Hi All Just in case you can't be bothered to scroll through my ramble and confusion of my thread that is called A very clever Landlord - have a look at the last post!!! It has notes. THANKS to ALL!!!!!

Hello All I was at court today and I WON my counterclaim for non-compliance of section 213(5)! The LL not giving me the prescribed information!!!!!!! He said he had only warded one other tenant since feb 2007 / the beginning of the Law. So maybe this will be useful for many uncertain of whether they can claim. It maybe the first claim for 213(5) that has succeeded since Gladhurst and Potts and it opens up a route that is obviously a way that succeeds for the tenant, and allows Landlords to be aware that they have to do the 'dual compliance' or none at all and take a chance! But we all know that those LL's who do not deposit the monies into a scheme can still comply right up to the date of the hearing to comply to both. POINTS The LL had placed my deposit in DPS during the tenancy I did actually counterclaim claim after the tenancy had ended LL failed to give FULL prescribed information (he didn't give me the tenants ID number by the hearing date, so what he had given me previously was deemed useless) I will post the court order when it comes through so it will help others on this great site! I wish to thanks so many on here, especially Ed999 who painstakingly wrote down facts of the LAW that was immensly useful! YOU ARE A STAR Ed999! If anyone needs more info prior to me posting the court order I will be very happy to help! Use my notes and Ed999's to help out if you have a similar scenario. I will make a donation to this site soon as it is so worth it!!!! THANKS

