Unfortunately, from one of the links above there is a judgement citing several cases where the lack of lawful money and/or commercial redemption arguments were rejected by the U.S. courts.

https://ecf.utd.uscourts.gov/cgi-bin/show_public_doc?2008cv0574-18

Most of this doesn't make happy reading. The fact is all a bank has to do is make a bookkeeping entry, and provided you actually pay it all, it gets the value of its bookkeeping entry in pounds, plus interest on the money that didn't exist. This is subject to reserve requirements which limit the amount of credit that can be created.

I don't see it as unreasonable to expect that the money you borrowed actually existed before you borrowed it.

Also, unless I've missed something, the bank risks literally nothing if creates credit in this way instead of lending pre-existing money. Yet the borrower risks significant hardship due to a change in circumstances, a credit record that won't let you get a contract mobile phone, CCJ's, harrassment by debt collectors, and even bankruptcy. This seems to me to be a major imbalance of both risk and power. Everything is weighted heavily in favour of the bank. I was wondering if UTCCR would apply, but I'm guessing not as credit creation isn't an explicit term in the contract.

Hi Sunflower99, glad you've barclayshark under control:)

I don't like DCA's:lol: Capella are harrassing me, and CDCS are ignoring me (both sharkly's not sharklycard)

I'm thinking about trying to use privity of contract to get rid of them, if possible. If the DCA is not a party to the contract then they can't sue or be sued on it, unless the contract has a term which provides for this. If they can't show a contract, then there can't be term that permits their involvement, surely?

Posted this in legal issues, but no replies yet.

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/247193-privity-contract-dcas.html

they should be in a reply to a SAR if you have asked for all information held on you, but company's are very selective on what they think they can get away with sending, different company's send out different info in they're reply but i don't think any company sends it all.

That's why when you send the SAR, you specify that you want everything, including DN, CCA etc.

Anything they don't send, you ask once more then complain to the information commissioner.

I think I've silenced them for the time being:D

No statements for December or January

It's Barclays Bank's turn now:rolleyes:

As I understand it, privity of contract means that someone who is not a party to a contract can neither sue nor be sued on it. But with a few exceptions.

If they benefit from the contract, or they or their class of business is specified in it, then they can sue because of Contract (rights of 3rd parties) regs.

The question is: can I use this to get rid of a debt collector?

There is no signed contract for the debt that I'm aware of (have cca'd) and if there's no contract then 3rd parties can't be mentioned in it.

The debt is an overdraft with disputed charges.

Also, if a term says the creditor could use a dca where appropriate, but doesn't say the debtor could do the same (maybe to recover an unfair penalty charge or something?) then would that be an unfair term under UTCCR?

Just an idea, can you apply to the court for a delay of some kind. Give a clear and simple explanation of the circumstances.

There is something called a "time order", but I'm not sure what that is, it might be what you need. Or maybe you could ask the court for a stay?

If you can justify the claim that you can't pay now but you will be able to on or soon after 30th April, that should strengthen your case.

You say the solicitors will accept deferred payment but will still go to court for a CCJ? Accepting deferred payment sounds to me like a new agreement to settle the issue. Therefore, what purpose could court action serve if you really can deliver the goods on 1st April? Surely none. They could easily wait 'til 1st May and sue you if you don't pay. IMHO the only thing they can gain from legal action in the circumstances you describe is to punish you for not paying quickly enough. Almost like revenge really. That kind of thing gets me mad. I think it is an abuse of the judicial process. I don't know if you can use that or not.

Those are my ideas anyway. It will take a much more experienced cagger than me to actually help you with any of this, but don't worry; there are loads of them and in my experience they are very good.

Got a postcard today from power2contact. They have ignored my complaint letter and say they're coming Wednesday. They will be getting another letter of complaint. I'm thinking in terms of harassment, as the original letter was clearly intended to intimidate, the usual "SOMEONE WILL VISIT YOUR HOME TO COLLECT THE DEBT" kind of stuff. And now they've ignored my complaint letter saying they're coming anyway.

This is in spite of my anti-doorstep letter saying:

There are no circumstances under which I would do any of the following with a doorstep caller:

· Confirm identity

· Discuss any aspect of any financial matter

· Offer or make payment in any form

Followed by the standard CAG anti-doorstep letter.

Me thinks they are trying to annoy me! They're doing a pretty good job.

Any views on a harassment complaint sent to the FOS?

