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Can anyone tell me the specific law that prohibits the charging of fixed penalty charges? It would be very useful to be able to quote this law instead of telling banks, telecoms/utility providers and associated companies that they were "in breach of consumer laws". Most of the firms charging these penalties, and presumably banks in particular, have had this woolly complaint over the years and just brush it off and ignore it. Tt would be good if I could confront them with something specific which they cannot sweep aside because it is a generalised moan. A specific law, with specific clauses and sub-sections (!) would be much more impressive and might even get them to think! So does anyone know? I may be being a bit thick here, but the 4th post at https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?387306-Full-Subject-Access-Request is about the action to take to report the firm to the ICO if they break the data protection laws, unless I'm misreading it. What I'd like to know is what I do next, once I have the proof - in the form of documentation provided by the erring firm as a result of the SAR - that they have charged me unlawful fixed penalty charges. Do I write to the firm? Do I take them to court immediately? If it is best to write to the erring firm (not to the ICO) is there a standard template letter which it is recommended to use? I'm at the stage where I've received the documentation as a result of sending out SARs, but I don't know what to do next. I have identified all the illegal fixed penalty charges which have been made against me and which I have paid because I did not know any better. I've added all these up in each case. But what do I do with this knowledge? Do I write to the firm showing them proof of their illegal charges and quoting the law which has made these illegal (and if so, what law is that?) or do I just take them to court? And if I take them to court what law should I say I am using to take them to court? Is there a standard procedure for doing this? I can't wait to continue to the next stage. But I don't know what the next stage is. Can someone please advise on what is the next step to take. Thanks.
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Yes. I sent off 3 SARs. One of them is back with a lot of documentation (not the EE) and I have identified the items that have been charged to me and which I have paid. how do I get my money back? Do I just ask for it? Or do I have to take them to court?
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OK, once I have the SAR and the series of charges they have made and which I have paid, how do I get my money back? Do I just ask for it? Or do I have to take them to court? What happens now?
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I received the details from Watford County Court only a few days ago. The undated, unsigned letter - apparently par for the course at Watford - was accompanied by the Order for possession (mortgaged premises) (suspended) which stated that: The defendant give the claimant possession of [the property] on or before [date]. This order is not to be enforced so long as the defendant pays the claimant the unpaid installments under the mortgage of [sum] by the payments set out below in addition to the current installments under the mortgage. [Then gave details of payments, which I had already put in place over three months prior to the hearing.] The monetary claim to be adjourned generally with liberty to restore. Point 3 could not be more ambiguous if it tried. I also had to bring my mortgage payment date forward from the 5th of the month to the 28th of the PRECEDING month in order to comply with point 1 (because the shortest month only has 28 days and I could not risk a default before the payment of the 1st of the following month), which effectively meant that I was paying two sets of mortgage payments in the same month!
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Claiming Prestige Finance/GE Unlawful Charges
enterprise_seo replied to enterprise_seo's topic in Mortgages and Secured Loans
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I sent off the SAR a couple of weeks ago and I get a letter back from Mortgages 2 saying that the signature on my SAR letter and the signature on that they had for me were not the same. I checked my signature on the original mortgage application, and I looked at the signature on the SAR letter and it was quite clear that they were by the same person in every way imaginable! I wrote to them about this, sending them a screenshot of both signatures, and, of course, they conceded that I was quite right (they had to - I'm not copying the screenshots here for security reasons but they are like two peas in a pod!) I also had someone from Mortgages 2 phone me to make a grovelling apology, saying that they could follow this up with an internal investigation if I wanted. Knowing that they were playing for time with their ridiculous claim I smelled a rat here. Surely an internal investigation would hold up the process of the SAR. So I said I just wanted the SAR process to proceed as quickly as possible. I should get the full documentation from them by the 25th August. The cheek of these people!