Ed999, or anyone else that maybe interested - I would love a response I have worked on your guidance Ed999, and have made some notes that I can use and read from whilst in the hearing. It is not evidence. Its so I do not get tongue tied and confused. Please see my notes and anything I have wrong or ommitted, I would greatly appreciate these points. Here goes....... GLADEHURST PROPERTIES LIMITED v FARID HASHEMI (ON BEHALF OF HIMSELF AND MATTHEW JOHNSON) Gladehurst case is strictly, the only authority in a case of non-protection. Majority of the deposit was returned to the tenant prior to the counterclaim Did not consider 213(5) as the deposit was never protected “Gladehurst has never complied with the initial requirements or with s.213(6)(a) and cannot now do so” So ‘Gladhurst’, is not an authority on a section 213(5) claim. TIENSIA v VISION ENTERPRISES LTD Tiensia is a valid authority in a case of late protection, as the deposit was protected after tenancy had ended, but before the hearing. No claim under section 213(5) was made in Tiensia, either, or the judgement did not depend on the point “This interpretation was supported by the language of section 214(2)(a), which used the phrases 'have not' and 'has not', a tense showing that the focus of relevant interest was whether or not the landlord was in breach by the time of the hearing (or possibly by that of the issue of the tenant's application, although in the post-judgment discussion Judge Ellis said that he regarded the hearing date as the relevant one).” So ‘Tiensia’, too, is not an authority on a section 213(5) claim. POTTS v DENSLEY The High Court had previously decided, in Potts, that the tenant can win a claim under section 213(5) if the landlord fails to provide the prescribed information, even where the deposit is actually protected or not. “Unusually in this case, the deposit was paid late, and after Miss Potts had given notice of termination of the tenancy” “The penalty must follow any breach. However, applying Tiensia it was held that it was possible for the former landlord to comply with the requirements of the Act right up to the date of the hearing. Even where the tenancy had ended, the former landlord was still ‘landlord’ for the purposes of the Act and remained obliged to comply with its provisions and subject to the penalties therein. As the landlords had eventually complied with the Act, they had a complete defence to the claim” “The second issue raised is whether the judge erred in failing to deal with the issue of prescribed information. The Appellant says she erred, because a claim was made in the court below that the prescribed information had not been provided to the Appellant: if the judge had addressed that issue, she would have been bound to impose a sanction on the Respondents for not providing it, as it is common ground they never did so. The Respondents dispute whether such a claim was made; and if it was not, they say it is too late to raise the issue now.” Potts never claimed for 213(5) of the legislation so was never considered So ‘Potts’, too, is not an authority on a section 213(5) claim. DPS (DEPOSIT PROTECTION SCHEME) It clearly states on the DPS that if a tenant does not dispute the LL’s claim for the deposit, it is to be paid to LL within 14 days - the money goes to LL with the “single claim process”. “Single Claim Process - Statutory Declaration a. To use the Single Claim Process, either the Landlord or Tenant who is claiming part or all of the Deposit (the “Claiming Party”) must provide The DPS with a Statutory Declaration at least 14 calendar days after the Tenancy has ended.” (NB Tenant and Landlord is present tense) Therefore I had to claim via the courts as I did not have the “prescribed information” so I could: · Clarify if my deposit was within their scheme by exercising my right to use legislation 213(3) · Stop the LL gaining the full deposit monies by exercising my right to use legislation 213(5) Once the deposit is with DPS: · The LL and Tenant are locked into a ‘continuing agreement as LL & Tenant’ (present tense) making Gladhurst Appeal not relevant to my case · The LL and Tenant wait until the resolved outcome regard to the deposit is made which can only begin after the Tenancy has ended, either amicably or ADR or by COURT ORDER. Details below that should be given to the tenant as per DPS terms: b. The Landlord will be responsible for providing confirmation to the Third Party. c. The confirmation to each Party will contain: i. Name, address and contact details of the DPS; ii. the Deposit ID; iii. the amount of the Deposit and the date of receipt; iv. the name and contact details of the Landlord; v. the name(s) of the Tenant(s) and the Lead Tenant, if applicable vi. the address of the Tenancy property; vii. start date of Tenancy; viii. tenancy duration (months); ix. a copy of these terms and conditions ; x. a Landlord’s Repayment ID or Tenant’s Repayment ID, as applicable. i, iv, v, vi. were given to me only! Deposit Submission a. The Landlord or Letting Agent is responsible for ensuring that Deposits are submitted for protection within 14 calendar days of the date of receipt by the Landlord. b. Deposit information can be submitted by completing an online or paper Deposit Submission Form. c. The Landlord or Letting Agent is responsible for ensuring that the information contained on the Deposit Submission Form is full and correct. d. The following information is a mandatory requirement on all Deposit Submission Forms: I Landlord ID; ii. Landlord name / Letting Agent name / trading title; iii. house number / name and first line of address of Tenancy property; iv. town / city of Tenancy property; v. tenancy property type e.g. house; vi. whether the Tenancy property is furnished / unfurnished; vii. start date of Tenancy; viii Tenancy duration (months); ix. date Deposit received by the Landlord; x. Deposit amount; xi. full name and title of Tenant / Lead Tenant / Third Party; xii. in the case of Joint Tenants, the full name and title of all Tenants that are party to the Joint Tenancy. xiii. a mobile phone number or email address for the Sole / Lead Tenant. (online submissions). POINTS OF ERRORS Email address was wrong for ‘tenant’ so I didn’t get any correspondence from DPS (it is well documented that this method was the way I, the tenant, and LL communicated) LL has claimed the AST start date incorrectly - The date of AST LL claimed was 2009 (2008 is the correct date as he knows per ‘STRUCK OUT SECTION 21’, where he claimed 2007 was the AST) Therefore Date of deposit paid to LL must be wrong, - hence I didn’t find it. (searches are in my evidence) Best Practice in Deposit Protection for Landlords Some useful things to remember when submitting, managing and claiming a deposit: Repayment IDs › Keep any deposit confirmation letters / emails from The DPS as they include the Repayment IDs which both Landlord and Tenant will need at the end of the tenancy in order to repay the deposit. › Remember to ensure this message is passed on to Tenants. › The repayment process is a joint process between the Landlord and the Tenant – The DPS will not monitor this process. Direct Bank Transfer › Direct Bank Transfer (DBT) is the quickest and easiest way to pay. When you pay by DBT, you can choose either automatic or manual allocation of the money to a Deposit ID. If you choose manual allocation, don't forget to log in to The DPS website and allocate your money to a deposit - if you don't complete this, the deposit is not protected! Online Repayment Claims › Encourage online repayment claims – together or apart. › Agreement to use Alternative Dispute Resolution (ADR) can also be made online. Rejected Cheques Common errors we have noted are: › cheques not made payable to ‘The Deposit Protection Service’; › cheques not signed; › multiple cheques against a single deposit – The DPS will not accept this; in some cases one or more of the cheques may bounce and a deposit will be incomplete. Tenants’ email addresses › The Landlord must ensure this is taken from the Tenant as it is required when submitting deposits online. Single Claim Process › This is part of the Government legislation. › Statutory Declarations must be witnessed by a Solicitor (which should cost no more than £5), a Commissioner for Oaths or a Magistrate.