Latest Update

Just Received Yest A Application From Birm Court For Metro Collection To Have The Case Set Aside On The Grounds That They Can Defend And They Did Not Have Enough Time Etc Dg Solicitors

That somehow seems a bit crooked to me. Would a debtor realistically be able to do the same thing?

Thanks guys

I sent Credit Solutions the standard doorstep letter. I got this back.

Please note, Power 2 Contact are our sister company who assist in our field visits, Credit Solutions Ltd offers a door step collection service whereby field agents visit a property to discuss repayment of an outstanding amount. This is simply another option available to our customers to assist them in repaying their debts.

 

In relation to field visits in subsection 2.12 of Office of Fair Tradings' guidelines doorstep visits must give adequate notice of the time and date of visit.

 

The Armstrong v Sheppard (1959) case you quoted is dependant on each individual circumstance and only such order to refuse access can come from a Court and not from the individual.

Is there any truth in the last paragraph, and how would you respond to it?

You're probably right about getting short shrift.

I knew about the credit [problem] before I found nuke em's thread, but it is interesting as he is correct about the basic principle.

One of the most interesting documents I've seen the affidavit of Walker F Todd. What's interesting is that Walker Todd is that he worked for the federal reserve. The affidavit is from the US and therefore is not considered a legally binding precedent for the UK, but the statements made are qualified statements made under oath and under penalty of perjury. It remains unrebutted. It's interesting enough to be worth reading to the end.

http://www.restoreliberty.us/files/commercial_law/other/affidavit_of_walker_todd_on_federal_reserve.pdf

The questions are about credit creation. i.e. Did the money they claim I borrowed really exist? Would it have existed if I hadn't borrowed it?

The bank has not surprisingly ignored the question of money creation, even though I've offered token payment against any debt that is real.

So I'm looking at whether I could force a senior executive who would have the appropriate knowledge to answer some of those kinds of questions under oath.

What I don't know is whether I can do this, whether I would need to start a case against them or wait for them to sue me, and whether I could afford the legal fees.

Hi. My bank is ignoring questions I am asking because they are difficult.

What I want to know is whether it's possible to subpoena a senior executive, possibly even the CEO, to force them to answer questions under oath.

Hopefully the threat of this would force answers. Also, if it is possible, what would it be likely to cost?

shinobi101 , dont go around bringing extra info/ facts to research/discuss on this thread, you will get hammered! lol

I'd better not tell hefty hippo that dun & bradstreet is a credit reference agency, not a directory. And I'd really better not mention that major financial services companies in the uk use the D&B rating to assess a company's credit worthiness.

They'll eat me alive:lol:

The MOJ' D&B credit report also says it was "incorporated for business" in the year 1600! (It's not a typo, that's 410 years ago)

It all looks good until you try it and find yourself in a cell.

Why is John Harris not in a cell then? Take a look at the TPUC site.

www.tpuc.org | News for positive people

I must admit their attitude to risk really surpised me at the time. Knowing what my account was like I don't see how they thought I would keep payments going for 5 years.

I was living on overtime back then, of course there's not much of that left.

Vil - Maybe it's an acronym? Vile Ignorant Losers?

I haven't heard from them or Moorcroft yet. Maybe next time I'll print off a letter I sent to a previous DCA and just make changes in pen. i.e. cross out the name and date, and just write the new one in. Although I did that with someone working for barclays last week and just got 2 more threatograms with no other reply.

I got to the point where I had way too much debt years ago.

From that point, I had two pre-approved loans, and several pre-approved overdraft increases. It is all with the same bank. All the extra credit was simply a tick in a box, no questions asked.

By the time I took the most recent pre-approved loan my current account was overdrawn by a grand or more at the end of an average month.

I think I would have looked like a very poor credit risk, due to being overburdened already and the poor management of my current account.

Admitted, I was very stupid to accept these offers, and yes it's my own fault, and yes I have fully and finally learned my lesson.

My question is whether the bank acted improperly in offering me more debt when I had too much already. And of course, how can I use this against them?

Everything was in writing:D

If I get another DCA contact I'll send it direct to Amex, and a "get lost" letter to the DCA.

dear sir,

 

with regard to your letter unlawfully terminating my agreement./demanding payment in full of sums not yet due under the argeement

 

 

I accept your unlawful rescission of the agreement and consider myself no longer bound by the terms of any alleged agreement

 

The agreement, if indeed it ever existed is now terminated

 

please advise me of the genuine arrears which were outstanding at the time of termination .

