Hi Halibutt This is what i am referring to from that document link 62 Duty to supply copy of unexecuted agreement (1) If the unexecuted agreement is presented personally to the debtor or hirer for his signature, but on the occasion when he signs it the document does not become an executed agreement, a copy of it, and of any other document referred to in it, must be there and then delivered to him. (2) If the unexecuted agreement is sent to the debtor or hirer for his signature, a copy of it, and of any other document referred to in it, must be sent to him at the same time. (3) A regulated agreement is not properly executed if the requirements of this section are not observed. 63 Duty to supply copy of executed agreement (1) If the unexecuted agreement is presented personally to the debtor or hirer for his signature, and on the occasion when he signs it the document becomes an executed agreement, a copy of the executed agreement, and of any other document referred to in it, must be there and then delivered to him. (2) A copy of the executed agreement, and of any other document referred to in it, must be given to the debtor or hirer within the seven days following the making of the agreement unless— (a) subsection (1) applies, or (b) the unexecuted agreement was sent to the debtor or hirer for his signature and, on the occasion of his signing it, the document became an executed agreement. (3) In the case of a cancellable agreement, a copy under subsection (2) must be sent by post. (4) In the case of a credit-token agreement, a copy under subsection (2) need not be given within the seven days following the making of the agreement if it is given before or at the time when the credit-token is given to the debtor. (5) A regulated agreement is not properly executed if the requirements of this section are not observed. 64 Duty to give notice of cancellation rights (1) In the case of a cancellable agreement, a notice in the prescribed form indicating the right of the debtor or hirer to cancel the agreement, how and when that right is exercisable, and the name and address of a person to whom notice of cancellation may be given,— (a) must be included in every copy given to the debtor or hirer under section 62 or 63, and (b) except where section 63(2) applied, must also be sent by post to the debtor or hirer within the seven days following the making of the agreement. (2) In the case of a credit-token agreement, a notice under subsection (1)(b) need not be sent by post within the seven days following the making of the agreement if either— (a) it is sent by post to the debtor or hirer before the credit-token is given to him, or (b) it is sent by post to him together with the credit-token. (3) Regulations may provide that except where section 63(2) applied a notice sent under subsection (1)(b) shall be accompanied by a further copy of the executed agreement, and of any other document referred to in it. (4) Regulations may provide that subsection (1)(b) is not to apply in the case of agreements such as are described in the regulations, being agreements made by a particular person, if— (a) on an application by that person to the Director, the Director has determined that, having regard to— (i) the manner in which antecedent negotiations for agreements with the applicant of that description are conducted, and (ii) the information provided to debtors or hirers before such agreements are made, the requirement imposed by subsection (1)(b) can be dispensed with without prejudicing the interests of debtors or hirers; and (b) any conditions imposed by the Director in making the determination are complied with. (5) A cancellable agreement is not properly executed if the requirements of this section are not observed. If no creditors had to send customer copies of anything, and I never had copes back from any of mine, what is the above about then? I am confused? T

Hi there! That's great - thanks The cancellation rights has been puzzling me. I have been looking at this today. http://www.johnantell.co.uk/CCA1974.htm this seems to day that the should have given details of how to cancel and whom to write to on this application form which they want to say is a properly executed agreement? All the box states is that cancellation details will be sent in the post. is that acceptable and compliant? This document has also alerted me to section 63 and 63 Am i right in reading this to mean that once i had signed and sent off the application form that they should have sent me another letter or form to sign which should have been a properly executed agreement with all the right credit amounts and other prescribed terms and the cancellation rights again? many thanks T still a bit ps - yes, thank you, i shall write to the OFT or they will all just get away with it!

