Thank you hallowitch!

I omited the sentence about it being an HMO as it will confuse them. HMOs can be rented jointly and I have been advised not to tell them at this point that it's an HMO anyway.

Here's the new edition of my letter:

Dear Mr XXX,

I refer to your letter of 17/12/2009 which I received only on 27/01/2010 (or on 26th... As I am not sure of exact date, may be I'd better use jta's variant "In answer to your letter dated 17/12/2009" ?).

Please take into consideration that I never agreed with the Landlord of rental property address (1 bubble gum road, ilford ig3 7hp) that I was going to be the only tenant of his property. It has never been agreed that I would be the sole tenant of this property. That's why I am surprised that your letter was addressed only to me. There are several unrelated persons living in the property. Everyone has separate oral AST agreements with the Landlord.The fact is that each tenancy has been agreed separately between Landlord & respective Tenant and no new Tenancy Agreement has been signed with all tenants each time the household composition has changed. As for me, I’ve always been renting a room and not the whole flat . Each tenant has a separate oral agreement with the landlord. I rent only one room within this property

I want to stress the fact that I have recently been collecting rent from other tenants & passing it on to Landlord, but only on an informal basis to help him out, not because I had agreed to take on responsibility for the whole tenancy.

Although I have been collecting the rents for the landlord recently, this has been on an informal basis and should not be taken to mean that I am agreeing to any changes in my status.

If you want me to start dealing with you and if you want me to sign an agreement with you, you should accept all my amendments to the version of the tenancy agreement that you tried to make me sign. I hope you understand that I don't want you to change the terms on which I've been living at this property.

The new agreement you have sent to me is unacceptable for the following reasons.

1. Unacceptability of the late payment charges

2. It doesn’t say anything about protection of my deposit

3. It doesn’t say that the LL will pay the CT and water charges.

The most important of them is : one of the clauses should state that the Landlord will pay the council tax charges and water rates. This was part of the terms under which I accepted the tenancy and moved in to rent a room. As I am sure you must be aware, the LL is not allowed unilaterally to change this condition.

I particularly draw your attention to the point about the Council Tax and Water rates being included in the rental figures. This was one of the reasons I took this tenancy in the first place, withut this I would never have been able to afford it.

And of course, as you already know, I've never agreed with the Landlord to the late payment charges. So, why did you mention them in your letter? It is very odd and looks like you are trying restrospectively to impose changes on the terms of renting. As we (the rest of the tenants and I) already mentioned in the list of amendements, any charge for late payment will be accepted by us only if a clause stating a grace period (14 days minimum) is included.

As there is no tenancy agreement in place with your company and myself I will be paying the landlord the rent until this matter is concluded to my satisfaction.

Please send written acknowledgement of this letter and your intentions regarding the matters raised within 14 day of this recorded delivery letter.

Sincerely yours,

Mr Tenant

Thank you once againe for your advice.

I'd like to know what do you think if I give the agency the following reply to their letter( see post #31).

Dear XXX estates staff,

As you already know I could have read your letter much later than it is dated.That's why I'm replying respectively later.

Please take into consideration that I never agred with the Landlord that I was going to be the only tenant of his property. That's why I am surprised that your letter came only on my name. There are several unrelated persons living in the property. Everyone has separate oral agreement with the Landlord.The fact is that each tenancy has been agreed separately between Landlord & respective Tenant and no new Tenancy Agreement has been signed with all tenants each time household composition has changed. As for me, I’ve always been renting a room and not the whole flat as it’s has always been HMO.

I want to stress the fact that I have recently been collecting rent from other tenants & passing it on to Landlord, but only on an informal basis to help him out, not because I had agreed to take on responsibility for the whole tenancy.

If you want me to start dealing with you and if you want me to sign an agreement with you, you should accept all my amendements to thaat variant of agreement that you tried to make me sign. I hope you understand that I don't want you to change the terms on which I've been living at this property.