 

yours etc

 

 

delete as applicable

Thanks DD, no I didn't send Amex anything like that. I threatened one of their DCA's with counterclaim for unlawful recission. They've been quiet for a few months now. Should I send the acceptance of unlawful recission letter, or just leave it for now. The CCA is unenforceable.

Debt relief orders

Thanks AC

After telling mercers to get lost I had a letter from Scotcall saying they would make a doorstep visit. I sent them the letter below, copied to Barclaycard complaints dept and to mercers. Only heard from Barclaycard after that.

My extra "doorstep" bit is in bold. hope it's of some help:)

You appear to be acting on the assumption some relationship you may have with “Mercers” is in some way related to me. I am not a party to any such relationship. Mercers are a third party interloper to an alleged contract between the ens legis ‘Mr Shinobi101’ and Barclaycard. No signed contract appears to exist, and therefore no legal obligation exists between ‘Mr Shinobi101’ and Barclaycard, at least until the said contract is produced.

You appear to believe that a “doorstep visit” would apply sufficient psychological pressure to elicit some kind of payment, or at least agreement. This is not the case.

There are no circumstances under which I would do any of the following with a doorstep caller:

• Confirm identity

• Discuss any aspect of any financial matter

• Offer or make payment in any form

Furthermore, you should note that under OFT rules, you can only visit me at my home if you make an appointment and I have no wish to make such an appointment with you.

There is only an implied license under English Common Law for people to be able to visit me on my property without express permission; the postman and people asking for directions etc (Armstrong v Sheppard & Short Ltd [1959] 2 QB 384. per Lord Evershed M.R.).

Therefore take note that I revoke license under Common Law for you, or your representatives to visit me at my property and, if you do so, you will be liable to damages for a tort of trespass and action will be taken, including but not limited to, police attendance.

This account is in dispute with Barclaycard and will remain so until they send a complete copy of an agreement which is enforceable under CCA1974 s127(3)

Attempting collection activity on a disputed account is a breach of the Consumer Protection From Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 in line with the Office Of Fair Trading's debt collection guidelines, but also in breach of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and Data Protection Act 1998

As Barclaycard are now in default of my Consumer Credit Act agreement request and have also breached *s10 Data Protection Act request , I consider this account to be in SERIOUS DISPUTE.

As you are aware while my Consumer Credit Act request remains in default enforcement action is NOT permitted, under s127 this constitutes a complete defence at law.

Consequentially any legal action you pursue will be averred as both UNLAWFUL and VEXATIOUS.

Now I would respectfully suggest that this account is returned to Barclaycard for resolution of these defaults and breaches, as you or your client cannot lawfully pursue any enforcement activities.

If you choose to ignore my dispute and attempt enforcement, I will initiate legal action and file reports with the appropriate authorities, including, but not limited to, Trading Standards, Office of Fair Trading, Information Commissioners Office, Financial Ombudsman Service and possible court action.

After taking advice, I am of the opinion that any continued pursuit is in violation of the Consumer Protection From Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 in line with the Office Of Fair Trading’s Collection Guidelines

I hope that this will not be necessary and an acceptable solution can be accomplished.

I trust I will hear nothing more from you before I receive a true and complete copy of a valid consumer credit agreement from Barclaycard.

If a valid agreement is received and if money is lawfully owed, a financial statement may be provided direct to Barclaycard, and a pro-rata offer may then be made, payable direct to Barclaycard. Debt Collector’s fees will not be paid as their services are not necessary in this matter. All Barclaycard need to do if they desire payment, is send the alleged agreement as requested.

Phone calls - Refuse to answer security questions.

Answer "can I speak to..." with "who's calling please?"

"Sorry he/she's not available at the moment" "try tomorrow" (the supply of "tomorrows" is inexhaustable:))

"Oh she left a message for you, said something about dealing with you in writing only or something, I'll tell her you called anyway.."

There was something in the papers a while ago about debt relief orders.

The idea was the courts would order fairly small un-payable debts to be written off after a year.

Anyone know anything about this?

Hi

On a further note sent a lot of CCA requests with the £1 po I wonder if I am just going to start a lot more hassle for myself.

They will give you hassle anyway. That's what they do. They don't care if you owe the money etc, they've been asked to collect.

A good reason to be on CAG is they help you fight back. Their threats are generally form letters that they send in sequence. Start a thread for each debt and ask for help as you need it.

I've had most threatograms, loads of help from other caggers, and now 2 credit cards can't touch me for a total of about £16K.

Try to chill out, just respond to their letters with your own letters, get help here.