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hsbclinkdcms

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  1. Please re read post 10, you still have not said what influence section 24 has upon section 23 and section 21 other than saying that 24(b) is a catch all when the act makes it clear that this is for exceptional cases. The compensatory rest is not accounted for anywhere else. RMT guidance; 47: What are the circumstances in which compensatory rest may be required? In any case where a worker is required to work during a period that would otherwise be a rest period or rest break, the employer should wherever possible grant an equivalent period of compensatory rest. This includes those situations where workers are excluded from full entitlement because they have been designated as "special case" workers, shift workers or by the operation of a collective agreement. Gov.uk 3. Compensatory rest Workers may be entitled to ‘compensatory rest’ if they don’t have the right to specific rest breaks. Compensatory rest breaks are the same length of time as the break (or part of it) that they’ve missed. A worker may be entitled to compensatory rest if: they’re a shift worker and can’t take daily or weekly rest breaks between ending one shift and starting another their workplace is a long way from their home (eg an oil rig) they work in different places which are a reasonable distance from each other they’re doing security and surveillance-based work they’re working in an industry which is very busy at certain times of the year – like agriculture, retail, postal services or tourism they need to work because there’s an exceptional event, an accident or a risk that an accident is about to happen the job needs round-the-clock staffing so there aren’t interruptions to any services or production (eg hospital work) they work in the rail industry on board trains or their job is linked to making sure trains run on time their working day is split up (eg they’re a cleaner and work for part of the morning and the evening) there is an agreement between management, trade unions or the workforce (a ‘collective’ or ‘workforce’ agreement) that has changed or removed rights to these rest breaks for a group of workers There are many others.....
  2. Thank you for your input but I suggest you have missed the point yourself. I have never stated that what my employer has implemented is anything less than lawful, it is that they have not implemented the whole of the law in this case. They implemented section 23 meaning section 24 then applies as the compensatory measure built in to the act for those workers who due to special circumstances can have their rights in law exempted or modified. Are you trying to say that section 24 has no relevance ? 24. Where the application of any provision of these Regulations is excluded by regulation 21 or 22, or is modified or excluded by means of a collective agreement or a workforce agreement under regulation 23(a), and a worker is accordingly required by his employer to work during a period which would otherwise be a rest period or rest break— (a) his employer shall wherever possible allow him to take an equivalent period of compensatory rest, and (b) in exceptional cases in which it is not possible, for objective reasons, to grant such a period of rest, his employer shall afford him such protection as may be appropriate in order to safeguard the worker’s health and safety. 'SHALL' not should and my individual opinion has perfect relevance if as I believe my right in law is not being met.
  3. I am not entirely sure as to why this shift was included on the shift pattern. My employer is one who periodically changes profiles and shift patterns to suit business needs. The facts are that as employees they voted for the shift pattern and profile (which would have been imposed in any case) and this was included unnoticed at first. Others have questioned this. As far as having an opinion is concerned I am of the opinion that my employer is not fulfilling their duties in regard to section 24 WTR and in my opinion that is a perfectly reasonable opinion to hold bearing in mind the circumstances. What I am looking for is how my opinion translates in to facts. The law states; 21. Subject to regulation 24, regulations 6(1), (2) and (7), 10(1), 11(1) and (2) and 12(1) do not apply in relation to a worker— Section 21 is still subject to section 24 so the exemption due to the type of work that I do is still subject to section 24. 23. A collective agreement or a workforce agreement may— (a)modify or exclude the application of regulations 6(1) to (3) and (7), 10(1), 11(1) and (2) and 12(1), and Section 23 is still subject to section 24 as quoted in the OP. Section 24(b) is for exceptional cases with objective reasons and is not a cover all for a predictable shift or work. For instance the 6.25 hour shift in question is called a late shift, there are other late shifts that are 8.75 hours for which they do give an unpaid break. There is nothing exceptional in either shift and the work completed would be considered the core work of the business in both cases. So why give a break in one case and not in another ? I have contacted the union in this case and they have no opinion as to why there is no break provided, they have been assured by the management team that its implementation is legally correct, make of that what you will. Both section 21 and section 23 enable my employer to exempt section 12(1) as far as I can see. Whichever way they argue both are still subject to section 24 where the law states an employer shall, not should pay a compensatory rest period. Section 24(b) is for exceptional circumstances, this being a shift that I can predict to be working in June 2019 would hardly rank as being exceptional nor would the duties involved. This is my opinion now, my guess is that my employer has included this as it fits a profile and shift pattern and for no other reason than they can.
  4. I work in a residential business as described in section 21 WTR so can be exempted but as section 21 states it is still subject to section 24. I think that my employers realise that so have come back with this workforce agreement reply, but that is still subject to section 24. Examples of shifts are 'all day', lunch given but a further 6.25 hours where there is no further break and 'late' shifts of 6.25 hours where no break is given at all. My working week could involve any number of different shifts but they are all predictable.