The most important of them is : one of the clauses should state that the Landlord will pay the council tax charges and water rates. This was part of the terms on wich I moved in to rent a room. Otherwise I wouldn't ever moved.

And of course, as u already know I've never agreed with the Landlord to the late payment charges. So, why did you mention them in your letter? It is very odd and looks like you are trying to impose changes on the terms of renting. As we(me and the rest of the tenants) already mentioned in the list of amendements, any charge for late payment will be accepted by us only if a clause stating a grace period(14 days minimum) will be mentioned.

Sincerely yours,

Mr Tenant

Mistakes correction wellcome

By the way, 2 guys living in the other room are brothers. So, it means that they are related to ech other but not related to me.

Can it be classified then as a HMO?

Information for owners, managing agents and housing associations

 

 

Take a look at the link, if it is a HMO (link also defines HMO) then the LL is liable, not the tenants.

it really looks like it is HMO.

the question is how to prove it and when and where; what steps is better for me to do first

And whose account I'd better pay the next month's rent: the agency's or the landlord's?

Ive had a read of the info in this link please don't sign anything unless it confirms that you live in a HMO if you sign anything saying you are the only tenant then you will be liable for the council tax water bill etc

have the other tenants had a tenancy agreement to sign

Thank you.

I knew it - the property we rent can be classed the property as a house in multiple occupation.

So what's are my first steps then? What should I do: go to the council or wait untill the council send me a bill on my name?

Hallowitch,

I am very gratefull to you for your honest and helpful advice.

By the way, there is a detail I'd like you to pay an attention to and comment on it.

In december 2009 my landlord without letting me know gave the management of this property to an estate agency.

So, on 17/12/2009 they gave me this letter:

plus they wanted me to sign an agreement with them(as they represent my landlord). I told them that i'll sign the agreement only after I study it and after they edit it taking into consideration all my amendements. I gave them the list of amendements, they still didn't bring me edited copy but ask me to pay into their account.

This month's rent I paid into the landlord's account as usual, thought they asked me to do so into their account. And now , on the 1st of february i'll have to pay my rent, but not sure into whos account: into the landlord's or into the agency's. The landlord says it is ok if I pay into the agency's account because he pays them money to manage his property.

But I think I shouldn't do so as it would be one more evidence that I accepted that I am his only tenant. What do you think should I do?

By the way, would it make sense to write a collective letter, on behalf of all the tenants of the property that we are not going to deal with that agency?

Please read the last sentence of the letter. it says they will charge me for late payment, though in the first sentence they said "everything will stay the same". We've never agreed on any charges for late payement, that means that the agency introduces a new term in our oral agreament...

What would you do if you were me?

would it exempt me from CT if I prove that it is HMO or in any case?

no

but the council will be looking for there money from someone if there is more than one person living there it gives them more people to chase

 

councils don't give up and they will pursue for years to get the money

in years to come they could get an attachment of earnings order place a charge on your house (if you by one) they may even not accept you student status as you should have applied for a rebate at the time

 

I would personally get your landlord to sort it out asap its his mess and under no circumstances allow him to give your name as the the only tenant

But, as for now, he isn't going to give my name as the only tanant. He is going to give the name of the guy who lived here before me!

The problem is that this guy still lives in London and definetely will tell the council that it is me who lived there after him, he knows my full name.

it wouldn't exempt me from Council Tax, or would it?

 

i would think it should

would it exempt me from CT if I prove that it is HMO or in any case?

I would do both just to cover your back

I certainly would not say you were renting the property on your own under any circumstances

But even if I manage to prove them that i have been a student during all of the time and lived in a HMO with non-students it wouldn't exempt me from Council Tax, or would it?

students don't pay council tax so keep all proof of when you were a student

So which way would you chose if you were me:

1)to keep sticking to the point that it's been HMO and there lived several unrelated people

or

2)keep all proof of when I was a student and tell them that I've been renting the property on my own , but as I've always been a student I shouldn't have paid the CT?

students don't pay council tax so keep all proof of when you were a student

I know that , but I haven't got any letters for council from colleges.

