Thank you for your responses.

Hello. Looking for some advice on unfair B2B contracts. I know this is a consumer site, but hopefully looking for some discussion / collaboration as I know I'm not the only one in this situation. I invited a salesman from a well known HR company to come and discuss being our HR department. I did this after attending one of their seminars, which they told me as an employer, I could face all sorts and levels of costs if there was an employee giving problems. I discussed the contract with the salesman on my premises, in front of a witness and he told me that if I changed my mind after signing, I could cancel at any time, giving 6 months notice in writing. As I was new to this and not experienced in HR matters myself, I agreed on the basis that if it all went wrong, I would only be liable for 6 mths of payments. I thought this fair and reasonable. After a good meeting, jovial exchanges and of course the understanding of the 6 mth thing that he said was in the contract, I signed. The contract was tucked away in a presentation folder by him and handed to me with lots of leaflets to read. What I actually signed had small print saying that there was no provision for early termination of what was a 5 yr contract. I found this out 2 yrs after signing! Obviously I am a trusting person, but I don't expect to be sold something that I haven't been sold, if that makes sense. The service provided thereon has been frustrating, shocking and not as described / presented in the seminar. When I did have problems, my confidence in their advice has been zero and I used a local Employment lawyer at a fraction of the cost. It can be best described like this: 1. I sell you a contract and explain verbally that for the next five years I will make you a cup of tea whenever you like. I will make sure it has just the right amount of milk and sugar and strength to your liking. I tell you (in order to get you to sign and earn my commission) that if you don't like my tea making services, or if you go off tea, or for some medical reason can't drink tea anymore, you can cancel at any time by giving me six months notice in writing. 2. You sign a completely different contract with no provision for early termination. 3. I then, after you have signed, tell you where you can buy a kettle, cups, cutlery, milk, tea bags and sugar. I give you written instructions on how to make the tea. Neither myself or any of my team will actually come and make the tea for you. 4. You try to cancel - I employ corporate bullying tactics that force you to pay for 5 yrs. 5. You can cancel, by giving notice not later than 6 mths before the 5 yrs is up. If you are a day late cancelling, I automatically renew your contract for 5yrs without consultation. My questions are: 1. To what extent is a verbal discussion valid as part of the contract you signed, even if the verbal sale was lies in order to get you to sign and you weren't given the chance to read it fully before signing because you trusted the person selling? 2. Is it unfair to insist one still owes money for 5 yrs when I (the HR company) haven't delivered what was promised and gave shoddy advice and forced you to go elsewhere in order to get things sorted? I won't be naming the company involved but judging by the reviews on them on the net, it wouldn't be too difficult to guess who they were. So if you have guessed, please don't mention their name. (He who must not be named!) PS I have cancelled my contract in writing and paid 6 mths of payments and not used the companys services for the last 12 mths as its not up to scratch. Thank you x

Apologies for taking so long to update readers of this thread. By doing so now I hope to restore faith in the legal routes available to us and to those reading this who have a similar problem. I know I was searching for this when I first was having problems, so if reading this helps, then I am very happy. Following about £1000 in court fees, legal costs etc I got a favourable result via a cheque from my solicitor covering the cost of the Range Rover, legal costs and interest. This cheque was given to me in October 2012 - sorry to not update this thread sooner! It took an application to the court, from which I was granted Judgement by Default and then an enforcement via a personal visit to the car dealers premises by a High Court Enforcement Officer to get my money back. But it worked. Then, the car dealer in question, after paying up, then decided to challenge it by making an application to the court to move the hearing that had already taken place. Their reason being that they knew nothing about this until the visit by the HCEO, yet in the same sentence on the paperwork then said they had actually filed a 'valid defence'. YOU DECIDE! The court gave them 7 days to duplicate evidence of this defence, which they then failed to do so. Apparently it is quite common, having got money from someone via the High Court, that it is then challenged back to the court, which is worth bearing in mind if you are taking this route. Document as much as you can and give the other parties a fair chance to put things right - I gave them about six months to put it right! My solicitor was invaluable in the outcome of this case - I could have done it without her, but being so busy (I run my own company) I was unable to dedicate the time and often felt like I didn't know what the best thing to do next was. I am obviously very pleased with this outcome. If anyone has any questions at all regarding this, please feel free to ask - I would be very happy to help if I can. Reading this forum has helped a lot, so thank you to the site owners. Good luck! x

@popeyethesailortam - I don't have the vehicle, trader picked it up to fix it in January, failed to fix it, said he would try again and call me the next day, never called me or returned the vehicle to me. That was January, this is JULY! Also worth noting, this vehicle was never registered to me at DVLA, which they promised they had done when I bought it. I asked DVLA who couldn't tell me who is the registered keeper, but was able to verify and confirm that it was definitely not myself.

