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Everything posted by Gribbly

  1. Hi All, Its been a while but thought I would post the outcome in case it helps anyone else in a similar situation. My daughter wrote to TFL clearly stating the facts and urged them to review it. She received a letter last week, stating that following review, no further action would be taken, she did not have to pay the £60 and the matter was now closed. So, sense and truth can prevail after all. Gribbly
  2. I've been looking again at prices, because I am still at a loss to explain why this clerk issued my daughter with a child ticket. However, from what I can gather from the TfL website a "New Deal" ticket is charged at child price. So can someone- SRPO, Old CodJA, Underground please explain how this ticket works and if a child ticket would be issued or would it say "New Deal". Is it possible he could have issued one of these by mistake? Thanks, Gribbly
  3. OK as you say neither I nor you were there, let's hope the conversation has been recorded. In reply to your comments Daughter "Yes, do you need to see my student ID?" This response infers that your daughter had the requisite student ID and would get it out and show if the clerk wanted her to. As far as I see it, it infers nothing. She had already stated she was 18, that she had just moved there and had never done this before. As it was still September and full-time students had not returned it was clear she had not registered yet, so couldn't have had a student discount card. She actually thinks she told him she was going in to register but is not 100% certain of that. Personally, I think its ridiculous that you can't buy a student travel card with TfL in advance once you are accepted on a course, as you can here in Coventry or anywhere else in the country. If we had been able to do this then this farcical series of events would never even have happened. I have also just looked up ticket prices here: 18+ student scheme | Transport for London So even if he mistakenly thought she had a student discount card it should still have been EXACTLY the same price as an adult ticket for an individual cash fare. And I also dispute that "if those were the exact words used, it seems the clerk may have been mislead" this again suggests intent and as I have stated before there was no intent to mislead or avoid payment. I appreciate that you are only playing devil's advocate but all this has only strengthened my belief that the responsibility for this lies with the ticket clerk. With respect, can you please answer my previous requests with regard to the Verification letter, should she have received one of these? Thanks, Gribbly
  4. Hi Underground, I am not familiar with the specific stations, we live in Coventry so rarely have cause to visit London. Finchley Rd and Frognal is still run by TfL though and part of the Underground system even if not technically an underground station isn't it? In answer to your questions: It was a return ticket. She was stopped at Edgware Rd Station. The intended journey was Finchley Road and Frognal to Temple. Gribbly
  5. Thanks Old-CodJA, That is great news if they have a recorded conversation of the event, as it will be quite obvious that she had been sold the wrong ticket. Can I just clarify once again: AT NO TIME DID MY DAUGHTER ASK OR ATTEMPT TO BUY A CHILD TICKET. As far as she remembers the conversation, it went something like: Daughter "Hello, I've just moved here and I've never done this before so I'm not sure how all this works. I need to get to The Strand." TfL officer "How old are you?" Daughter "18" TfL officer "Are you a student?" Daughter "Yes, do you need to see my student ID?" TfL officer "No, that's fine." He then issued her with a ticket and she paid the amount requested. OK I can appreciate that the ticket remains the property of the railway, however I am assuming that under consumer law, my daughter made a contract with TfL at point of sale to pay for the specific journey, that is what she has paid for rather than the ticket itself. Once the product has been paid for and the contract entered into, I was under the impression that it was illegal for the seller to ask for more money. So under Data protection I'm sure my daughter will be able to ask for all CCTV footage and recorded evidence in addition to the officer's notes who stopped her? From your explanation in your previous reply, can you therefore clarify that the TfL clerk, by deliberately making the specific request of issuing a child ticket has committed an offence and should be responsible for any administration costs involved? Could you also be kind enough to confirm that a verification letter should have been sent by TfL as per their prosecution policy? Many thanks, Gribbly ps many thanks for your kind comments Jackie, my daughter was really shaken up by it and my wife really appreciates your support.
