Hi, Does anyone have any comments on this? Would be really appreciated as it looks like it may now go to court as the bank have so far ignored correspondence. Thanks, Scotcat65

Hi, firstly as a regular viewer of the site but very rare contributor, thanks for all the information put out there (particularly by the site team and the very frequent contributors) to assist us mere mortals, it really does help to know you're not alone. The following situation might be of some general interest in terms of the above areas and I'd welcome any comments, positive or negative. After sadly putting our business into liquidation in 2010, I'm now being chased by the bank (no names yet, don't want to give them any warning) albeit some two and a half years later, for the personal guarantee. No arguments that I signed a guarantee, but their entire attitude since contacting me (including now taking the matter to court despite the fact that there is a formal complaint to them still in progress) has utterly hacked me off, made me review the entire history of the 'relationship', and I'm now determined to fight them all the way, and if possible, even turn the tables somewhat using COBS / BCOBS. My argument is that as they arbitrarily withdrew 80% of the available credit on our business credit card overnight, and additionally demanded repayment of the entire overdraft (albeit by knocking a sum off every month rather than instantly) this seriously damaged the business at a point where it was already vulnerable, and as such was a clear breach of the implied terms of contract in relation to the FCA/FSA COBS / PRIN requirements 2.1.6 and 2.1.8. I should mention that while the business was indeed struggling in the recession, we had held both forms of credit since its inception some three years earlier and had never missed a payment on either. My personal losses from the business folding were around £70k, and I think it entirely reasonable to get at least some of that back from the bank, never mind stuff the personal guarantee....... This all happened in 2009, so I believe it should be covered by COBS. I've initiated a complaint with the FOS (yes, I know they're ineffective but it will give the bank something else to do, and it's another way to use the same argument to pursue them for 'compensation') and I've sent a warning letter to the bank that they should not pursue the legal avenue while the Ombudsman investigates (for personal reasons I could really do without the court related hassle at present). I'm also hoping when they see the substance of the FOS complaint and / or legal defence they'll rapidly back off and make me an offer. However, if they continue with the legal action, I guess the more immediate option is to use the above 'breach of contract' argument to both get the personal guarantee rendered null and void and to counter-sue for (a proportion of) my own losses. I think it is reasonable to link the two things as without the failure of the business the personal guarantee wouldn't have become payable. The really galling thing is that the bank already haven't lost a penny! The loan & interest repayments we made over the years while the business was operating, plus the small business loan guarantee insurance (premiums paid by us, naturally) have already more than covered the original loan and overdraft, so they are, in effect, coming after me for their profits, despite playing a major part in destroying the business......you couldn't make it up..... I would probably have to engage professional legal help for the above, as I'm somewhat unsure about the counter-suing bit in relation to the original action, but I would very much appreciate opinions on a couple of issues; 1. Any views on my chances of success.....!? 2. When I clicked through on the very useful post from Bankfodder re COBS/BCOBS, the 11 principles which came up on the FCA website appeared to be listed under PRINS rather than COBS. Is this just as relevant in terms of a breach of implied terms of contract? (That part of the FCA website isn't entirely clear). 3. If the legal action goes ahead, am I better just to counter-sue for a nominal sum and then (assuming success) use that judgement to get a better result from the Ombudsman, rather than going for the amount I really should and risking substantial costs? 4. Would the court consider it reasonable that I'm defending the claim and counter-suing for personal losses based on the breach of contract, even though the breach occurred in relation to the accounts and agreements (with the exception of the personal guarantee) which were in the name of the (now liquidated) business? (I personally think the link is obvious, but then I don't have a legal mind......). Thanks for your attention, Regards, scotcat65

Hi, everything had gone very quiet on this, but then, suddenly, a couple of calls from 'Westcot Credit Services', followed by the usual threatening letter with rather a lot of red print. Whooooooo..... We're absolutely shaking in our boots....not. We have a good colour printer too so I think we'll see if we can 'out red ink' them with the response. A full page width heading of 'Warning - Criminal Offence Committed' should at least get their attention. Obviously RBS are trying a last ditch effort to scare us into submission. Is it just me being naive, or do these disgraceful tactics still actually work with some unfortunate people? If some nice person out there could possibly confirm (and possibly provide a link to a suitable template, I know, I'm being lazy), I think the next step is probably to S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) them for the original agreement (which they obviously don't have or they would have provided it at the CCA request), and take it from there when they default on that. Am I correct? For general interest, we got a response from the Solicitors Regulation Authority which effectively said that they didn't intend taking any action as the correspondence from Green & Co. was not considered 'threatening' enough and they felt it was appropriate for a solicitor to act 'robustly' on instruction from their client. They also said there was no evidence that a 'template' letter had been used by Triton without proper oversight by Green & Co. Mildly disappointing, particularly on the latter aspect, which we feel could have done with more scrutiny, but we didn't expect much from what is probably just another 'old boys' club. Did get the impression though that had Green & Co. sent the same letter after Triton / RBS had defaulted on the CCA request, things might have been different, so it might be worth others in a slightly different situation having a go. We've certainly had no further correspondence from the pet lawyers. Cheers, Scotcat65

