dx Could you do me a link to the spreadsheet you mention? I cant seem to find one. Also, when you say an average of all the premiums, do I include the months where the ppi was zero? i.e. when the account was in credit? I am only missing the initial 7 months of statements from 1999 when the card limit was only £1,000, and it wasn't maxxed. My first statement from Jan 2000 shows ppi of £6.68, so all of the earlier months would have been less than this. I think an average of all the premiums I have available would be much higher than this, and this would have been impossible with a credit limit of only £1,000. MP.

Sorry for the delay, but here goes: I found some more statements from 2000, so i'm only missing about 6 months worth now from 1999. The total of all the premiums from the statements I have comes to £1754, and that is without any interest added on top, so they have clearly tried to diddle me like I thought. They haven't given me an acceptance form to sign, and the cheque for what they offered arrived today. Can I bank it and accept it as a partial settlement only, then go after the rest? MP.

Perhaps they thought the account had been settled correctly with it not being their account initially? Will do some digging around online to see if there are any similar cases. Will get back tomorrow night with figures from statements. Thanks for advice ims21. MP.

This was back in May 2010. Have the regs changed? They say refund was made up of premiums + compound interest + 8% simple interest as in line with FOS. Definitely up to date of claim. Thats not what the FOS website says now? Confused!!! MP.

No, it was defaulted like this one. All of my credit accounts defaulted in 2007/2008 when I entered into my DMP. The only difference was that the original creditor Morgan Stanley had sold its portfolio to Goldfish which was then sold to Barclaycard. But the account was actually sold off to a DCA when the account was still with Goldfish. I chased Barclaycard and they paid up, right up to the date at the time. MP.

But I thought that you always claimed up to the current date? Thats what happened when I reclaimed from Barclaycard for my old Morgan Stanley card. MP.

Thanks again. I'll go through the statements tomorrow night and get back. I think the interest rate ranged from 14.9% to 19.9% over the years, but would have to double check. If I paid £50 a month ppi around 2006/2007, what would the contractual interest be approx on that now? What do you make of them saying that they only have to refund up to the time of the default? MP.

Thanks for getting back quick ims21. Have got statements from 2001 to 2008, when the account defaulted from my SAR. Nothing from 1999 or 2000, but card limit was only £1,000 then so premiums wouldn't have been much. They are up in the loft, so i'll get them down in the morning and go through them after work tomorrow. I think the 18 pence interest is for the credit balance you mention. The covering letter says that the refund of premiums also includes interest, but doesn't say how much of it is interest. I don't think they have included it though because they have auto deducted 4 pence income tax from the credit interest, but nothing from there. No mention of any interest rate on the card or anything! MP.

Finally, an update!!! Well after years of trying to get this sorted, finally Lloyds TSB (or Lloyds bank as they are now known as again), have agreed that the PPI was mis-sold and have offered a refund. However, as per normal Lloyds antics, their offer of compensation seems way short of what I was expecting. I'm about to start the process of going through all my statements and totting up all the premiums, but even without the figures, their offer seems low. They have sent lots of explanations on how they have calculated the refund, but it doesn't look right. Background info: Card opened in 1999, and defaulted in 2008. Card often up to limit and PPI premiums ranged from a few quid to £60 a month. I would say an average payment would be around £30. Balance around £6,000 when sold to DCA. The refund is made up of: Refund of premiums £1250 Interest at 8% calculated to date of default £0.18 (yes 18 pence!) (less interest of 4 pence!) Other losses £36 Additional compensation for distress £250 They say that they are only required to refund from the date of default, not today's date. Is this correct? I've claimed back PPI on another Morgan Stanley credit card before and was given a lot more than this including full proper 8% interest, so i'm confused. I knew they wouldn't refund interest in restitution at this point, but thought the offer would be higher. Any thoughts would be helpful. MP.