What I've got is the vizas, enrolement letters from colleges and sertificates that i finished studies there, plus I have letters from the home office stating that i am a full time student etc...

Should it be all the tenants that had lived here during the whole period of my tenancy or would it be enough only the guys who live here at the moment?

 

who ever lives in the house now

and if any of you are students you don't pay council tax

2 brothers live in the other room, they are not sudents. they work

are you a student

Formally Yes..But I do not study now, though I have a student visa. I am going to do viza extension this summer.

That's why he keeps telling me now that he let the property only to me. I never agreed to that.

 

Thats not good he is going to hold you responsible for the council tax In my opinion

 

you and the other tenants could get a statutory declaration done at the local county court or by a solicitor it will cost £5/10 each to say that you all live there at the same time giving the date your tenancy's started therefore it is a house hmo

this could give you all some sort of protection

Should it be all the tenants that had lived here during the wole period of my tenancy or would it be enough only the guys who live here at the moment?

I'm afraid your landlord sounds like a cowboy and you are are going to get shafted

I'm shotting in the dark here and I'm not really happy about giving you advice but i also don't want you going into something blindly without being aware of the consequences the stat dec is a legal doc and if you move out one of the others will get shafted so it would be in all your interest's to get it done if nothing else it would prove to the council that your landlord was renting out his property as a hmo

also remember he has no tenancy agreement with your signature on it (do you sign a receipt for the rent )

Yes , he is a sort of a cowboy.

He said that he is helping me out by telling the council that it is the previous tenant who must pay the CT.

I started to put the cash into his account only this autumn, So, his bank statement print will only show that the money came from Pugilist1( not Pugilist of course, but only my first name and the number of the house)

I wouldn't go near the council if i was you as soon as they have your name its you they will pursue

personally i would leave it up to your landlord wait and see if the council get in contact with you and take it from there

But I think it is inevitable that the council will get in touch with me. After they find out that it was not the previous tenant who lived here. And the Landord will definetely tell them that it it me...

by the sounds of things your landlord has not informed the council that he has tenants or that it is a HMO

and i think for a hmo there are certain safety things the landlord must do fire doors etc

have a google and find out

That's why he keeps telling me now that he let the property only to me. I never agreed to that.

Should I just wait for when a council bill will come on my name or better move out as soon as possible?

It wont go to court so stop worrying about that side of things i was giving you a worse case scenario there if you/ landlord tried to shift the blame on to someone else knowing full well that it is not there bill

Just throwing some thoughts at you here

as you don't have a tenancy agreement it may be hard for your landlord to prove you lived there who's name are the utility bills do you have a rent book or get some from of receipt from your landlord

but you make 100% sure when you move you can prove the date you moved out I'm not even sure who's responsibility it is to inform the council that you are a tenant

 

as i said i don't know how to help you sort this out but it must be sorted the council will be looking for there money and when they decide who is responsible a liability order will be granted and they will send the bailiffs

the council will go after all tenants it they decide that the tenants are responsible and anyone of you could be held responsible for the whole bill for all the time you have lived there it called Joint and several liability

What are the chances do you think that anyone of us could be held responsible for the whole bill for all the time you have lived there it called Joint and several liability?

What do you are my chances for success if I chose this way of solving the matter:

I will get down the council asap & tell them:

(a) How long I have been living there

( b ) Who has lived there with me during that time & when

( c ) That each tenancy has been agreed separately between Landlord & respective Tenant and no new Tenancy Agreement has been signed with all tenants each time household composition has changed

(d) Landlord told me & several other tenants that he paid the C/Tax and that I should not worry about it.

(e) That I have recently been collecting rent from other tenants & passing it on to Landlord, but only on an informal basis to help him out, not because I had agreed to take on responsibility for the whole tenancy.