Hello everyone and thank you for continuing to take an interest. This is not a small claims - currently its in excess of £6K and so has not gone through the small claims (I think, actually my solicitors are dealing with it now). I did try to get the seller to fix it, but they were incapable of doing so and became aggressive to deal with. As a female who has to deal with most things by myself, I shy from bargy men with aggressive complexes. They have though invested quite a lot of time and money in their public image, I don't believe they would disappear easily or quickly. Which doesn't fail to surprise me as to why they are not dealing with it. I will keep the forum posted with goings on in case anyone else has the same issues in the future as it can be quite comforting to read what others have to say on the matter. I am lucky that I can wait for the money and have another vehicle to use in the meantime. Slow process but I am not giving up!

Does this apply if they are a Ltd company?

Hello everyone, to update - its gone to court and they have not responded, now I have been granted Judgement by Default in my favour. What is likely to happen next? They have received notification that its time to pay up.

@oddjobbob - but if they were any good then they would have fixed it properly when they had it, no? Is it my job to tell them to do more than charge the battery? TS told me to give them the chance to fix and I have. The fact that they couldn't be bothered but pretended to, actually strengthens my case. Their last words to me were that they would fix it and respond by 10.30am the next day to let me know if it was fixable or not and of course I have not heard from them since. I really do not trust them now at all to change a wheel let alone take a moment to care and look into the problem and fix it. I think they have shown they are incapable, which angers me even further. Why operate a business that appears to be 'out there' 'revolutionary' and above all, 'trustworthy' and then in practice, just behave like a bunch of amateurs? You are right though, they shouldn't be selling cars. I run my own business and I would not dream of behaving in this way to my clients. If it was a £500 car then I would have taken it down the scrap yard, but as this one cost over 10 times that, I need my money back! Repair, Replace, Refund. As they don't have a like for like vehicle to offer me (and they haven't even bothered to communicate let alone fall in line with the law) I think I am entitled to it, however long it takes. /rant

They have had 3 chances to fix the car, the first 2 they refused to take it in themselves and authorised my mechanic to do it. The third time I believe they didn't even look at the car apart from charge up the battery.

The car is now with them and it can stay there! Not interested a) in an unreliable vehicle and b) in doing business with a bunch of mouthy liars who fool people into thinking that they really are the exception when it comes to used car dealers. It's a disgrace.

Sorry, been a while, but back to update. TS told me to give them another chance to fix it, themselves, which I did. Was phoned last week to say it was ready (5 days they had it for) and when I asked what was wrong, they said, don't drive round all the time with the air suspension on the highest setting. They must think I am stupid. Of course I didn't drive around with pumped up wheels. Oh and also I was told to be careful about leaving lights on in the car. Like the dumbo I am. (Not). But when I went to pick it up it was evident that all they had done was charge the battery as the alarm went off when trying to open doors that weren't locked but the car thought they were locked, but hey, no sound from the horn. Funny that but I had disconnected it early December because the thing kept going off in the middle of the night! I asked the seller, come and tell me if I am doing anything wrong with this car? He had the same problems, not locking, then only locking off the key but thinking it was still open, leaving interior lights on. He tried to start it, and it struggled to start because of a power problem. I asked him, sound the horn. Of course it wouldn't have and didn't make a noise. After the seller giving me the reassurance that two diagnostic chaps had verified the vehicle without problems, I really fail to see how they both didn't see that the horn was disconnected. Well I do actually, because I believe the seller is full of lies and no one even looked at it, apart from the person in charge of charging batteries. The plus side is that the vehicle is now on their premises, they promised to look at it again and get back to me immediately, but of course another 2 days of ignoring me is fine by them. On advice now from TS, I have now sent the LBA and will be filing for the court settlement by next Wednesday, if I have not received a refund.

I have received a letter from the sellers lawyers saying that I am not entitled to reject the vehicle. They also say that I should return the vehicle to them at my own convenience so that they can fix it. I still wish to reject the vehicle so should I stand my ground? Almost a month now with no car. This is the first time they have responded and its only after me phoning them this week in an attempt to plead to their better side. Thanks. I will obviously call TS tommorrow also.

@sailorsam - thank you for the link. I will wait a little for the time to pass after they have received the LBA and then press the go button for the court claim. Thank you again to everyone for responding and happy new year to you all!

