Also more than happy to provide an exact transcript of the Judges summing up of this if anybody is interested in it

Have considered it. Is it worth it ? What's the likelihood of success ?

I almost forgot. They wanted to impose extra costs at the end for my apparently "wasting the courts time for even bringing it to court" At one point it even looked like he was considering this but came down on the side of "I had a few relevant points" so knocked this back !

Honestly he didn't want to know. They could have brought anything and he'd have accepted it. He was more than happy that Carey allowed you to use anything reconstituted as long as it had a signature and address. I was shocked he can't have taken much notice if any of my witness statement

Thanks. That's the thing also. When he said the full amount plus cost was payable he took immense pleasure in informing me the full amount MUST be paid within 28 days. Little other option. Honestly it was horrific.

Absolutely awful that. Judge was vile. Upheld everything they claimed. Statute barred runs from default notice termination not last payment. BMW case is good to use with credit cards too. Carey was also good to use with any old agreement thrown together. Even pre 2007 ones. Lost on everything. Still in shock

Thank you. Final question. How long do these things generally last ?

Hi The date in court for this is later this week. Any final tips or advice anyone can offer ? What to expect ? Will I have to talk much or will the judge see from the witness statement my argument ? Cheers

Many thanks Andy. Do I reel off a copy to cohen, the court and keep one for myself ?

This is my draft WS "IN THE ******* county court Claim No. *********** BETWEEN: Claimant Hoist Portfolio Holding 2 Ltd AND Defendant ************ _________________________ ________ WITNESS STATEMENT OF ********** _________________________ ________ I ******, being the Defendant in this case will state as follows; I make this Witness Statement in support of my defence in the claim. The claimants witness statement confirms that it mostly relies on hearsay evidence as confirmed by the drafts person in the opening paragraph. It is my understanding that they must serve notice to any hearsay evidence pursuant to CPR 33.2(1)(B) (notice of intention to rely on hearsay evidence) and Section 2 (1) (A) of the Civil Evidence Act. 1. The Claimants witness statement (point 9) states the last payment received on account was on the 30th November 2010. The Claimant's claim was issued on 10th January 2017. The Defendant contends that the Claimant's claim so issued is a claim in contract and is statute barred pursuant to the provisions of section 5 of the limitation act 1980. If, which is denied, the claimant contends that the Defendant is in breach of the alleged contract, in excess of 6 years have elapsed since the date on which any cause of action for breach accrued for the benefit of the Claimant. Therefore, the Claimant's claim to be entitled to payment of £2719.48 or any other sum, or relief of any kind is denied. I understand that the claimant is an Assignee, a buyer of defunct or bad debts who are based in Jersey, which are bought on mass portfolios at a much reduced cost to the amount claimed and which the original creditors have already wrote off as a capital loss and claimed against taxable income as confirmed in the claimants witness statement exhibit by way of the Deed of Assignment As an assignee or creditor as defined in section 189 of the CCA this applies to this new requirement on assignment of rights. This means that when an assignee purchases debts (or otherwise acquires rights under a credit agreement) it also acquires certain obligations to the borrower including the duty to comply with CCA requirements (such as the rules on statements and notices and other post-contractual information). The assignee becomes the creditor under the agreement. This ensures that essential consumer protections under the CCA cannot be circumvented by assigning the debt to a third party. 2. The claimant contends that the claim is for the sum of £2719.48 in respect of monies owing under an alleged agreement with the account no. XXXXXXXXXX pursuant to The consumer credit Act 1974 (CCA).The particulars of claim fail to state when the alleged agreement was entered into but their witness statement states it was 9th March 2006 with Morgan Stanley Bank International Limited 11 years ago. The evidence they have provided by way of a signed agreement exhibited “DJH1” indicates it was 19th October 2005 with Blackhorse. Attached to this are Barclaycard terms and conditions. It is of my opinion that this “mix and match” creation can no way be taken as serious evidence of any monies owing. 4. On the xxxxxxx I made a formal written request to the Claimant for them to provide me with a copy of my Consumer Credit Agreement as entitled to do so under sections 78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974. The claimant has since disclosed a copy of the application which purports to be the agreement within its witness statement at point 4 exhibit DJH1 and admits it’s very poor quality. It is averred that it is impossible to read and illegible. The court is invited to try and decipher the contents and in particular the prescribed terms pursuant to section 78 CCA1974 and sec 61 (1) c of the CCA1974. 5. Furthermore the author of the witness statement at point 5 then tries to introduce a reconstituted version of the agreement (exhibit AJP1) which is no more than a set of Terms and Conditions and in no way comply with the prescribed terms of a reconstituted version which they have previously tried to rely on at point 6 of their witness statement. 6. The claimant tries to get around the poor quality by trying to rely on Carey v HSBC. Carey V HSBC is irrelevant in this matter and only applies to the giving of information under section 77/78/79 and is not retrospective to agreements entered into pre April 2007.I therefore contend that section 127 (1 and 2) accordingly applies in this case. 10. Contained within the claimants particulars the claimant pleads that The defendant has failed to make contractual payments under the terms of the agreement and that a default notice has been served upon the defendant pursuant to S.87(1) CCA. It goes on to evidence a default notice in their exhibits which is provided by Mercers and not the actual creditor Barclaycard themselves. It is therefore contended that the original creditor failed to serve a valid Default Notice pursuant to section 87(1) Service of a notice on the debtor or hirer in accordance with section 88 (a “default notice ”) is necessary before the creditor or owner can become entitled, by reason of any breach by the debtor or hirer of a regulated agreement. Given that Mercers are in fact a Debt Collect Agency they cannot be considered to be the creditor or owner of the regulated agreement. 11. Notwithstanding that this alleged debt is statute barred pursuant to the provisions of section 5 of the limitation act 1980, the Claimants pleaded case is that the Defendant entered into an agreement with Morgan Stanley Bank International Limited under account reference **********. I am uncertain as to which account this refers to. It is accepted that I have had banking products with Barclaycard in the past however I have no recollection the alleged account number the claimant refers to. Therefore the claimant is put to strict proof to disclose a true executed legible agreement on which its claim relies upon and not try to mislead the court. Statement of Truth I, ********, the Defendant, believe the facts stated within this Witness Statement to be true. Signed: _________________________ _______ Dated: _________________________ _______"