The main reason it is unenforceable is a lack of original t's and c's. The terms on the application form are incomplete and the other copies sent by LTSB in Section 78 request, and later SAR request, are not the originals and are only varied copies. LTSB no longer have the originals, and this is confirmed in internal notes received in SAR. No original terms = unenforceable in court. Also, there is no reference to the ppi t's and c's on the application form, only a small paragraph on the reverse. Nothing containing prescribed terms is mentioned. The addition of the ppi makes the application form/agreement a multiple agreement because it is made up of 2 different types of credit, - the actual credit card, and the ppi element. Again this is enough to prevent enforcement according to cca 1974. If LTSB have already refunded you, then i'm surprised 1st Credit are taking you to court, especially as you say the 6 year limitation has kicked in. If they are claiming the full defaulted sum, then surely this is made up of your now confirmed mis-sold ppi, and therefore you do not owe it to anyone. They cant argue that you owe it when the balance is made up in part of mis-sold ppi and charges. (Or did LTSB reduce the balance before selling the account) Plus this would make the default notice wrong because the defaulted balance included the ppi. They would need an accurate default balance to pursue it. As for your charges, get a claim in direct to LTSB. They refunded mine without too much of a problem and I got over £300 back which reduced the balance of the account a little. Its the PPI LTSB are stalling over with me. You say the FOS ruled in your favor, did they give reasons? They rejected mine mainly because the ppi tick box is within the "optional features" section of the application form, even though it was the sales adviser that filled out the form for me. I was only told where to sign at the bottom of the page. Like I said previously, this has been simmering for me for a while now and i've been letting it lie. I've been busy reclaiming another ppi from an old LTSB loan which surfaced through my SAR, which is now seeing some progress at last. My only option left for this credit card account is court action, so I need to research properly before starting out. The increase in small claims limit will mean I can use this route and not be liable for their costs, though I will probably recruit a local solicitor to assist. Will update the thread as things progress. MP.

Hey Birch, Have yet to hear back from Lloyds regarding this account since I replied to their initial rejection letter. 1st Credit started their tricks again and threatened me with a stat demand if I never paid up. They received a heavily worded reply pointing out their mistakes and I haven't heard back from them since December when I threatened to take them to Court for harassment over a disputed debt. Although there is an application form type agreement, the t's and c's are u/s, so they cant pursue it. Plus the PPI has no t's and c's altogether on the application form, if using the multiple agreement argument as a defense. Have been playing the waiting game with this one to see who moves first as the account will become statue barred at the beginning of next year. Plus I'm waiting until the small claims limit increases to £10,000 before I make a move with Lloyds. Sorry to hear 1st Crud are taking yours to Court. Have they issued papers yet? What was Lloyds response to the PPI? MP.

Just a quick update on this: Lloyds TSB reinvestigated this complaint after my initial letter. They seem to have forgot that they have already investigated once before, with no mention of earlier complaint. Anyway, they have again rejected the complaint , replying with one of their standard generic letters. Have now replied with a four page letter challenging all of their reasons for rejecting and awaiting their response. If knocked back again will follow up with LBA, then Court. 1st credit have been sniffing around again too so need to get this sorted as they say they wony hold the account any longer! MP.

But what if I dispute the debt because of the PPI? If the PPI was refunded, then the debt would not exist. MP.

No reply from Lloyds so far from my prelim letter. Have had another letter from 1st Credit though, so Lloyds must have passed the letter on. They state that all disputes regarding the account were settled in 2009 and to pay up now!!! Er, no they weren't because LTSB haven't refunded the ppi back or sent a valid CCA!!! Time to get LBA sent out I think. One question, I sent the prelim letter to their Consumer Debt Recovery team in Brighton, would it be better to send to the insurance team instead? MP.

Hows it going Madge? Have you heard anything else yet? MP.

No, never did the FOS questionnaire with this one. Complained directly to Lloyds collections dept in Brighton, who then transfered it to the LTSB Insurance team. MP.

As an aside, does a Notice of Assignment need to be sent recorded delivery? MP.

Right, thanks dx. I'll start drafting up a new letter to LTSB. Is it wise to include a SOC with the letter or wait for them to reply first? They have only sent statements back from 2000 until default in 2008 with the SAR, but none from 1999. Haven't totting up the amounts yet, but it will be quite a sum with interest on top. Out of interest, how did your case go, or is it still ongoing? Did you end up going to court? MP.