Firstly thank you for all the replies - getting so many responses is just what I wanted to thrash this out! @sailorsam All repair costs have now been refunded except the final diagnostic test £30 and towing £30 ish which I am not bothered about. Car is parked on my driveway (well outside my house as we are rebuilding the drive) and has not been used as it has no power since 8 December. I have issued a LBA. @grahamengineering I have considered this to be a fault of the mechanic, but this is a different problem now - the BECM I have been told, this third problem is when I have rejected it. @conniff I agree but the sellers attitude has always been friendly, trustworthy and I had no cause for any concern or to request written communications. Trading Standards say my advantage is that my PA has also spoken to them and is involved in the communications which will help enormously in claiming costs of repairs. As the seller has now paid this, the verbal communications to date don't bother me too much, but I am going legal because they are not dealing with the refund issue, just fobbing us off with excuses that they are busy, will call back, don't call back etc. @sailorsam From the outset the seller suggested I use my warranty which didn't cover the repairs needed so the seller advised me to fix and he would pay, which he has done. @grahamengineering It is a murky world of mechanics it seems BUT I have had several vehicles go through my mechanic over the years and he has never given me any cause for concern over his knowledge and abilities.

On 12 November 2011, I bought a Range Rover from an upcoming used car sales dealer in the Midlands. It has always been my dream to own a Range Rover and over the last 5 years I have worked hard and saved money to buy such a vehicle. The car was sold with a 3 month warranty, 12 month MOT and a full service. The car is a 1999 model. Vehicle was delivered on 12 November and paid for with my Visa Debit Card direct from my account as I had saved up the money for it. On approximately 17 November 2011 the vehicle failed to start. I telephoned the dealer, and asked them to come and collect it to sort it out, but he said I should fix it locally so I also phoned the warranty company. I was told by the dealer to diagnose the fault and report back to the warranty company. The fault of a fuel pump failure was not covered by the warranty given. I telephoned the dealer who said that if the warranty did not cover it then he would pay and claim back on his traders warranty and advised me to get my local mechanic to get the problem fixed and call him when it was time to pay. He even went on to say that he was not impressed with the warranty company, not covering faults that he believed should be covered and that if it wasn't covered then he would ditch them as he spends over £8000 a month with them. If he had not given me this long winded promise, I would not have proceeded. On his instructions, I got my local mechanic to carry out the work but when it was time to pay and collect the vehicle the dealer did not answer his phone after numerous attempts to try and reach him. I have a long standing relationship with my own mechanic, he has been our only mechanic for at least seven years. The last thing I wish for is to expect him to do work and not get paid. As the dealer had agreed over the phone to both myself and my Personal Assistant, we trusted him and paid £588.66 on 23 November 2011 from my own funds, expecting, knowing and trusting that the dealer would honour his promise to pay me for this work. The vehicle worked fine for approximately 7 days when it developed a further fault and the vehicle failed to start. I telephoned the dealer again and I inspected the details of the warranty which did not cover the fault, which was diagnosed as heater plugs by my mechanic. This time my PA was told by the dealer to not worry, get the thing sorted and they would pay for it. If the dealer had not given my PA this promise, I would not have proceeded. On his instructions, I got my local mechanic, to carry out the work. As the dealer had already convinced both my PA and I that he would pay for it, again I paid £199.58 on 5 December 2011 from my own funds. After a few days the vehicle has failed to start as it had no power, doors failing to lock, interior lights staying on and alarm going off at night for no reason. I went back to my mechanics who could not find the problem by plugging in the diagnostic computer but suggested that a new BECM would need to be installed at a cost of around £900 plus VAT. As I had now run out of money, waiting for the dealer to refund me, I spoke to his colleague (also a director) about the problems. He told me that he knew nothing about it, also claiming not to even know which vehicle I had purchased. He asked me to email the costs so that he could discuss it with his team. This I did on 8 December 2011. I have reported this new fault to the dealer by telephone and he finally offered to get his guys to look at it. I told him on 9 December that I am now fed up and wish to return the vehicle. He said he would organise this for me - again maintaining his friendly composure, giving me confidence that I can still trust him. As a last resort I got another company as a second opinion to diagnose the problem. As the battery was flat and had to be towed into this company any fault that had occurred electronically had been wiped from the computer. Again this garage suspects a problem with the main brain of the vehicle. On 14 December, during a telephone call (which took over 5 or 6 attempts to get through) the dealer had assured me that the sum of £830.24 has been credited to my bank account and will be in my account on Friday 16 December 2011. To be fair, this amount has now been refunded to me as they said they would. But I have now told them I wish to reject the vehicle and refund my money as it is clearly not fit for purpose. I have done this with advice from Trading Standards and the 7 days I gave them has passed. I have now issued another letter (both recorded delivery etc) to say that I will take court action. I am extremely frustrated as I have had to cancel trips for the New Year as I have no vehicle which will fit the whole family in, let alone all the other running around I am supposed to be doing, including looking after my elderly parents. My case is hopefully not complicated, but I did want to ask (as I am failing to find) about court cases and outcomes of those cases. Does anyone have any news or references of legal cases between consumers and car dealers such as this going to court? The dealers are just ignoring me now so have left me with no option but to go to court. I can't even buy another car to use as my money is sat on my driveway. Thank you in advance for reading.