Ed999 - wow! You have given me so much here and its all good - thank you so much! I have something that may mean something to this case. The first part for possession of the section 8 was heard back in October/November 2010 and the Judge ordered that the LL is to gain possession on that date. I counter claimed prior to the date of 'judgement for possession', although I had already given the keys back to the LL. I have the court decision still with the date clearly stated, which also detailed the money part for arrears of the claim for a future set date. So does this mean I counter claimed whilst still officially a tenant? I know I will be responsible for the rent up to that date but it was only a couple of weeks (the downside). I also have the court receipt of payment for my counterclaim prior to this possession court hearing. Will this stand or will LL argue that I had already moved out. What do you think the Judge will see as the date of tenancy ending? Thanks so much again - you have sent me alot to digest and fully understand. I did claim for both parts - deposit not being registered and not having prescribed informaton. The 3rd (last one) hearing was classified as PART-HEARD as Judge knew that the LL still had not complied with 231(5), and he was peeved that the LL had failed to show in person on any hearing. He told me that LL cannot comply now as it is too late. The LL did send me and the Court further evidence which had the Prescribed Info needed. Answer to your advice that I can write to DPS to get the info needed. I did this but they flatly refused if I didnt have the ID number. I have recently tried again with the ID number via email and its been 3 weeks now and still no reply from DPS. DPS have to give me the repayment ID which will then allow me to view my deposit. I will try and give them a ring later.

Dear Ed999 Yes I do seem to have confused, but it is a complex one! - sorry. I am not building my hopes up but I was just reading case outcomes and thought about the following, any views would be appreciated. Whilst the tenancy was still in force, I asked for the deposit to be returned or prescribed information many times as I could not find any scheme holding my deposit. I was finally sent a recent screen dump from DPS website detailing my ref no after the the hearing was Part Heard. This kinds of proves that the LL had never sent it or could prove he had, therefore LL never met his obligations during or post tenancy. The DJ even asked the solicitor present at previous hearings for this to be sent to me. They failed to do this. How could I know if it was protected or not as LL failed to even acknowledge my requests for information? Well documented Searched on dates of AST 2007 (prior to legislation) and AST 2008. LL had failed a section 21 previously as he had not protect the deposit and did not state the current & correct tenancy agreement 2008. He has done it again and said that there was another AST in 2009 and gave this date to DPS (this does not exsist). Does this not prove evasion and entrappment by falsly leading me down a path that I did not have to take? LL did protect the deposit therefore entered into 'an agreement' that will allow for post tenancy counterclaim for not supplying required information? eg in Tensia it states DPS clarification for the purpose of the 'deposit lodged', that the Tenant and LL are still in contract until settled, even after teanancy has ended. Is this a difference between 'Gladhurst' and 'Tensia' and 'Potts' that could be in my favour? 'Gladhurst' never entered an agreement using an deposit scheme so never could use the words of the ACT and the wording of DPS, 'In POTTS case' most of the deposit was returned? Do I have anything here?

Hi Mariner Just reread my post 15. It wasn't clear about the reference I asked for. oops - sorry. I asked for this reference from LL in February 10 when I found the Hyde Housing flat, when I told LL I couldn't afford the house any longer. I was in arrears at this time too but from a few years previously and had paid it off monthly on top of my usual rent to clear. Hyde Housing knew about this and LL even spoke to them so nothing was hidden. But he still refused to write one without me coming up with a new plan to pay him the arrears within 6 months - I couldnt agree to this. I gave my word that the arrears would be paid via email and that we could formalise the agreement. So all he had to write was the truth and state a schedule was made and was being paid off. Plus the general: the property address and how long I had been there - 3 yrs. He knew where I was going! I wasnt running away without any forward address. So yes I know he couldnt give me a false reference but he didnt have to. He made my position far worse by not letting me go and arrears since March 10 - October 10 increased dramatically increased. It could have been better for both of us to stop this spiral getting out of control. But he even sent me emails (in my evidence) -'Its going to far worse for you than it will for me' Anyway - thats it regard to the reference.

Hi Mariner51, I can see that I am confusing, which isnt good! Due to circumstances I could not afford the property any longer (eg eldest child moving out who helped pay rent). LL refused to accept this, for reasons I cannot and will never understand. Shelter and council told me to get LL to serve notice to leave on me as I could not afford the property because if I leave I would make myself intentionally homeless. It confused the hell out of me but the LL was threatening (via email and on phone and just didnt see sense that I needed to move on). The last section 8 served, gave possession to LL back in October/November 10, because I was already in a council property, so Judge only part heard the section 8 on the possession order and postponed the money claim within section 8 to a future hearing. (LL did not attend) This is when I decided to counterclaim for non protection of deposit and prescribed information not given. We have then had 2 court hearings since and both have been postponed as LL has failed to be present to explain evidence in full. Although he was represented by a 2 different local solicitor who didnt have a clue! I can see your point that I actually made myself intententially homeless due to not paying the full monthly rent, but the council new this and paid what I could. They just wanted me to go down the route of being evicted, whilst putting me on a high point bidding system for housing. I eventually got a flat by default as it was not wanted by anyone else, and if I refused I would then have made myself intentionally homeless. So yes hence my name 'confused mum'! but I do think maybe I am in a good position, but even if I walk out without any money, I dont want to owe any either. Just want a clean slate.