particulars of claim are as follows This claim is for the sum of £1773.21 in respect of monies owing under an agreement with the account number xxxxxxx pursuant to the consumer credit act 1974 The debt was legally assigned by MKDP LLP ex barclaycard to the claimant and notice has been served. The defendant has failed to make contractual payments under the terms of the agreement. A default notice has been served upon the defendant pursuant to s87(1) CCA The claimant claims 1. The sum of £1773,21 2. Interest pursuant to s69 of the county court act 1984 at a rate of 8 percent from the 25/8/11 to the date hereof 1959 days is the sum of £761.27 3. Future interest accruing at the daily rate of .39 4. Costs

I did think their ws states agreement was march 2006!but what they are providing shows 2005. Can I use this in my ws ? Am I able to quote their ws in my ws ? Surely I should be the one asking for it to be thrown out as they have after this ?!

Guess this may be why https://www.marketingweek.com/2005/10/20/black-horse-and-morgan-stanley-launch-credit-card/

I thought that. They are saying it's Morgan Stanley for barclaycard in the ws but what they have thrown together shows black horse. Under part 2 the agreement it says "This is a credit agreement between us Morgan Stanley bank international" But has a black horse logo ? Confused

Hoist WS attached hoist WS .pdf

Will this do ? I have left out the statememts, default notice they have provided cause they offer nothing more really Thanks for your help. hearing is 13th of july so my WS has to be there Friday I think

Yes today - I have it with me looking my last payment date was through a debt management agency in November 2010. So statute barred November 2016. I didn't receive the moneyclaim from Hoist until January 2017 earlier this year.

Yes sorry I was replying as you posted

Arent I also admitting the money is owed if I wade in with "my last payment was xx/xx/xx" ? Cant I just claim its stautute barred and then its up to them to prove its not ?