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Today I received a large pile of documents from Prestige Finance, with whom I have a second mortgage. I have identified 10 unlawful charges of £35 each. But this account was previously held by lenders GE Money. Either they went into administration and "became" Prestige Finance, or GE Money simply sold my account to Prestige Finance. I have identified seven unlawful "administration charges" of £40 each while the account was with GE Money, before I found my account being handled by Prestige Finance. So my question is in two parts. 1. Am I entitled to recover the £280 unlawfully charged to me by GE Money before Prestige Finance aquired the account (and if so, who do I get the money from? Prestige? Or GE, who may no longer exist?) I had always assumed that if a going concern such as a lender was aquired by another going concern then the buyer going concern would also be buying the seller's liabilities as well as its assets (in which case Prestige would be liable to refund me the money that GE had stolen from me). But I may be wrong in this case. 2. How do I get my money back from Prestige Finance? Do I just ask for it back or do I need to take them to court? Can I charge interest at the statutory 8% and how can I calculate that? Can I add on anything else such as the time it has cost me and also the stress? Thanks in advance.
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I have a copy of the original mortgage agreement. The signature on that and the signature on my SAR letter are so similar as to be almost copies of each other! Only an idiot or a desperate person (or a crook) could assert that these signatures were not from the same hand! I have written back to them with images of both signatures and have told them to spot the difference. But I have also sent them a certified copy of my passport, so that - from this point on - there can be no doubt whatsoever as to the validity of my identity. The certification cost me £10.50 and my train journey to an officiating Post Office where I was able to do so cost £3.40, so I will be adding this onto the bill, together with the 2 x £1.77 for the two sets of signed-for letters (subtotal £17.44) which will be added to the cumulative cost of Mortgagesplc's illegal charges plus 8% statutory interest over the years that they have been illegally charging me. Should come to a nice little sum!
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dx100uk, Hi. I got a response from Mortgages PLC today saying that they don't think that the signature in my SAR letter is mine because, according to them, "the signature/s provided do not match our records". Well, that's a new one! I have a copy of the original mortgage agreement and a copy of the SAR letter and it seems to me to be incontrovertible that they are by the same hand. They go on: "Under the General Data Protection Regulation we are entitled to a period of one calendar month in which to provide the information. The one calendar month period does not begin until we receive the following: "Proof of identity [as cited above]. An original or certified copy of a passport or driving licence is acceptable." Cheeky monkeys! Are they right, do you think? And what does "certified" copy of a passport mean?
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That's exactly what is was. The court agreed that I was making overpayments which were acceptable and which would reduce the arrears. I haven't had anything in writing yet.
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I was told that the order was suspended. As I wrote in my earlier post, the judgment was "suspended". So that means I get to stay in my home and that the lenders, Mortgages PLC, lost their case. As far as I'm aware, that's what it means.
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The order was suspended, which I'm told means that my home will not be repossessed. Are there two different types of "suspended"?
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Right. I'm owed a pretty penny, in that case! Thanks.
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Thanks dx100uk. Would a SAR be appropriate? They did say they'd charge me £35 each for each month that went by without an agreement being in place. But I believe that they refused to put an agreement in place (in other words, agree to my agreement to overpay them every month) so they could charge me this amount every month. But if their small print says that they are allowed to charge me £35 every month that the agreement was not mutual, then surely that means they are justified in charging that. How do I justify getting that back? OR are ANY such fines defined as "unlawful fixed fee penalty sums" as construed by consumer law? If that is the case then how could they possibly justify charging them in the first place? (I'm a bit confused here!)
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Just for the record, I attended the repossession hearing today at my local court. The lender's request for repossession was thrown out (the judgment was "suspended"). It is ironic that today was the very day that my third consecutive OVER payment went through to the lenders. I showed the printout of my bank statement to the lender's counsel and to the judge. Would you believe that the lender, Mortgages 2 Ltd (aka Mortgages plc) would not believe that the money went through as - in theory - it takes 24 hours to clear. The judge was fairly convinced, though! So thank you, Ell-enn and other CAGgers who correctly predicted this outcome.
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Thanks, Silverfox1961. I sent the SAR Signed For Delivery today so it will get to EE's head office tomorrow. The clock starts ticking down to 30 days from tomorrow, 4 July.