At the end of the last hearing, judge told me "not to worry - it will be fine" - I think he could see my dissappointment and possibly me shaking like a leaf. He was lovely and he has named himself on the direction to hear the next hearing. This will be the 3rd time with him as DJ for this case. He has made sure that he has been assigned to this. The first time I met him, he actually printed out court cases Honeysuckle and the Tiensia in the chambers, for me to study and decide if I wanted to continue with my counterclaim. He questioned me last time, and I had studied and was impressed......... I think! This is now my 4th attempt to get this sorted - all 4 times without LL turning up! He has asked for a 4hr hearing. Plus he asked in his direction for both me and LL to provide dates we could not attend from April (last visit). I personally think he has had enough of my LL! Well I am so hoping and praying so.

Thank you Marina 51, Can you read my reply to Ed999 - love to hear your comments

Many thanks Ed999. Your info was helpful. I think you are absolutely right. I hope so! However I am in arrears, as my LL made it very awkward to leave and I had to go down the council route to declare homelessness for me and my kids. I actually asked for him to serve notice on me to leave. He failed the section 21 as no protection of deposit at that time. And he declared the wrong AST (prior to the schemes - feb 2007) Judge threw it out. Anyway to cut a long story short, he then served a section 8 and another 21 through an internet lawyer site. I didnt think it was valid as I checked with all 3 schemes for the correct year of AST which is 2008. Nothing. So I thought it wasn't protected. I was in arrears when leaving the property but mainly due to LL not giving me a reference when I found a HYDE flat. I am a self declared bankrupt (over 4yrs ago and LL knew this) due husband dissappearing, an so needed LL support. But I only got grief! He has protected the deposit under the year 2009 (no new AST agreed or signed). So wonder I didnt find it. I have only found out this date out recently since the last court hearing - PART HEARD. (when he sent me screen dump of the web page from DPS of the info I needed) Do you think Judge will do a SAAD v HOGAN and deduct what he thinks is owed to LL if he doesn't show up? Will he bother to argue for them, reading LL witness statements. Or will he allow the solicitor to fumble his way through? What do you think?

Hi All again Just an update - as some maybe interested in this case so far. Attended court court again in April and Landlord did not attend again. LL representative (a local solicitor who was only appointed that morning) who was not given any evidence papers from either party and just had to wing it! In front of judge, he wanted to postpone it again. Judge, not amused, asked where the LL was as he had clearly directed at last hearing that LL and Me (tenant) were to put on oath to answer questions. Very angry as he had given 3 or 4 hours to sort it out, then asked me if I had any objections. I stated that I still had not had the prescribed information and this has now been postponed 3 times. He understood exactly what I meant and made sure in his direction that the hearing was now 'PART-HEARD' and both claimant and defendant are to attend in early August. He told me that the LL is now too late to give me this information. Plus he ordered LL to pay my costs for the day and to be paid within 2 weeks. LL did, but arrived much later than 2 weeks. I have also had the prescribed information sent to me since the last hearing! Kinda proves that LL hadn't sent it to me previously - what does anyone think? Was also sent to court along with another witness statement! DJ made it quite clear that no more evidence can now be served as the hearing has begun. So what will happen now if LL doesn't show? Am I safe? Any support would be great Thanks in advance

Thanks xoAmyox I have looked up the DPS terms that were not attched to the prescribed information letter sent to me by Landlord Assist, obviously after my LL had put into the scheme and I have pasted the part detailing what should be given to the tenant: b. The Landlord will be responsible for providing confi rmation to the Third Party. c. The confi rmation to each Party will contain: i. Name, address and contact details of the DPS; ii. the Deposit ID; iii. the amount of the Deposit and the date of receipt; iv. the name and contact details of the Landlord; v. the name(s) of the Tenant(s) and the Lead Tenant, if applicable vi. the address of the Tenancy property; vii. start date of Tenancy; viii. tenancy duration (months); ix. a copy of these Terms and Conditions; x. a Landlord’s Repayment ID or Tenant’s Repayment ID, as applicable. i, iv, v, vi. were given to me only! iii - I was given the amount only but not the date of receipt. So you are correct in what you say. Therefore the LL has not given me the details that were crucial for me to confirm if the deposit was actually registered. Especially as he gave a false start date of the AST Agreement and didnt give me the ID number. Although this states in many papers of the legislation to do this or the LL could be fined 3x etc..... we all know that this will be very unlikely to happen due to recent case studies on appeals. TIENSIA -&- VISION ENTERPRISES (T/A UNIVERSAL ESTATES) & HONEYSUCKLE PROPERTIES -&- FLETCHER, McGRORY, WHITWORTH I think the first case listed is still live and no money claim has been finalised. Does anyone know when this is going back court? My other question is, due to my counterclaim being issued before the hearing and before I knew my deposit was actually in DPS, will this still be ok to go ahead as the hearing was adjourned? Surely if the case has not actually been heard in full yet and at the next hearing date I will know all the details I need to know. Will this be seen as a waste of time? Not sure if I have made myself clear. To be honest I really dont care about winning the counterclaim, its just the principal and the unjust situation and the way that the LL has dodged telling me the info. I dont want the LL to win because the Law says so, but we all know she has done wrong and no-one can touch her. If I can prove her dishonesty with this, I will have a stronger case with the evidence I have in proving how she made my situation with arrears far worse. Thanks again Amy