I agree but at that point I wasn't sure of the date of my last payment nor the default date so didn't want to risk it - im still not because the apparent statements hoists have sent have no payments on them. Therefore I don't have a definite date to give although I would guess its 2007/8 ish. Not sure my guessing will be taken as solid evidence

Hi So far having followed threads on here I've managed to deal with a hoist claim on a card from 2005 for £1800 before court fees on moneyclaim online for £2800. They were supposed to have paid a fee by 15th June otherwise it would be struck out similar to a thread on here by "musicam" I rang the court a few days after said date and they hadn't paid although the lady said there was some leeway in case they had paid by cheque. I rang again yesterday still having heard nothing expecting to be told it was struck out but was informed its going ahead as they have paid the court fee. How they are allowed extra time to do this when I have received a letter stating it would be struck out by 15th June if the fee is not paid I have no idea ?! today I received hoists witness statement. I wonder if it would be ok to send the witness statement "andyorch" provided for "musicam" as the cases seem pretty much the same. In mine they also rely on Carey v HSB and concede what they have is poor quality and illegible. They also have no default notice from the original creditor Barclaycard, only a default notice from mercers dated 18/3/11. Despite the default from mercers being 2011 - The last payment to this card would have been nearly 10 years ago with no contact since - is it too late to add any statue barred defence to this witness statement ? Athe court date is the 2nd week in July. Does my witness statement have to be in 14 days before which makes it pretty much now ? Hoist also made an offer to accept £1508 full and final settlement when they sent their "evidence" which makes me think they don't really want to go to court. Am I ok to go with ? "IN THE ******* county court Claim No. *********** BETWEEN: Claimant Hoist Portfolio Holding 2 Ltd AND Defendant ************ _________________________ ________ WITNESS STATEMENT OF ********** _________________________ ________ I ******, being the Defendant in this case will state as follows; I make this Witness Statement in support of my defence in the claim. The claimants witness statement confirms that it mostly relies on hearsay evidence as confirmed by the drafts person in the opening paragraph.It is my understanding that they must serve notice to any hearsay evidence pursuant to CPR 33.2(1)(B) (notice of intention to rely on hearsay evidence) and Section 2 (1) (A) of the Civil Evidence Act. 1. I understand that the claimant is an Assignee, a buyer of defunct or bad debts who are based in Jersey, which are bought on mass portfolios at a much reduced cost to the amount claimed and which the original creditors have already wrote off as a capital loss and claimed against taxable income as confirmed in the claimants witness statement exhibit by way of the Deed of Assignment As an assignee or creditor as defined in section 189 of the CCA this applies to this new requirement on assignment of rights. This means that when an assignee purchases debts (or otherwise acquires rights under a credit agreement) it also acquires certain obligations to the borrower including the duty to comply with CCA requirements (such as the rules on statements and notices and other post-contractual information). The assignee becomes the creditor under the agreement. This ensures that essential consumer protections under the CCA cannot be circumvented by assigning the debt to a third party. 2. On or around the ******, I received a claims form from the County Court Business Centre, Northampton, for the amount of £****.The claimant contends that the claim is for the sum of £X in respect of monies owing under an alleged agreement with the account no. XXXXXXXXXX pursuant to The consumer credit Act 1974 (CCA).The particulars of claim fail to state when the alleged agreement was entered into but their witness statement states it was 1994 23 years ago. 3. Contained within the claimants particulars the claimant pleads that The defendant has failed to make contractual payments under the terms of the agreement and that a default notice has been served upon the defendant pursuant to S.87(1) CCA. It goes on to evidence a default notice in their exhibits which is provided by Mercers and not the actual creditor Barclaycard themselves.It is therefore contended that the original creditor failed to serve a valid Default Notice pursuant to section 87(1) Service of a notice on the debtor or hirer in accordance with section 88 (a “default notice ”) is necessary before the creditor or owner can become entitled, by reason of any breach by the debtor or hirer of a regulated agreement. Given that Mercers are in fact a Debt Collect Agency they cannot be considered to be the creditor or owner of the regulated agreement. 