Hello I have received copies of the application forms which the OC and DCA believe are properly executed credit agreements. one was a charge card account the other was a "personal reserve account" where you wrote cheques. CCA1 dated 1997 - charge card account later they changed it of their own will to a credit card There is no credit limit, no loan amount, no interest rate on the form. i.e. four corners of the form There is a box with the title "Your right to cancel" This box then states "Once you have signed this agreement you will have a short time to cancel it. Exact details of how and when you can do this will be sent to you by post by the Company" CCA 2 1998 This is a personal reserve account where you wrote cheques as and when to pay for whatever There is no credit limit, no loan amount, no interest rate on the form. i.e. four corners of the form Again there is a box with the title "Your right to cancel" This box then states "Once you have signed this agreement you will have a short time to cancel it. Exact details of how and when you can do this will be sent to you by post by the Company" Plus these debts seem to be passed around various DCA's and i already wrote to one this time last year confirming the accounts were in dispute as they had failed to provide properly executed CCA's. I need to write back to the new DCA Any ideas on this anyone and especially the cancellation rights bit? T

Hi Supasnooper Thanks for yoru help today. The court hearings for the charges have been and gone - now they have the charging order they are putting the screws on to get money out of me that i simply don't have. That's why i am after some info to try again and get the judge or someone to agree to £1 pm I am not keen on going back to the CCCS - it was them who said oh it'll be fine, they very rarely go for order of sale and other stuff and the reason why I have other CCJ's which i now know i could have easily fought due to lack of properly executed CCA contracts. Does anyone else have any other info or suggestions please? T

teeny bump

Hi Zamzara Great - That's very handy, I would very much like to read all about that - how do I get the information about the rules and regs Schedule 5? Are there any links you can help me out with perhaps or is it available on the web or do I also need to write to them and ask them for this information too? T

Hi Zamzara This year I have not got to any of those stages yet - they came round and got all the info they requested, they made whatever assumptions they did and sent a new assessment asking for money With this new assessment the letter also said a) please send us more info, they did a list. I sent this all to them and they have returned the originals. b) if you don't agree with the figures let us know. Therefore I sent the info above and I said no their assessment was wrong and here's the info to justify it. Due to the hell they put me through last year I also requested various info and details of their asessment and calculations in advance. Not a peep since. If I request info I am entitled to under Data Protection Act there is zero reason why they should not supply it or are they above and exempt form this Act? I want that info now becasue i want to know what the hell they are up to and that's no way unreasonable. Why should they wish to withhold information requsts regarding generic information under the Freedom of Information Act? What are they hiding here then? What reason would they withhold information regarding calculations, assessments and assumptions if they are so sure they are correct? Money from my mum and other help from my family is defo not income. If I earned enough income they would not have to send me charity money. It is a gift not income. Anyhow, looks like I need to send them a polite reminder! T

Hi Supasnooper Thanks for those – some of it I understand, some I don’t. To clarify there are 2 charges in total on the property :- 1) the main mortgage 2) a personal loan which they have now turned into a charge via the court Is there a sample letter or wording somewhere where I can write to the sols and say I can only offer £1 and no more. If you go for an order for sale there will be no money for you as the negative equity means the first charge mortgage will not be paid let alone you and your clients? .. and of course any other law or proper wording I can quote use? they already know I have no money, they are using bullying tactics. Surely by going for an order for sale they are not acting very well for their clients as it will not recover any money for them? Also is there a form or something somewhere that I can use to go back to the court effectively saying I keep offering £1pm and perhaps where you put in a financial statement form etc - varying the payment or something? All help appreciated! T

Hi Zamzara They don't target fraudsters, they treat everyone as benefit cheats and you have to prove otherwise or they get the bailiffs in! Well exactly. That's my point. They have made various very incorrect assumptions regrding my income and have totally disregarded my accounts which include the business expenses. I went through all my bank statements and income and everything with the person they sent. Complete and utter waste of time. It also looks like they are also trying to treat the money my mum gives me so that i can actually survive as income and my brithday money and I have had this checked and no way can it be classed as earned income or benefits - i get working tax credit. I went all through this hassel last year and in the end it turns out that what they forced me to pay I was not due to and they had to give me a refund plus full benefits. It only got sorted cos i made a massive complaint when they sent the bailiffs letters etc. Funny they demand this and that and the other but when you ask for copies of thier calculations and assumtions and various other awkard information under Data protection and Freedom of Information they go very very quiet! They can't say they have not had my letter and thus info requests cos they returned the original documentation I sent them with proof of stuff they have asked for. T