Hi Worriedman1969 What happened at the section 21 court hearing? In my opinion, the LL cannot win a section 21 if your deposit was not in a scheme before issuing the section 21. However, you do need to sort out the arrears and come to some arrangement with the LL asap, if communications are still open. Its still worth a try, and it will look in your favour if you write to try and resolve the arrears. Send recorded delivery. Try a few times, making an offer to repay. Your LL will probably place your deposit into a scheme and will issue with a section 8 for repossession and arrears to be paid. But he has up to the date of the hearing to place the money into the deposit scheme (unlike section 21). Be prepared for the worse eventually. Seek help asasp from shelter and the council. Pay the rent regulary from now with extra towards arrears. I wish you all the best confused mum

Thanks again for your speedy reply. Your point 1) LL via Landlord Assist, did not give me and still has not given me the ref ID number for the deposit into the DPS scheme. I will be asking Landlord Assist for this on Monday. Your point 2) I totally agree - just trying to gather the info he basis his decision on. Your point 3) I moved out of the house in question in October and am now in council accomodation, through their bidding system. I was a high priority. But still had to wait for months. Your point 4) THe housing asociation I was with worked with MOAT and they needed a LL reference. I lost it because LL refused. I have emails telling the Association of my arrears (that happened when I began work again) but they definately needed this reference as evidence details clearly many times. Because I am an x bankrupt due to my husband dissappearing and leaving me with 4 children (ok 1 was over 18 ), this created a difficulty in finding a further more affordable private rental home. My only route was the housing association that had accepted knowing all about arrears, which then failed due to my LL not giving them a reference (obviously up to LL), but this only left me one option whch was to find a cheaper place via the council. They did help me with Housing Benefit which went to the LL but it fell well short of the monthly rental. I had lost the will in fighting with the council and they were now trying to help me find a place. I was told by them to stay put until a place was found. I did what I was told. T The last but one hearing in November for the section 8 allowed the repossession of the property as I was no longer there. The money claim was adjourned to January, (just had) Now adjourned to (April). Does this help? I still dont think I have a leg to stand on but in my view the LL refused to give me a reference knowing I could not afford it and 8 months later I am finally in a flat which is affordable. My hands were tied. Now I face more debt which could have been avoidable.

Hi Mariner51 thank you for your reply. You are correct and I do believe there are tenants (many) that play the system. I am a total novice at being a tenant. I was only told via Shelter and the council of my rights and what I should do as I was not to make myself potentially homeless. I couldn't leave the property and had to wait for a council property, but I couldnt afford the property due to change of circumstances. I did find somewhere previous to seeking help with the council, but my Landlord wouldnt give me a reference for a housing association property, because I was in arrears, from an old debt 3 years previous (due to housing benefit stopping for 4 months whilst the council sorted out my new payment - all because I started work again. I had been paying off this debt to my LL every month over 2 years. But still had some arrears. I begged my LL to let me go but he wouldnt even though I told him I couldnt afford it! I was told to ask for a section 21 or 8 (council advice) so they could start the process of putting me on the bidding system quicker. I did ask for it. He served a section 21 and it months later when shelter advised me of the deposit law etc..... anyway section 21 failed as he didnt deposit the money. I wrote letters asking for the deposit to be protected. Then 6 weeks later he served a section 8 and a 21 and the rest is as above. then the prescribed info came. I checked as already stated. Wasnt showing as protected. So he knew that the valid AST was 2008 after the failed section 21 was struck out! He then deposited the money giving details to DPS of an AST in 2009! No new AST was given or signed. I never searched this year. He was terrible at suporting me with many problems with the house etc..... I would not have botherd with the n208 if he had been honest.

Hi again I have studied the documents again and read some websites who have reviewed these cases. I have decided to withdraw my N208 and ask for the LL to waive costs. (The judge said I could do this). So that's it! I do think it's wrong though after all these months LL deposits it at the last minute, just because LL can! Plus LL has been very awkward with every part of this, allowing me to spend money to claim because he never even deposited the money in the correct year! It's a joke and makes the whole precedure and Legislation not worth the paper it is written on! So LL's can do what they want and treat their tenants badly, until the end. Oh well! At least LL cannot touch it until the court decides and make its order.So beware tenants! It's not worth claiming for non-protection unless you have moved out!