5. On the xxxxxxxxI made a formal written request by way of a CPR 31.14 to the Claimant solicitors requesting that the Claimant provides copies of all documents mentioned in the statement of case [EXHIBIT A]. 6. On the xxxxxxx I made a formal written request to the Claimant for them to provide me with a copy of my Consumer Credit Agreement as entitled to do so under sections 78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 [EXHIBIT C]. The claimant has since disclosed a copy of the application which purports to be the agreement within its witness statement at point 5 exhibit HT1 and admits its very poor quality.It is averred that it is impossible to read and illegible..the court is invited to try and decipher the contents and in particular the prescribed terms pursuant to section 78 CCA1974 and sec 61 (1) c of the CCA1974. The claimant tries to get around the poor quality by trying to rely on Carey v HSBC.Carey V HSBC is irrelevant in this matter and only applies to the giving of information under section 77/78/79 and is not retrospective to agreements entered into pre April 2007.I therefore contend that section 127 (1 and 2) accordingly applies in this case. 7. Furthermore the author of the witness statement at point 6 then tries to introduce a reconstituted version of the agreement (exhibit HT2) which is no more than a set of Terms and Conditions and in no way comply with the prescribed terms of a reconstituted version which they have previously tried to rely on at point 5 of their witness statement. 8. The Claimants pleaded case is that the Defendant entered into an agreement with HSBC under account reference **********. I am uncertain as to which account this refers to. It is accepted that I have had banking products with Barclaycard in the past however I have no recollection the alleged account number the claimant refers to. Therefore the claimant is put to strict proof to disclose a true executed legible agreement on which its claim relies upon and not try to mislead the court. Until such time the claimant can comply and disclose a true executed copy of the agreement they refer to within the particulars of this claim they are not entitled while the default continues, to enforce the agreement pursuant to section 78.6 (a) of the Credit Consumer Act 1974. Statement of Truth I, ********, the Defendant, believe the facts stated within this Witness Statement to be true. Signed: _________________________ _______ Dated: _________________________ _______" Any advice appreciated For Info The original defence provided my myself was "1. The Defendant contends that the particulars of claim are vague and generic in nature. The Defendant accordingly sets out its case below and relies on CPR r 16.5 (3) in relation to any particular allegation to which a specific response has not been made. 2. Paragraph 1 is noted I have in the past had a contractual relationship with MKDP LLP (Ex Barclaycard). 3. Paragraph 3 is denied as the Defendant maintains that a default notice pursuant to Section 87(1) CCA was never received. 4. On the 18th January 2017 I made a legal request by way of section 78 request to the Claimant. The Claimant has yet to comply with the requested agreement. I have also requested further information to clarify the claimants claim by way of a CPR 31.14, again the Claimant has yet to comply. Therefore the Claimant is put to strict proof to: a) show how the Defendant has entered into an agreement; and b) show how the Defendant has reached the amount claimed for; and c) show and evidence any breach. 5.As per Civil Procedure Rule 16.5(4), it is expected that the Claimant prove the allegation that the money is owed. 6. By reason of the facts and matters set out above, it is denied that the Claimant is entitled to the relief claimed or any relief."

Don't remember having one of those if i'm honest. Deposits ? It would have been long before 2008 - possible that i last used it to withdraw in 2006/2007 no later than that anyway. I would hazard a guess a deposit was last made in 2006. Is it worth me sending a SAR to find out the details or ring Santander ? The account only appeared on my credit file after i stupidly updated my address on a santander flexi savers account i hold with them. Manipulating the default date is very sneaky of them however

This would have been a current account with overdraft though so chance are i wouldnt have made any payments in. As such the default could have been a fair while after i last used the account as its not the same as a loan or CC when you have to pay every month ?

They may still back down. My parents didn't make them the offer. They will make the offer now i think because if my parents wait for their next offer it will be similarly bad i imagine. They are going to get some legal advice first anyway

I don't know the month Would a SAR include the default notice they should have sent me ?