Hi Enron, Thanks for the suggestions & advice. Interestingly, Citibank are next on our list, as they've completely ignored an offer to settle, a valid CCA request (they credited the account with the £1, which I think may be misappropriation of funds...) and have been intensely irritating with their phone calls. Being generous to Triton / RBS, (as I was unsure if it was calendar or working days), they have a few more until the 30 is up (although I'm not holding my breath for a properly executed document), so I'll wait until then before contacting Trading Standards etc. I might give them a final chance to provide it, just to try and force a 'yes or no' response (and be as reasonable as possible) in the meantime. Do you happen to know if it is my local trading standards, or the one where RBS cards are based, that should be contacted? (I believe the FOS and OFT can be complained to through their websites). I'll keep in mind the MP you mentioned. Our own is the Speaker, so he's probably too busy completing his expense claims to be bothered (and the local MSP is his son, so not much use either...!). I guess however there might be a bit more interest given the upcoming by-election nearby.... Cheers, Scotcat65.

Hi PGH7447, Thanks for the quick response, its great to know that there are people out there taking an interest. Yes, I just wanted someone to confirm if the regulations RBS quote are what I think they are; i.e. they allow the provision of current as opposed to original Ts & Cs etc., but in reality make absolutely no difference to the fact that there is no 'properly executed' agreement provided, only the application form, and that as such, they have not complied with the CCA request. Cheers, Scotcat65.

Hi, first post, but i've been reading the site for a while so let me start by saying thanks to everyone for all the really useful info. In dispute with RBS over wifes personal credit card account. Ran into difficulties at the start of the year (we have our own small retail business, and things have been less than easy recently) and missed / late with a few payments. RBS initially reasonable (all on the telephone, nothing in writing), but when April minimum payment (x 2 actually, to catch up a bit) was made (on time, by the date on the statement received) RBS claimed agreement made by telephone had been broken and passed the debt to Triton. Complained to RBS that the only written payment request had been the statement received and had been complied with (and told Triton to desist until complaint was dealt with). RBS refused to listen, and further threats received from Triton. Disgusted with the attitude displayed by RBS, but continued to make monthly payment to RBS via internet banking to show goodwill (despite RBS refusal to accept it over the phone, noted & witnessed). RBS continued to deny complaint and refer to Triton. (P.S. has anyone else noticed that the rear of the Triton letters suggest payment by Credit Card, surely a breach of OFT guidelines?). Now really annoyed. CCA request to Triton. No response in 12+2 days, but just afterwards a letter was received from Green & Co. threatening legal action on behalf of Triton. Politely told them what to do with their 'client', and pointed out that a CCA request was outstanding and the account was in dispute. (many thanks to the thread I copied a suitable letter from, couldn't find it again today..) Received a surprisingly fast response stating that they had not received 'full instructions' from their client and referring back to Triton. Have now made a complaint to the Solicitors Regulation Authority (who are actually going to follow it up!!) regarding their unprofessional conduct in sending threatening correspondence while not being in full possession of the facts and while the CCA was outstanding (or in allowing their name to be used on template letters by Triton, as I strongly suspect). May not get anywhere, but it will give them something else to think about! Anyway, correspondence was received (within the 30 days) from RBS Cards with the standard letter claiming compliance with the CCA request, and enclosing a copy of the front of the application form (signed by wife), current Ts & Cs and the most recent statement (I've seen an identical letter elsewhere on these forums). As far as I could see from the other threads, this application form, although signed by the debtor, does not even come close to constituting a 'properly executed' agreement, and was in fact missing virtually all of the prescribed terms. Wrote back and pointed out their failure to comply, and that they would be committing a criminal offence if the 'properly executed' agreement was not forthcoming prior to the 30 day expiry date of 18th July. (Again, thanks to someone who put a suitable response on another thread). This morning received a letter from RBS Cards which effectively claims that they have complied, quoting "Regulations 3(2) and 7(1)(b) of the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983"; suggests that they 'see no reason to enter into further correspondence' 'about the alleged CCA breaches' and that I contact CAB or FOS if still not satisfied. The last paragraph is interesting however, and I quote it in full; 'In regards to the account being considered unenforceable by you, the Consumer Credit Act, S78, states the agreement is unenforceable if we pursue you through the Courts to enforce the outstanding debt. Currently, your account is being managed by a debt-collecting agent on our behalf and therefore we have not committed an offence and are entitled to pursue you further in regards to the outstanding balance for your credit card account. Your indebtedness on this account remains due and payable and we will be pursuing for the full repayment.' Is it just me, or does that sound slightly desparate? I'm pretty sure all of this letter is bull, but I'd appreciate if anyone could enlighten me as to the regulations quoted and whether they make any difference or not, before I report both RBS & Triton to trading standards / OFT / FOS. I would like to point out that our purpose in this was not to avoid the debt, and in fact had RBS acted reasonably, we would be continuing to pay it to them as regularly as possible, but their entire attitude and that of their parasites (sorry, is it OK to use that word for DCAs in the forums?) has got us well into 'need to teach them a lesson...' mode, and I'm now determined to see the debt substantially reduced or written off, to do just that. Many thanks for all the help.