Hi AllRang the DPS and they said that the deposit is still with them and I have to contact the LL for the ID ref number for the DPS deposit. I asked about the date he had claimed as being the AST agreement start date being a whole year late and they said that they do not check this information. They did say that unless I knew the date to search on DPS then this could be problem but wouldn't commit or make comment. They just kept mentioning the 14 day rule! Well we all know that lends no weight in court.I attended court hearing and as my counterclaim was attached the judge asked me about this first. I told him that I now know since submitting this N208 that the LL has put my deposit into DPS, but he failed to give DPS the correct date of AST which then allowed me to believe it was not protected as I searched on the correct date. I had already submitted within my defence to the section 8 and the subsequent N208 copies of the DPS website (via Screen Dump) showing it was not deposited.LL had given me prescribed information but no information about the date he had used and had told them a wrong email address for me. I have evidence in my defence showing LL writing to me via email.Due to this DPS sent my ID ref number for deposit to an incorrect email, so I didnt get it!At no point did th LL then and up until now try to tell me the number, knowing that I was going to go down the route for non-protection. I had sent them 3 letters ( 2 were after the prescribed information and my searches on DPS) All documented in my defence.At this point the Judge stopped the hearing and printed out case notes on two Non protection cases (22 pages long). Asked me to read these throroughly. He said he wanted to do the next hearing to continue as it needed 2 hours and that he knows alot about these claims. He was really nice!He asked me if I can get hold of the ID number from DPS and told him that they have told me to get it from my LL.He asked if I can do this and do I have an email address for the LL. I pointed out that I do as that was the preferred way that we communicated with each other. I pointed out all the email correspondence we had had that was in my defence.The Legal representation then said I could get it from Landlord + Assist ( who had sent me the prescribed information )I said I would.He then asked if I had the Clamaints defence to my defence to the section 8. The claimant (my LL) had failed to send me a copy and the Judge was starting to get agitated. The LL was not present (never has) and this was my 3rd hearing. He looked at the defence papers which was 30 pages long and searched for a witness signature declaring a statement of truth. He eventually found it. He said " here it is, on page 30" - he was not amused.So now it is adjourned to April!The 2 cases I have to read are Case Nos: B5/2009/1655; B5/2009/2163IN THE HIGH COURT OF JUSTICECOURT OF APPEAL (CIVIL SECTION)ON APPEAL FROM CROYDON and MANCHESTER COUNTY COURTSJudge Ellis; Disdrict Judge StonierCase Nos: 8PB59368; 8AL0332911/11/2010BEFORE LORD JUSTICE THORPE, LORD JUSTICE SEDLEY, LORD JUSTICE RIMERBETWEEN:CHRISTELLE TIENSIA -&- VISION ENTERPRISES (T/A UNIVERSAL ESTATES)HONEYSUCKLE PROPERTIES -&- FLETCHER, McGRORY, WHITWORTHAll this is alot of reading and if anyone can make any sense of these then appreciated. All the lord Justices do not seem to agree and one money claim is still not ended!!!!Help please - What does the Judge I saw, want me to do???? Stop the N208 claim or go for it?

Just noticed another error in the prescribed information provided to me from landlord+assist My email is wrong! Just sent this to TDS..... "Dear Sir/Madam On looking at the prescribed information sent to me now in a differnt light, I can now see an error in my email address. They have written ********** which does not exsist! I find this strange as this way of communication was used between my LL and myself. I have many (over 50 emails from her using the correct address), so I find it hard to believe that this was not deliberate. Why did she not give me the ID number of the deposit on the many times of stating that she should return the deposit for non compliance. The first being when she lost the section 21 case due to not stating the correct AST Agreement. The Judge struck out the possession order as the subsequent and last Agreement was not displayed as being the correct one, dated the 9th February 2008, and the deposit was not protected. LL dis[layed the first one 9th Feb 2007. The Section 8 possession was given as I had already moved out of the property, but the money claim part of section 8 is to be heard on 1st Feb 2011. I have issued a counterclaim N208 for non compliance as the LL has not given the ID number and ignored my letters of non compliance and has not issued you with the correct details of the AST Agreement and my email address for you to let me know the ID number. Please could you look into this asap. I know you offer a 4 working day response, but this is urgent. I would also like to add that I have print outs from your website: Is My Deposit Protected dated the 07/11/2010 (after I moved out) with many different versions of searches, as my name has 2 words and have AST Agreements dated 2007 and 2008. Just didnt search 2009 as this is not when an AST Agreement was made. Surely LL has some obligation to tell me what year she has placed the deposit under. I do not know if the deposit is still with you or whether she has taken it because I have now moved out and have not known to argue this or dispute her claim in any way. How is the tenant protected from this?" What does any one on this site think???