  6. Hi Old-CodJA and thanks for your reply, thought I'd check emails before bed, I have spoken with my daughter this evening and just to clarify the points. My daughter is 18. She DID NOT buy the ticket at a machine, she went to the ticket office at Finchley Road and Frognal. She didn't ask for any specific ticket. She asked the ticket officers advice and explained she was a student. The ticket officer asked her how old she was and she replied she was 18. He then gave her the ticket fully aware of her age. Can I just point out this was the first time she had ever bought a tube ticket herself, on the rare occasion that we have visited London before, myself or my wife has always bought the tickets for the famiy. She thought she was doing the best thing by asking for advice from a member of staff. When she was stopped on the tube she gave the officers her ticket and they asked how old she was and she replied she was 18. It was only when they pointed out she had a childs ticket that she became aware of it. You are correct she wasn't arrested, she thought she had been, but she was cautioned before being interviewed. Yes they did confiscate the ticket and yes she did have to buy an adult fare ticket. You are also correct in that it is not a fine, she has been asked to pay £60 to cover administration costs and to admit the alleged offence in writing. Since my previous post I have read the TfL prosecution policy and do I understand correctly that a verification letter should have been sent giving her the opportunity to reply with extenuating circumstances. She certainly has not received one although the officers did say they she would hear from them in writing within 5 days. This formal warning letter is the first correspondance she has had. So my question still remains, why should she have to admit liability and pay for incorrect advice and an incorrect ticket issued by a member of TfL's staff? I dispute that there was intent to evade payment of the fare. I agree that had she bought a childs ticket from a machine then that could be seen to be intent but she didn't, she asked advice and paid for a ticket at the ticket office. In fact had she 'intended' to only buy a childs ticket it obviously would have been easier just to buy one from the machine without the risk of being questioned about her age at the ticket office- she is 18 after all, not 15. I can't speak for the ticket officer who issued her with the childs ticket, maybe he thought he was doing her a favour by saving her some money (which he so obviously hasn't). That is a matter for TfL's internal investigation - if they have even taken the time to discuss it with him. Hope this clears things up, thanks for all your time so far and I look forward to your comments. Gribbly
  7. Hi All, Firstly thanks to Underground, SRPO and Old CodJA for all the useful info on here. Having read all the posts my daughters situation is a little different in that I believe NO offence or intent was committed. She started at King's College in September and we had registered for her Student Oystercard in advance ( we would have bought and paid for it in advance but it can't be done without proof of uni registration, letter of acceptance not being sufficient.) On her first day in London (19/09/2009) she went in to register and went to the ticket office to buy her ticket. She explained she was a student and was going in to register and would be getting a student oystercard once she was able. The ticket officer gave her a ticket and she boarded the tube. On the way in she was asked for her ticket which she presented. The ticket officer had given her a childs ticket which she was unaware of. The officers arrested her read her her rights and escorted her off the tube. They confiscated her ticket interviewed her, whereupon she explained all the circumstances, they took all her details and said they would be writing to her. They then made her buy an adult ticket and escorted on the train to her destination. She now has a valid student oystercard which she has been using since. On Friday she received a Formal warning letter, fining her £60 and a form which she is to sign agreeing to the offence of intent to avoid payment in order to avoid a criminal record. Incidently this was dated 25th so she has a week to respond within the 14 day period of the later. So the way I see it she is not guilty of intent, she bought a ticket at the office having asked the ticket officers advice. Therefore the fault lies with TfL, the contract was made at point of sale and the officers who arrested her acted illegally in taking her ticket from her. As she was sold an invalid ticket the contract was broken by TfL and not by my daughter. The fine is neither here nor there but the acceptance of guilt and the principal of injustice is, not to mention the stress and anguish it caused on her first day in London and her first time away from home. She has never been in any trouble before and is an exemplary individual. So basically, what is the best way to proceed? Should she just pay the £60 and swallow the bile of injustice or should we fight it? Thanks, Gribbly
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