Hi, This may be an odd question but here goes. I have a CCJ instalment order which I pay £40 monthly, and they also got security on my property for 9k when Restons took me to court for unsecured credit card which I did try and fight but they got security and an instalment order. Now I am at a bit of a crossroads as I dont live in the house, it was rented and I was going to sell and may have a potential buyer. I am now thinking of moving back in the house as the equity may not be enough to repay my other debts and would want to come out debt free, however if I sold but would be about 2k short. So my question is if I rang up the lovely Restons and said I will sell the house if you pay me back 2k otherwise I will move back in and pay my £40 til eternity what reaction do you think I would get (I am a single parent so unlikely they could force sale if I moved back in the house) Is there any negotiation after security granted? If anyone could offer advice it would be appreciated.

Im with you on that one Ford......I can understand both sides and agree there has to be some benefit for both. However I only got my judgement for installments in November, then they had me back for redermintation as they were not happy with installments in december and then back again in March for C/O. Four months hardly gives me time to get in a better position financially and I now have all the costs added to my debt. So in four months my debt has increased by over £500. Not a bad return in my view.

I think your right Ganymede, They will fob me off with law jargon I dont understand. I think I will visit CAB and get thier views as they can help represent you on some occasions I think? And will also ask someone at the MOJ if there is a statute that deals with both and if not why it is being used in county courts. I think its discraceful as I also got whacked with another £280 costs for the second time for court appearances I didnt request.

I agree, but I am far from the only one who has had these additions to there court orders and if the law states if you keep up installments set by the court you cannot be subject to a charging order then I would like clarification as to why they are including the right for the creditor to apply and grant them due to a hybrid addition they have chosen to include. I will try my luck and see what they say, will take up to 20 days by the look of it lol.

Oh Im up for it Ford lol, What a great idea! I would love to have them explain WTF is or isnt the law, and why county courts seem to think its acceptable to adlib what they put in a court order to baffle the hell out of defendents and hit them with both barrels. You are a genius

Hi, Im ok just just angry now lol. It was the same judge and he rambled on about the law changing all the time and I shouldnt worry about the c/o as they wont get an order for sale as under 25k? He also advised when I got a bit tearful to pursue my ombudsman complaint as If they found in my favour could reduce the c/o accordingly... but they called today and told me that as it had been to court and had been decided that they couldnt proceed and overide it as the amount was set at court! I also had a letter from the solicitor asking for an income and expenditure completed to review the payments and I said they were set in court at £40 so thats what I will be paying and apparently I have to review it every 3 or 6 six months as my circumstances may change! I am upset as to be honest I am also evicting tenants as they have spent there housing benefit for 10 weeks which is stressfull and wanted to sell the house as cant cope with the hassle and pay all my debts but with the c/o it will take most of my equity and I will not be able to get everything cleared. I have looked everywhere about hybrid court orders and cant find anything.....I just cant get my head around putting they "have leave to apply for a charging order notwithsatnding installment order" when insallment order remains and effectivley I have been shafted with both a charging order and installment order. There was nothing in the order to say they couldnt force sale either. I may try citizens advice to see if they can dig up the legal position as I just dont agree judges can put in what they want irrespective of the law. Sorry for rambling

CASE LOST FINAL ORDER GRANTED! Well despite putting my defence together with all your fantastic help the judge granted the charging order anyway. Very upset right now, and broke down in court as couldnt believe he was going to allow it irrespective of the law. I would love to know if these hybrid orders could be challenged. x

Hi, Please could you give me the outcome of your charging order as I have also just had final hearing and kept up repayments but have a hybrid order with leave to apply for charging order.... the final order was granted and not sure where to go from here. x

Thank you for your help, really appreciate it

anyone ??

Hi everyone, I have started my defence and wondered if you could all have a read and see what you think. I am trying to attempt to make the judge aware the new reforms are not in place without teaching him to suck eggs and annoy him, so thats why I have done a review of my redermination. Please feel free to pick it to pieces I wont be offended as Im not that good at this. Atmy redetermination hearing I believe theorder received by the judge was fair and took into consideration both me as the debtor and the applicant as thecreditor based on the following: “There be an order for payment by instalments to continue at the rate of £xx permonth as already ordered” thisenables me as the debtor to repay my debt as always intended at an affordableamount but still reduce my debt to the creditor. “Liberty for both parties to apply to review the order”. This is fair both me as the debtor and theapplicant as the creditor . “If so advised claimant be permitted to apply for a chargingorder, notwithstanding the instalment order already made”. I am aware there have been proposed reforms which ifpassed would enable the creditor to apply for a charging order even if installmentswere paid, by including this in the order it will allow the creditor additionalsecurity in being able to obtain a charging order more quickly in the futureshould these reforms be made law. So unless I have completelymisinterpretated the above judgment I am confused as to why a mere 10 weeksafter my redermination hearing, I am being dragged back into court for no otherreason than “they may apply for a charging order” as all my required payments have been made on time in full(appendix b evidence of payments). The charging order reforms are still“proposed” and have not been introduced, I have attactched the current reviewdates (appendix c proposed reform doc my moj) therefore the current legislation stillstands. Accordingto 'Section 86(1) The County Courts Act 1984: ‘Wherethe court has made an order for payment of any sum of money by instalments,execution on the order shall not be issued until after default in payment ofsome instalment according to the order.’ This point was further considered in the case ofMercantile Credit V Ellis in The Court of Appeal 1987, where it was found thatthe wording of the Charging Orders Act states quite clearly that no furtheraction could be taken without a default in payment. For my part, I would hold that where thecircumstances established that an order for payment by instalments has beenmade and has been observed, then in any event it would be impossible to attackan exercise of discretion where that discretion was exercised in favour of adebtor (now a judgment debtor) faithfully discharging the terms of the judgmentorder itself. So far as thejurisdiction point is concerned I have only one matter to add. Reliance wasplaced on the fact that under Section 1(1) of the Charging Orders Act 1979 thecharge may be imposed in order to secure "the payment of any money due orto become due under the judgment or order." Those words appear to me to bewholly without significance for present purposes, when one observes thatSection 86 of the County Courts Act 1984, having first imposed an embargo onthe execution of the order until after default in payment of some instalmentaccording to the order, goes on to provide by subsection (3) as follows:"Except so far as may be otherwise provided by county court rules made forthose purposes, execution or successive executions may issue if there is anysuch default for the whole of the said sum of money and costs then remainingunpaid or for such part as the court may order either at the time of theoriginal order or at any subsequent time; but except so far as may be otherwiseprovided by such rules, no execution shall issue unless at the time when itissues the whole or some part of an instalment which has already become dueremains unpaid." I also would like to make the court aware that I have other debts thatI am on reduced payment plans with no interest/charges being added and thischarging order would “unduly predjudice” my other creditors and put my currentpayment plans at risk should they be aware that another creditor has a chargeon my property. My other creditors have not attempted any action against meother than allowing me to reduce my payments to an affordable level.