  5. Hi, my shift pattern includes shifts which require me to work periods greater than 6 hours. There are no in built breaks within these shifts. I have approached my employer about this issue and their response was that they have a workforce agreement in place and therefore they can exempt section 12 of the WTR under section 23 of the WTR. My guess is that they can also exempt section 12 under section 21 as the job is a special case as described in section 21. What I think they have missed is the effect of section 24 WTR on both sections 21 and 23 and their duties in regard to that; Compensatory rest 24. Where the application of any provision of these Regulations is excluded by regulation 21 or 22, or is modified or excluded by means of a collective agreement or a workforce agreement under regulation 23(a), and a worker is accordingly required by his employer to work during a period which would otherwise be a rest period or rest break— (a) his employer shall wherever possible allow him to take an equivalent period of compensatory rest, and (b) in exceptional cases in which it is not possible, for objective reasons, to grant such a period of rest, his employer shall afford him such protection as may be appropriate in order to safeguard the worker’s health and safety. I may be wrong in this but my opinion is that there should be an in built break on the shifts where I am required to work longer than 6 hours. I don't think that the act allows employers to remove the breaks completely just whether they can be taken at that particular time or not. Regardless of this section 24 overrides sections 21 and 23 and compensatory rest breaks must be provided ? It is a dangerous job 24/7 so breaks are paramount. What is your opinion ? Thanks in advance.
  6. There was an initial investigation (which is an unrelated matter to the question asked in this thread) where the investigating manager was asked to look at my IT. Because of that I'm presuming they will find the pictures previously mentioned and forming the theme of this thread. I have not admitted anything about these pictures as I have not been asked about them (yet) but I will do so if and when asked. The Director made his punishment statement prior to this initial investigation taking place (prior to anything really) from his 'fact finding' interview with myself. I never admitted anything and never would since the cause of the initial investigation was a mistake which even the Operational manager accepted, but evidently I am still going to be found guilty and punished in any case !!
  7. But that's the point I didn't admit to anything, certainly not what they were saying and at the initial fact finding they accepted my version of events. No hearing as of yet and I'm guilty....you're right, not the letter of the law !! My staff book specifically states that I have the right to be accompanied at all stages.
  8. I'm going to go the honest route on this, might be better, might not. On the initial investigation I was dragged to the Operational Managers office where this appeared out of the blue. He did not offer me the help of a friend or a union rep and I was asked many questions which I answered truthfully. I explained the situation to them and after he discussed this with the other manager present he stated that he accepted what I had said about the situation and I was to see them in the morning. The director then came in and said that he would deal with this in the morning. In the morning I went to the directors office where he threatened me with suspension with a view to dismissal, totally out of the blue!! He started the 'investigation' all over again basically asking me the same questions that the OM had asked. Eventually he said that he was putting it to investigation and that he wanted it 'boxed off' in a fortnight and then informed me 'you'll receive a punishment at the end, you will be punished'. Now the handbook for managers involved in investigations is that they must be done with impartiality and integrity, I fail to see if it has already been decided prior to any disciplinary hearing that I am guilty and will be punished how this can be the case ??
  9. But if he did see those would he see them as Gross Misconduct ?
  10. That's what I thought but those in the know say not, the whole system's a bit antiquated. I got rid of them because I knew they were wrong, I just realise now that I didn't do a good enough job!
  11. Thanks Emmzzi, there's always a lot of spare time in the role I fulfill and the firm are aware of this, half my job is sitting around doing nothing! But Immature and vindictive is well put and about sums it up ! I have had a good 20+ years with this firm without any previous disciplinary issues or warnings, all tasks completed to budget and on time and I'd like that to carry on. But I don't think they will miss it so I am scared to death that this would be seen by them as Gross Misconduct. I believe I can only face summary dismissal for Gross Misconduct. It's a big firm and I think that other than this issue I've not had anything to do with the Boss himself nor am I likely to. I also genuinely suffer from acute anxiety and I am just bouncing around everywhere at the mo........
  12. Monumentally stupid I know !! Lots of views, any thoughts or opinions please, all gratefully received
  13. His face appears transposed on two tyrannical historical figures and I did them.
  14. Hi, To cut a long story short I am being formally investigated by another manager. The company has a formal procedure in investigations and part of this is checking IT. They will find in the recycle bin pictures depicting the Boss in an uncomplimentary manner....I got rid of them a long time ago as they were innappropriate, but I did not empty the recycle bin! I never sent them to anyone else or printed them but I'm sure that they will find them. Do you think this would be Gross Misconduct ?? Thank you.
  15. Consent order signed, the charging order dismissed, the judgement set aside and withdrawal from the action by the claimant. They were keen to keep us out of court. Thanks very much to everyone who helped, a donation will be made. Merry Christmas to you all.
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