The account has been passed around 6 DCA's up to now, plus Lloyds internal collections. Iqor, Wescot, Allied, Robinson Way to name a few. All returned to Lloyds when I reminded them of the disputes. 1st Credit are the only one's to have purchased the account though. This is the only NoA received so far. I have a copy (poor quality) of the original application form, filled out by their sales advisor, with me only signing and dating the bottom. PPI box ticked by the advisor also. Original terms and conditions were on the reserve, but are unreadable and missing the key prescribed info. PPI terms and conditions were sent out to me some 4 month after the account started and after the initial cooling off period without penalty had elasped for cancelling. I still have the original copy of these from 1999, but Lloyds no longer have a copy of them. (Or at least they never sent them in the SAR). I argued with the FOS that this also amounted to misselling as I wasn't given all the required info when I signed the agreement, and wasn't aware that I could actually cancel the ppi. They said that when they eventually arrived I should have realised then, but TBA I never actually read through them fully with it being so long after the sale. Plus I wasn't expecting to have been diddled by the bank anyway when they had said the ppi was compulsory, so never even gave it a thought! Just filed them away. MP.

Hi, Its not Wescott now, they were defeated a while back. 1st Credit have now bought the account according to notice of assignment. Not told them anything about the initial ppi sale yet, only got the letter this morning. Will get an account in dispute letter drafted to them tonight. As for Lloyds and the ppi, given that the FOS rejected my complaint, do I dive straight in and file a Court claim, or do I go down the prelim, LBA then Court route? You dont have a link to the similar case do you? What was the outcome on that one? MP.

Hi Madge, Sorry for not replying sooner, but been busy with other things at home. I've not started a claim yet, but I did send another letter to MBNA rejecting their offer. The letter was along the lines of the one you advised me to send. Received a reply last week stating that their position wouldn't alter and that they would only communicate further if instructed by the FOS, so it looks like its off to Court with this for me too. Have got a lot of things going on at the moment, so will need to shelve this for a month or two, but I will get the claim sent off as quickly as possible. How is your claim going? MP.

Had put this on the back burner due to other commitments, but need some advice here please. I've just received a notice of assignment letter from Lloyds and 1st Credit ltd which states that the account has been "assigned in all of its respective rights, title and interest" to 1st Credit. The letter also includes a standard 1st Credit introduction letter asking for the balance in full etc. Now I know 1st credit can be aggressive as i've had dealings with them in the past, so what is my best option now? The account is still in serious dispute with Lloyds for the ppi and not having a valid cca or original t's and c's, so can they legally sell it on? Also, who do I now chase the ppi for, as the letter seems to state that 1st Credit are responsible for all such enquiries? Thanks in advance, MP.

How do you think the best way to go about this is then? As already stated earlier in the thread, LTSB have already rejected my initial PPI claim, as have the FOS, with the main reason being that the application form stated the ppi was optional. (Even though I never filled it out, the sales adviser did). Do you think a fresh prelim letter to LTSB along with a SOC, then following up with an LBA? My concern with this is that it will be well over the £5,000 small claims limit, so i'll be liable for costs if I lose. MP.

Well, after many months I finnally have all my SAR documents, all 750 or so pages of it!!! Most interesting reading I must say. Looks like this account will run into the tens of thousands of ppi refund if I am correct and subsequently successful as the account was started in 1999. It also turns out that they have officially written the account off in October 2011 citing "unenforceable CCA" as the reason. This seems to back up the fact that I haven't heard anything from either LTSB or any DCA this year. So now that question: Do I let sleeping dogs lie or go for the ppi? I've not done any full calculations yet, but I rekon that they owe me at least double the outstanding balance on the account. In another twist, I've also found ppi on a loan I took out in 1998, yet I thought it did not have it attached. Obviously added it without my knowledge! No CCA or anything, just screen printouts from when the loan was approved entitled "fixed term loan with insurance". I feel another letter coming on!!!!!!!!! MP.

The contract only states that all staff meetings/training sessions are compulsory. It does not specify the time at which they are held.