Hi if anyone can advise asap then most grateful. below is copy of an email that I have just sent to DPS. it explains all: Dear.. Please can you confirm if it is legal for a Landlord to protect a tenants deposit with DPS, using a start date that is a whole year later than that of the start date of the tenancy agreement and when the deposit was paid. The Landlord has not given me, the tenant, the year she was declaring as the start of the tenancy agreement and I checked on the 2 years that there were actual tenancy agreements in place which were feb 2007 (DPS not needed) and feb 2008. She has deposited it 2010 but has listed feb 2009 as the tenancy start date and deposit paid, but has failed to inform me of the these details and ID number. It's only by chance I find that it is deposited in another year, by checking if she had chosen another year. She did. She did send me details for me to confirm deposit through Legal 4 Landlords with a letter dated 4/3/2010 and attached info from landlord + assist which again fails to tell any dates. This is signed 16/9/10 asking me to sign and confirm details with them or go to DPS to confirm directly with the DPS scheme. I immedaitely checked using your on line checker and found it was not secured with DPS, but I checked only 2007 and 2008. So I did not sign the statement allowing me the opportunity to confirm that I have read details and that the information is correct, as I did not think it was deposited. I have sent numurous letters to LL asking for my deposit to be returned since moving out of the property in Oct 2010 and stating that I would issue a N208 claim against her for non-protection. She has never replied to these letters to say it is protected and she has never given me an ID number. I have issued a N208 a few weeks ago as a counterclaim to a section 8 and now find by chance it is actually deposited. This cannot be right and surely the LL has an obligation to tell me of the ID number, which she has not done or responded to my letters since October 2010 to tell me of the information I needed eg year she had declared and ID number. I have sent letters for non compliance to her and she has ignored this, but obviously she didn't want me to know she had protected it, as she chose a year I was not likely to search on. I have not confirmed the details on DPS's on line checker, but need guidance as to what to do as I have a hearing this Tuesday 1st February 2011. Details: Tenant ***** Paid £2200 Date of last AST agreement issued 9th February 2008 - declaring deposit is received. (NB No further AST agreements have been issued) Landlord **** I moved out of this rental address on the 8th October 2010 New Address, that my LL has a record of; ****** I look forward to hearing from you.

My dilema is: Been to court early November to defend a section 8 notice. I had already moved out of the property so judge made the judgement for the possession to be awarded. Due to my evidence that I had produced (copies to all parties given) regard to the arrears the judge decided that the hearing will need 30mins, so adjourned the 2nd part of the hearing for the claimants (LandLord) arrears claim. Plus he told the lawer acting on behalf of LL (LL - did not attend) that he had up to the 25th November to defend my defence. No defence lodged. Within my defence papers/evidence I produced: a) copies of letters asking for the return of the deposit (£2200) or I will take court action, as the deposit was never protected, (letters sent prior to moving out of the LL house and after I had moved) LL knows my address. b) Along with disrepair emails c) reasons of how the LL stood in my way from moving out last February 2010, as I could no longer afford it. I had to wait for months for a council property and not make myself homeless etc etc.... All this was defended with emails to my LL and from my LL. d) Plus my LL section 21 failure in July due to non protection of deposit. Plus a letter from me to my LL asking for him to serve my notice to leave back in March 2010 (following Shelters advice and Local Council's advice) My question is: Can I still use the N208 and somehow attach this to my defence as a counterclaim to be heard in the same hearing - now early February 2011? I moved out of the property late September and still no return of my deposit. Please help me asap as I think I have to give court and LL time to read my counterclaim - if I can still do this???? Thanks

It sounds very confusing. I think you the Letting agents have held the deposit and not placed it into a scheme which is against the Law. Im not sure why the Letting agents think they can take the deposit to pay the last months rent. This cannot be touched if if a deposit scheme, Rent is normally paid a month in advance. Do you have any correspondence from the Letting agent to say that they were using the deposit to pay the last month? As this seems to be vital! Does your Assured Shorthold Agreement (AST) with your tenant say that the agent was to place the deposit into the DPS? Another key part of evidence. If you have these then you are safe and dry. You need to submit this evidence as your defence and state that you never received the deposit monies and therefore was not possible to place the monies into the DPS. Hope thids helps - write back

What does your agreement / contract, between you the LL and agent, say that was agreed to? Does it say who is responsible for the deposit? Who was the deposit paid to/handed over to? How was it paid: cash or cheque? When was the last AST agreement dated?