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Thanks, DragonFly1967, that's really helpful. I thought there was something a bit wrong with the Sunderland address!
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How does that make me rude and obstructive? I asked a simple question which anyone who is working for a company should know the answer to - the address of that company's data controller. This is an obligation under at least two sets of consumer and data protection laws. It wasn't as if I was asking an impossible question. Have a look again at the dialogue. Instead of answering a simple question which I had a legal right to ask, all I got was stonewalling and obfuscation. He had obviously been briefed by his managers (and probably his trainers as well, as his response was uncannily similar to the response given to me over the phone by the fellow in the Collections department) to keep me in the dark. Notice his tendency to refer me to the EE website, where I was already! The information I sought was not on the website which is why I had to use the chat facility. This issue has been going on for years, and I have been met with the same obstruction and doubletalk from EE. Read the whole thread again, if you please. I ask again: How does that make me rude and obstructive? Take as long as you like... but I believe you need to backup your position here.
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How am I being rude? Be specific please. It was not a call; it was an online chat via a 'chat window utility'. How am I being obstructive? Again, be as specific as you like. It is EE who are being obstructive. I simply wanted to know the name and address of the EE data controller - as is my legal right - and EE refused at several points to tell me. how does that make ME obstructive? sgtbush, if you're worried about forms of address, I deleted the operator's actual name to disguise his identity, as a courtesy, and I substituted it with 'EE Man'. You don't think I actually called him EE Man throughout, do you?
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yes I can't find the address of their head office. Their website doesn't say. It has several different locations but none of them have an actual address. But here's something interesting: EE is now part of BT. The guilt is componded! I've just tried their chat again, as there is no head office address anywhere on their site. The chat person this time gave the head office address as: EE Customer Administration 6 Camberwell Way Doxford Technology Park Doxford Sunderland SR3 3XN But that doesn't sound like a head office to me....
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EE obviously instruct their chat people not to tell anyone the identity of their Data Controller. Here's the conversation I just had using the online chat facility on the EE website: (Names are disguised tomprotect the guilty). Info at 16:31, Jul 2: Thank you for choosing to chat with us. An agent will be with you shortly. Info at 16:31, Jul 2: You are now chatting with EE Man. EE Man at 16:31, Jul 2: Hi, welcome to EE, the UK's biggest and fastest network. I'm EE Man on EE Service Chat in Tyneside. How may I help you today? Me at 16:32, Jul 2: Hi. What is the name and address of the EE Data Controller. EE Man at 16:33, Jul 2: we don't really have data controller Me, how can I help? Me at 16:33, Jul 2: You must have a Data Controller by law. Me at 16:34, Jul 2: So what is the name and address of the EE Data Controller. Me at 16:34, Jul 2: Believe me, you won't be able to help me with what I want! EE Man at 16:35, Jul 2: Ok let meask for you Me You ask away, EE Man. EE Man at 16:37, Jul 2: ok in order to try and direct you to the correct dept I will need some more info. is it for data usage or protection of your data? Me at 16:38, Jul 2: Come on ,EE Man. You only have one Data Controller. Me at 16:38, Jul 2: The ICO will want to know why you are being so evasive.... EE Man at 16:40, Jul 2: I have asked my manager we need more clarification on this is could be to do with info on your account request, the new eu data protection or the data you use on your phone? there will be different departments for each request Me at 16:40, Jul 2: EE Man, you disappoint me. Me at 16:41, Jul 2: Are you really refusing to tell me what I have a right to know under the new EU data protection law, or are you using it to hide behind? Me at 16:42, Jul 2: If the latter, then the IOC will CERTAINLY be interested to hear all about it, EE Man. EE Man at 16:43, Jul 2: am not refusing just trying to get you too the righ place and help you. Me at 16:43, Jul 2: I'm glad to hear it, EE Man! Let's hope you do it sooner rather than later. EE Man at 16:43, Jul 2: I need more information