If I can back this up with written statements & contact details for previous tenants, this should hopefully be enough to convince the local authority that it is an HMO, am I right?

I will also tell them what Landlord is planning to do (re blaming a prev tenant for C/Tax arrears) as this is fraud.

I certainly will not sign any TAgreement under any circumstances, as I will then be liable for C/Tax, am I right?

Of course, doing the above could well result in my Landlord serving me with S21 out of spite.

But it will be pretty easy for ex-T that L is intending to stitch up to prove that he has not lived there, so ultimately I imagine council will get in touch with me.

I will then have to provide above info to prove that I am not liable for the arrears.

So, do you think guys I should do it sooner rather than later, as volunteering the info and reporting Landlord for attempted fraud proves my honesty a bit more?

I don't know how you can resolve this

do you know who's name is on council tax bill someone must be getting billed for its not good that you only have an oral agreement

and remember if he is prepared to shaft the previous tenant he will shaft you when you leave

The problem is that I've never seen any council tax bills. i do not know if it exists at all?

I think if the landlord arose this question not long ago, then the council contacted him on this matter... But I am not sure...

you say this is a HMO does the landlord live at the property

what about the other tenants

This is what I am going to say in court. I am going to say that I never been renting the full flat , but only a room, even a place in a room.

I think couple of guys who lived here would be zble to confirm that they had separate oral agreements with the landlord, that they rented room and not from me but from the landlord.

Do you think it will work in court and the responsibility will shift to the landlord?

No ,the landlord does not live at this property.

not a road i would go down the council will hunt him down they will send in the bailiffs

when it has been established that he was not responsible for the council tax hopefully before is goods have been removed

you or your landlord (whoever they think is responsible for paying it ) could end up in court for wilful refusal or culpable neglect and could be sent to jail

oh my god...

they will definetely establish that that guy is not responsible for the council tax.

so what is the best way to solve this problem: if I secretly remove myself from the property the landlord will be able to shift the blame on me and it will not tak them long to track me anywhere in London, am I right?

what should I do to avoid court? or what should I do to be prepared to the court...?

I'm really at a loss: I've never commited any crime and never intended to ..I just do not deserve beeing sent to jail! I'm not a criminal!

as the tenant whether you have a tenancy agreement or not you are responsible for the council tax

it is you the council are providing a service to

i don't know if you will find anything in here to help you but i thought i better post the link just in case

The Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992

I know that, but before I moved in the landlord said that I shouldn't pay the c.tax.

I think it can be classified as a HMO, because in that flat lived 3 other guys, everyone had separate oral agreement with the landlord. So, I never wanted to be responsible for renting of the whole flat.

Now things are going to get much more complicated. My LL told me that he is going to tell the council that a person who lived at this property before me has been living there up to november 2009. By doing so the LL wants to shift responsibility of paying the council tax and make that guy responsible. Their contract ended about 3 years ago. I know that that guy still live in London.

The questions now are:

1. Is the council going to hunt him?

2. What will happen when they(the council) get in touch with him? (That guy knows my full name and knows that I've been always living at this property after he moved out)

3. In case that the guy will bring an action against my LL what is going to hapen next?

I mean what can I do now to let the council know that I never agreed with the LL to pay council tax and it is the LL who should pay it?

Everyone's opinion is much wellcome.

no tenancy agreement then I would state that the landlord is responsible.

 

but that is my take on it, whether that is correct I dont really know

Thank you very much. But I'm afraid it's not that simple..

Who have to pay the council tax: a tenant(me) or a landlord, if they haven't got a written tenancy agreement? Before the tenant moved in the landlord told me that I shouldn’t pay the council tax. But after 3 years passed the landlord says that I should have paid the council tax for the whole period of tenancy. It is a one bedroom flat in London.

What should the tenant do to avoid this and obtain justice?