Hi NicoleElize First thing you shouldn't do is withhold rent, without agreement from the LL. Plus you should not get the repair done without an agreement from LL for costs being deducted from rent. If you have asked on many occasions to get it fixed, have you got evidence of this? Did you send a letter (via recorded delivery) or has LL written to you? Or has it all been through verbal communication? If so - write a letter now asking for the repairs to be done within 3 days and mention all the conversations had to date. Add the dates of conversations. Then if no luck, go to the council as they will inspect the damage and then sort the repairs out for you if they agree with you that it is a danger physically and to health. They will then bill the LL. Have a go! Confused mum

Hi I went to court and LL didnt attend but she was represented by a solictor. Had handed in evidence etc prior to court hearning for all parties but judge just wanted me to answer some questions. The judge asked me if I agreed to the LL claim of arrears and if not why not. I answered with a few reasons eg told LL I needed to move out in February 2010 as I couldn't afford the property any longer and LL refused to give me a reference after I had found a cheaper place with a housing association. The LL wanted full arrears within 6 months and I couldn't promise that but agreed to pay at the arrangement I had kept to for 2 years. The LL knew I was a bankrupt and knew I couldn't find a private rented property due to this. The council and shelter advised me to not make myself potentially homeless and the council put me on the housing list but I had to stay put. Plus there were issues with having no water over last Christmas (from December 2nd 2009 - Feb 2nd)2010) I told the judge that I did not withhold the rent but paid for the repairs and the rest of the money went to LL. I do not believe I should have paid rent as water should have been important to fix but LL was in vietnam and he told me to sort it myself! Many emails to support the problems I had with getting any support from LL. Plus since 1 bedroom a n 2 bathrooms were out of use due to leaks and the built in dishwasher was not repaired since december 2009, all which the LL failed to repair after many pleads. I then explained that I was no longer at the LL house and he was notified of this weeks before the court hearing and before I had received the court papers. The judge then granted the possession. He also made sure it was worded in a way that would not affect me. He was nice to me. Then he said to us that with the 2nd issue of the claim was the money claim and that seemed to need at least a 30 minute hearing, which would have to happen at a later date. He told the claimants solicitor to review the evidence I had produced and now defend this. This is where I got a little confused. Can I now defend the claim and defence he might bring in response with a counterclaim of failiure to protect the deposit. I found out only days before the court hearing that the LL had not in fact protected the deposit. No reference number given to me, just a notice via a website solictor to say the intention. I stupidly just assumed it was protected. But I checked and it wasn't. Can't believe he nearly pulled the wool over my eyes. So looking at the SAAD v HOGAN case, it seems very similar to this. Can anyone advise on what I should do? thanks

Mr Shed thanks for your replies and I am aware of this. But as I had to move quickly as it was the council system of rehousing my family at very short notice, I had no chance to actually five my LL notice required. Its just one of those things I suppose - but he LL did put me into a corner after me telling him back in February that I needed to leave as I couldnt afford it any longer. LL refused to believe this and wouldnt give me reference to get a private rented (more affordable place - which I had found via a housing association and they accepted me even though I had declared myself bankrupt in 2008 due to a break up of marriage). I had been paying the arrears I had every month and had kept to it and I wanted to keep to this arrangement but he wanted it all within a very short time which was impossible, hence I had to stay and get into more debt until being rehoused. I had to ask my LL to serve notice on me. It all sounds bazaar but he has caused the debt to accumalate and now he wants it by this method Anyway I have ranted a bit too much but I think he is an idiot! He could have let me go months and months ago he could have rented it out to someone who could have afforded his property and I could have carried on paying him £100 per month towards arrears. Thanks to anyone who reads this I have just checked DPS to make sure my deposit is secured as I have never received notification from the scheme itself. It isnt!!! I have completed my defence and re looking at the LL claim there are typo errors eg the rent arrears they have added it up wrong and has a total of less than 2 months in arrears, Plus they have stated that the renewal date of AST was in October 2008 and it was in fact February 2008. I have all supporting evidence to take to court regard to disrepairs and unusable room since feb 2010 and no water for 2 months and a huge hole in the garden where the ground has just given way etc etc. Plus photos how I left the property - painted and carpets washed etc... Should I do a counterclaim N208 for a counterclaim. When reading Saad v Logan court hearing which was also a section 8, it sounds very similar to my circumstances. Can someone tell me if the defendant in this claim actually did a counterclaim or just mentioned the deposit and fine to be used to set aside the arrears? So my LL hasn't bothered to protect the deposit even after a failed section 21 where the judge struck it out! And thinks he can still get away with it! I think I could win this - but can anyone tell me any pitfalls I may have not foreseen. Mr Shed thanks for your replies!