclaim) later? Reason for asking: having great difficulties finding anyone who will quote/give estimates for fixing this botched job (joiners are suing because I withheld payment to have the mess they left sorted). Because several builders/decorators looked but would not take it on, I only have two estimates so far, and they don't seem detailed enough to rely on them. Trying to find more estimates/quotes. But I have to file my counterclaim by 2nd Jan latest, so no chance... Maybe I'm just not good at googling, but I couldn't find anything about this question, and I'd be grateful for any links or direct advice. Thanks everyone! Sue

Thank you, both Andys. Or is that Andies? This is all so helpful. It's strange the courts don't provide clearer guidance themselves, given that the MCOL process is aimed at letting people with no legal experience, let alone training, enter disputes without representation. For example, I thought I'd have to provide all the evidence with my counterclaim, in order to show I have a claim at all. Knowing I've got lots more time to gather documentation is really putting my mind at rest. By the way, does anyone have a suggestion how I could persuade the company who sold the filler to say more in writing about wrong use? They've told me on the phone, very clearly: 'completely wrong stuff to use, fitters must have known, it's a decorator's filler for small cracks, if these guys have 30 years experience they will know this'. But the data sheet about this filler could be interpreted differently, poor wording - and judges aren't experts in window fitting. The supplier sent one mail stating only that the joinery should have known it wasn't the right thing; no response to requests for clarification. Which leaves open the option for the joiners to claim ignorance and invoke the data sheet. I guess for the supplier, giving me more clear-cut information in writing is a hassle without visible gain, but could I invoke some point of law to get more info or the manufacturer's name from them? Cheers, everyone - you're all visibly brightening my Christmas, because it won't be so overshadowed by anxiety now!

Thanks for the tips - really welcome. @ CitizenB - yes please, more advice on what a 'part 20 claim' entails would be welcome. @ Raydetinu - The thing about not painting hardwood sills with gloss is a bit of a surprise; nobody has mentioned that before (several people have looked at it). It's been painted like the rest, with a primer, one undercoat, one gloss (all water-based, too thin and poorly prepared according to the lab). @ caro - yes, it'll cost to counterclaim. Unreasonable claimant - might well not pay up, even if told to by a court. I'm counterclaiming so that I can show a lot more evidence - and hoping this may be enough to make them step away - honestly, I'm still surprised they dared to sue. It's worth the fight, because we need the money held back to pay for putting right the mess. But it's also expensive in terms of time, stress and lost work, so I'd prefer 'dropped case' to 'win'.

Thanks, CitizenB, that's really helpful. Is there a big difference between simply defending a claim, and counter-claiming? I'm wondering about the format and formality. Cheers!

Good stuff! @ Raydetinu - Windows are soft wood, with hardwood sills. They have been declared to be of good quality - paintwork not as agreed/poor, fitting awful. - Home insurance doesn't include legal cover. - Correspondence is an issue - after a few e-mails to and fro and our formal invitation to put it right and offering our alternative solution (pay someone else, show bills, pay any balance left from that if any), they wrote another couple of e-mails, then insisted we must do it by phone ('no time to waste on convoluted correspondence') or they'd 'send round the bailiffs'. I said papertrail is crucial as it's a dispute so phone calls inappropriate; next thing from them was the MCOL claim. @ CitizenB - Northampton gave conflicting advice in two different phone calls, so I'll have to go with the most cautious approach and file before the end of the year. - Thanks for the witness guidance notes - really useful document. - Sample defence document is good to have - thanks for that. It's front page only - does the rest follow the form N9B(CPC) for defence/counterclaim that was sent by post? - I probably will have to file scanned documents by e-mail - report re paint, various e-mails from builders/advice I've had etc plus account of events will probably exceed 8000 words. Plus I had a bad experience on another government website (student loan for son) where log-out while hanging on the phone for advice = 'claim filed', then lots of complications to sort that out. So I'm much more confident filing by e-mail. It's reassuring to see there's routes through the legal jungle and friendly people helping point out signposts

Thanks for the such quick repsonses! @ CitizenB - No trade body! - lesson learnt... - Apparently we have until 1. January to do the defence/counterclaim - not much chance of getting more quotes or other evidence in over that period, I think. The total claim is £1100, 10% of what we paid them already. From what I have been told, it'll cost about £2000-2500 to put everything right so that's what we're hoping to counterclaim for (although we suspect the other side would not pay, if it came to it). @Andy: Any suggestion of where would I find simple info on how to lay out the documents for the court, as you suggested? There's been difficulty with getting evidence. If we could afford a surveyor it would be easy (just had to do that for work, very effective - but far too expensive in this case). We have some evidence (middling-quality photos, paint report, report from a builder friend) but only one quote so far as several people said they wouldn't even consider the job because it's such a mess. Understandably, they won't put that in writing! And the company who provided the filler is also unhelpful, unfortunately. They have told me on the phone that this is the wrong stuff to use for window fitting (it's an acrylic decorator's filler) and that it will quickly deteriorate. But the only e-mail they sent was ambiguous and their own data sheet contains a sentence that implies the filler can be used on exterior windows - the other side have made reference to this. So although everyone including the seller has said 'wrong stuff', we are struggling to show something official that is demonstrates this filler was the wrong product and will cause problems. The seller is not responding to e-mails asking for more details - in writing they have only said "they should have known this is not the product to use". What else can I do to demonstrate this? This product is packaged and sold by the seller, but made by another company - I have asked unsuccessfully for the manufacturer's details both by phone and by e-mail, they just won't tell me who this is. Thank you all for all input! Sue

Hello everone, There are so many really useful threads on here, I've already learnt loads and feeling a lot less anxious. So I've signed up, in the hope that I can get some advice that's specific to my situation. Which is a lot less awful than some of the hair-raising stories I've read - but still causing me a lot of anxiety. I'd appreciate advice, and/or where to post about this issue. So glad I found this website. Basically: joiners built and fitted windows. Windows ok, paint and fitting very poor. We raised concerns with them at the time, they lied about the paint ( it's possible to have it checked: manufacturers have a lab for this ), they promised all would be well with other concerns. When they left, I could see they had not done a good job at all, including key concerns I'd raised with them. Another joiner looked at the job afterwards - said "it looks like a child's done it". Several other concerns too. So we made a goodwill payment of a third of the outstanding fitting cost (had paid for windows in full already), withheld the rest, and suggested we get the problems left behind sorted out, present them with all bills, and pay them any balance remaining. Long story short... they filed a MoneyClaim Online claim against us (amounts to 10% of what we've paid, including the windows). We have already filed an Acknowledgement of Service, indicating defence/counterclaim, but now we need to put together evidence to show why. So many questions on how best to do that - it seems so important to have 'legalese' lingo. It's Small Claims/MCOL and I can't afford to appoint a solicitor or even a surveyor. There's other fiddly aspects too, such as difficulties getting quotes - because the job is so messy to sort out. So: 'nice to meet you all', and if I could get a bit of help about this, or where to post more details, I'd be grateful. It's spoiling the Christmas Season, having to deal with this instead of cards and prezzies. Cheers, Suse