so I can guide you to the correct place or even try help you myself just trying to do my job Me EE Man at 16:43, Jul 2: I need more information so I can guide you to the correct place or even try help you myself just trying to do my job Me Me at 16:44, Jul 2: EE Man, you do your job by following the rules. EE Man at 16:44, Jul 2: I have even asked my manager and they have said to ask for more information so we can see what information you need Me at 16:45, Jul 2: Perhaps I need to speak to your manager. I'd hate it if I got you into trouble. Me at 16:46, Jul 2: And I have already told you what information I need, as you well know, EE Man. EE Man at 16:46, Jul 2: ok I will bare with me Me at 16:47, Jul 2: I hope not! Me at 16:47, Jul 2: "Bear" with you, perhaps. EE Man at 16:49, Jul 2: ok so we will need to verify the account for you first EE Man at 16:49, Jul 2: can I take the mobile number please Me? Me at 16:49, Jul 2: No, you just tell me the name and address of the EE Data Controller. Me at 16:50, Jul 2: My account details have no bearing on the name and address of the EE Data Controller. Me at 16:51, Jul 2: EE Man, you disappoint me. You are being extremely evasive. You do know that refusing to tell me this is an offence, don't you? EE Man at 16:51, Jul 2: We don't have that information we do have the complaints team you can get in touch with at www.ee.co.uk who will be more then happy to help you out Me at 16:52, Jul 2: If you don't have that information then that is ALSO a criminal offence. Me at 16:53, Jul 2: Would you like to have another think about it before I take this straight to the ICO? EE Man at 16:54, Jul 2: I have offered my help, any more information is on the ee website that you need to get in touch with us. I have talkd to 2 managers we need more information from you before we can continue to help you Me at 16:54, Jul 2: You have just committed an offence under at least two consumer laws. Me at 16:55, Jul 2: Goodbye, EE Man. And thank you for confirming what I already suspected. The ICO will be most interested to open yet another file on EE. --------------------------- Me at 16:54, Jul 2: You have just committed an offence under at least two consumer laws. Me at 16:55, Jul 2: Goodbye, EE Man. And thank you for confirming what I already suspected. The ICO will be most interested to open yet another file on EE. EE Man at 16:58, Jul 2: Sorry this is how you feel Me, I wouldn't be able to help you any further with relevant information to help you get to the right place. Any information you can visit the ee website Me at 16:59, Jul 2: EE Man, how I 'feel' is irrelevant. You have just broken the law and now you will be punished. Simple. EE Man at 16:59, Jul 2: without* Me at 16:59, Jul 2: EE Man, I am already ON the EE website! And you have refused to tell me! No there's no use directing me to the EE website, is there? EE Man at 17:00, Jul 2: I have asked information and help from my mangers this is what they have advised me Me at 17:00, Jul 2: That doesn't surprise me, EE Man. They are well in it! Me at 17:00, Jul 2: Don't worry about it. You're not to blame. Me at 17:01, Jul 2: Well, I'll have to leave it there. Nice chatting to you! Me at 17:01, Jul 2: *Mission accomplished* EE Man at 17:02, Jul 2: Sorry I couldn't help further Me, take care enjoy your day Me at 17:02, Jul 2: Oh, I will!
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Right, I've tried to get the name and address of EE's Dtata Controller and I can't find it anywhere. I've even had an interesting online chat with EE and the person I waas chatting to was most evasive. He refused to tell me!
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Yes, which is why I was surprised that I failed the security questions every time. They seemed to have a rolling series of questions whose order and presence was randomised. it is even more surprising that, in such a randomised sequence, I failed the questions every time. I have an interest in statistics and that is not the kind of thing that happens when encountered randomly - unless the whole thing is rigged or in some way skewed so that the security sequence is always failed.
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Thanks for very useful suggestions and advice. One of the problems about being fobbed off by Collections people is that they tend to sound so plausable. "so that you can get all the data they hold on you – especially records of all the calls you have made." Perhaps I should have made it clearer that the calls i made to them were from my landline, as my mobile phone was useless for making and receiving calls and text messages, of course. "All the calls you have made" from the mobile = 0.
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