Quick update here Complete utter and total waste of time and space. Yes, it was nothing more than a fishing expedition to snoop round my house. So they came round and I gave them all the info they asked for – I even photocopied it for them. Then I got their life story and although they had only ever worked for the council and only for a few years, with no degrees or professional qualification may I please add, they then started trying to dole out careers advice! Off they go then they write back with more stupid questions, want more info and looks like they have made a whole host of wholly unjustified and unverified assumptions, all in their favour of course, and now want me to cough up money when I know full well that my income levels are below that which are needed to be entitled to full benefits. I went through all of this hassle last year and here we go again! Have asked them for shed loads of documents and information under Freedom of Information and also Data Protection Act – guess what – not so forthcoming – zero reply! So instead of trying to help people, especially those in financial difficulty in this recession, it seems they are targeted on whom they can get away with bullying and getting money out of and not helping you and treat everyone like some benefits cheat. Not happy. T

Looking for some ideas on what to do next if anyone can help? Had a loan and couldn’t pay so offered £1 pm as it was all I can afford. Agreement was pukka. Didn’t know how to fight it and they got a CCJ, offered £1 pm again and immediately went for a charging order. CCCS said all would be OK – yeah right! So this is a now 2nd charge. Now they say if I don’t offer them more they will get an order of sale. Thing is the house is already mortgaged up to the hilt, there is £25,000 negative equity plus all the costs that they would have in selling so if they did go back to court and get the order to sell it and flogged it off they’d get nothing cos the first charge mortgage wouldn’t be covered and there would be a massive shortfall. I can’t offer them more than £1pm as I don’t earn enough. I already have other CCJ’s courtesy of listening to the CCCS which I am paying £1pm and the amounts on those CCJ’s are more than this one. Any ideas on what I should write and tell them? Or should I go straight back to the court and get them to make them accept £1 pm? Bit of a mess - What to do? T

Thank you!

Thanks Supasnooper – that’s great! I have copies of the recorded delivery documents and their signatures etc as proof of received it which I can show the judge. I also sent in the court with everything twice with the AQ including the Draft Order Directions requesting documents be produced or the case be struck out – this is what the judge is ignoring. Any advice re that? T

Hello everyone Quick update AQ went in with draft accompanying letter and Order for Directions and result was a one month stay was given. Still received no reply to the CPR 31.14 from DCA’s sols so sent back another AQ by the stated date and the upshot is a Case Management Conference. What’s that all about then? Why is the court choosing to completely ignore the fact that the DCA’s sols are completely ignoring the CPR31.14? Are they effectively allowing the case to go ahead without the DCA's sols providing anyone with any proof of anything? Any ideas anyone? T

Hi Angel Quick update - progress has been made! The fight is still on for the additions charges but we won the PPI - Hooray! Full refund for umpteen years being refunded plus interest. Please everyone, don't give up and most certainly don't let them fob you off with clap trap! Best wishes T

Hi JQ Sorry, perhaps I phrased that all wrongly. I have no problem sending them accounts, bank statements, documents etc for income verifcation / council tax benefit renewal purposes ..... what I do not want grubby council people snooping round my house! The tone and attitude of their letter, all fait au compli, all "this is what we are doing, you make sure you are in and waiting for 3 1/2 hours", is not acceptable. Therefore I am trying to find out what my rights are and what rights of entry they have etc etc. T

Apparently the council want to come along and visit me instead of sending a renewal form for my council tax benefit. Lucky old me! However, I do not want strange people in my house (and especially not men) and it is not a council house or rented. It is a private property. Do I have to agree to this and does anyone know what legislation says I do? I have no problem sending info, I do not want strange people snooping round my house! I have no idea what my rights are here. Any ideas???? T