Wow where did you find that little gem....thankyou. On the application it only gives two options either the installments are unpaid or no installments are set, they have ticked the box for the unpaid section but annotated see section 7 which is the further information section and added as prev post. Naughty naughty...I am going to work on my defence soon so will post up as Im really not that good at the legal jargon. I will copy and paste some from cmbruamyths defence as sounded great but will need you guys to pick it to pieces for me lol.

Hi, yes exactly that one. Thank you soooo much started to panick then as if force I am stuffed lol You are a legal god in my view

OMG Heelllp Just been reading proposed reforms to charging orders. Does anyone know for definate if the proposed reforms to charging orders were actually passed?

Hi my reasons are county court act 1984 section 86 installments not in default. I have not defaulted on ANY installments on my CCJ since issued and my installments were ordered on a CCJ prior to redermination then kept the same so no changes to amounts etc at hearing so surely that is the law and that is how he should make a judgment?

Hi, I will send them a copy of my defence then in that case as I dont want to jeopordise my case. I did not recieve any instuctions on the interim c/o and the covering letter just gave details of the date and time and asked me to disclose any other debtors not mentioned in the list they had on the c/o. It doesnt even say if I want to object to send objections to the court 7 days beforehand, I have just established that from what I have read so thats why I am questioning if I have to send them details as they havent provided me any instruction to do so, as a layman who knows nothing about law its a bit cheeky to expect me to comply with the rules The application completed for the c/o in section 2 Judgment debt is annotated as follows X £ (see paragraph 7) of the instalments due under the judgment or order has fallen due and remains unpaid (or) The judgment or order did not provide for payments by installments Section 7 is the further information section and they have put the following: The judgement creditor asks the court to take into account the following: further to district judge smith and order dated xx/12/2011, claimant has permission to apply gor a charging order. Do they not need a reason to apply or just that because the judge said we can so we will.

Ok thank you,

Thank you Ford. Interesting word ordinarily.. Ok lets try another word lol... hyperthetically if I dont what would or could happen?

Hi, Thank you so much I will use that argument as my CCJ was agreed and maintained prior to redermintation hearing so hopefully that rule should still stand. Your info was really helpful as I am not very good at wording legal stuff. Another question ....Do I have to sent Restons a copy of my defence? or can I just send to the court. I dont really want to give them a heads up on my defence.

No it was all very quick and to be honest it was only after the re determination I examined my statements and thought wow thats a lot! my main aim was not to get a forthwith as I knew I would be heading for a c/o but it seems irrespective of not getting forthwith judgement Im over a barrell still anyway. Oh to be a debtor

I did look at papaerwork to defend but to no avail. I have since my redermination however put in a complaint to ombudsman on unfair lending practices, the banking crisis hit in 2008 and they increased my limit 5 times in a 12 month period by 6k! from 3k limit to 9k. I have complained as my details and affordability to repay was not checked they sent blank cheques with every statement so i feel they have added to my financial difficulties as when times got hard I started to use the available balance and now are turning an unsecure debt into a secured debt. I know Im clutching at straws but I want them to justify that to the ombudsman and if upheld they can reduce my debt.

Hi, The debt is for £8500 and payments set for £50 based on income expenditure. I couldnt defend the debt as I had the correct defaults and they sent copy of cca so did not think i would have a leg to stand on to be honest. I do have other debts though and between credit card and o/d with hsbc it is slightly more than mbna and also card with natwest of about 5k. I have reduced payments agreed with both and stopped interest. Hope this helps

I have sent a PM as suggested so fingers crossed. I can see what you mean about the thread as my origional CCJ was set and I paid it then they requested re determination and my installments were continued as origionally ordered and they have been paid.

Hi, No the house is in my name only, I will have a look at that thread and see if It will help. Im just confused that they can add things in to allow charging orders when installments havent been unpaid. Judge lottery is very annoying as no matter what I read it doesnt apply as he has put this in!

Please will someone help me on this....