Regretably in my experience no matter what you send them and how many times you send it, Cabsnot, having failed to undertake adequate due diligence before purchasing a debt, will tell you anything and everything (even though it’s a pile of old toot) to try and justify that the agreement is enforceable and fully compliant with the CCA 1974 to try and get you to cough up anything. Despite having no real case and no properly executed agreement do not be surprised if Cabsnot issue court proceedings via Northampton. If they think there is any way they can get away with it or get a judgement by default they will try and wing it. Then once the court proceedings start they will ignore the CPR and still try it on so you have to try and get the judge to order them to supply it. Why? Because the OFT will not get off their fat taxpayer funded backsides and do anything about them and other similar DCA’s. The only plus side to this is the more time it takes you to adminster the defence of the case the more you can claim back in costs! Now if the MOJ started making these DCA’s prove the debt and supply fully compliant enforceable agreements at the point the claim was started then all these firms would be in administration quicker than you could say “properly executed agreement” !!!! Now there's a thought ...... Perhaps we all ought to be writing to Jack Straw? T

That’s really quite shocking – I think that if a judge is not fully familiar the law surrounding a case they should at least have the professional decency to pass it to a fellow judge who does. If they are entrusted by the people of this country with the honour and responsibility of passing judgements as the enforceability or not of a case based upon the relevant points of law then they should be competent and not enforce their own personal moral judgements and opinions. I would definitely appeal! T

Hi Colouredcob I sent a copy of the will and death certificate off to the bank and they have frozen the account and cancelled all of the DDM’s, SO’s etc. with immediate effect. I have written to all the utilities companies and informed them of the death and confirmed to them that they will not receive any payment until such times as probate has been granted (appx 8 weeks) and the monies transferred into the Executor Account. If they want it before – tough. They are going to have to wait! I hope this helps. T

Hello wvm You will find the people and guidance on here to be fabulous so don't worry. You are not alone, loads of poeple are in your position. I have no idea about Chase Saunders but if you feel you can't do it yourself there are firms like Payplan who will do debt management plans for free so there is no need to pay for it. However, it may be prudent to also check that the agreements are in fact enforcable. There are template letters on the site you can use to request the documentation to check this. I would consider the roof over my head to be more important than my credit card payments. I was with CCCS and in a right mess until I found CAG, if I had known then what I know now from this invaluable site I could have stopped the harassment from hell and 3 CCJ's! I am sure someone much more experienced will pop along soon with some excellent advice for you. T

Hi Angel1 it's a bit long but you could try looking through my thread http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/200609-cabot-court-case.html I recieved a claim, acknolwdged it and then sent a CPR31.14 as suggested by fab people on this site. I just sent by recorded delviery which should be more than sufficient and I have printed off the proof of reciept. As the extra 14 days ran out and no response from sols so I sent the embarrassed defence. Check tyour POC and my thread - from memory on mine the guys here said they are not entitled to claim s69 interest All again ignored and we have just submitted allocation questionnaires and I have put in a draft order for directions due to non compliance with CPR31.14 ...... they have not repsonded 'cos the documents they have are pants! Hope this helps but you will see various members who have helped and are fab! T

If you have incurred bank charges previously and have not reclaimed those charges you could always do so under a hardship case basis - then this time you'd be charging them interest! T

Whilst the MOJ can now be seen to regularly send out warning shots and shut down claims firms from potentially misleading consumers it is a huge shame that the OFT don’t take the same proactive stance with lying cheating ****** DCA’s who tell far bigger porky pies to consumers, harass and falsely threaten them to extract whatever they can day in day out and especially with the ever increasing evidence they now recieve with constant complaints from consumers and even a Channel 4 TV program! T

At last, some progress in the right direction UK Parliament - tc0809pn080809 http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200809/cmselect/cmtreasy/766/766.pdf T