Sadly, I feel that I have no choice Hedgey. I have already read the article on the link, and the consensus is that this OFT case is going to take a long time to reach its conclusion. The trouble is that I have run out of money, and I can simply no longer afford to wait. I will continue to pursue the claim on the business account, but I do feel that some of the wind has gone out of my sails. It is quite ghastly to let that £700 go, particularly at the moment, when it is so badly needed.

Given last evening's news, I very reluctantly concede that I am going to have to drop any further claim and accept the offer as it stands, sans interest. I am seriously out of pocket now, and NW have just defaulted my business account, against which they had not yet complied with the S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) for statements (after 3 months).It all seems too much of a coincidence - getting the default notice before I had got my preliminary letter done, and the very same day as the announcement by the banks and the OFT. I have a very bad feeling about this development I am afraid. I think I can detect the distinct whiff of a stitch-up.

Hedgey, many thanks. No, its not the 8% interest as on page 3 of the spready, but the OD interest as calculated in the right hand columns of page 2. Is there any point in accepting their offer (it is only an offer, because they haven't physically repaid me anything) as a partial refund, and stating that I will continue to pursue the balance through the courts or via the Ombudsman? Incidentally, good to see your success. You seem to have developed quite a little community here.

Hedgey, somebody, speak to me! The template for the LBA seems to assume that you have not had a response within the allotted period - I have, but I need to refuse because NW has docked 10% and the interest from their offer, effectively around £700. How do I respond to the passage I have shown in red in my original post, which clearly implies that the fees are not 'penalty charges' at all, but a service that I have requested. My other worry is that many of the charges are on the 'tail' of my claim i.e. date back the full six years. I am not now incurring charges on the account, so almost every day that passes sees the potential claim reducing as charges fall off the six year tail. I need to move to the next stage on this, and fast. Help, please, anybody!!

That proportion of the actual interest which has been charged to the account that relates to the unlawful charges, as on Vampy's spreadsheet

Have received Mr Higley's reply to my Preliminary Letter, offering around 90% of my claimed Unlawful Charges, but none of the proportional interest which had been applied and related to those charges, and which I had also requested. The letter is presumably the standard response, so advice needed on how to respond to the following paragraphs in what will effectively be my LBA; "Whilst many of our services are provided without a corresponding charge, we do make charges when customers, by their actions, request an increase to or the creation of an overdraft in excess of their previously agreed limit, in many instances allowing items to be paid either by creating or increasing an overdraft. These charges can be avoided completely by arranging suitable borrowing facilities in advance. For this reason we do not agree with the basis of your complaint. We believe that the charges we levy are for providing services and that they are not penalties or charges for default....."

Just for clarity, will the Ombudsman award charges PLUS the relevant proportion of simple interest as originally charged by your bank (as calculated on the spreadsheets) plus (as a final resort) the 8%, or will he only award the charges + (as a final resort) the 8%?

Yes, wise councel, I suspect. Thanks Curlyben.

Final payment on a Marbles (HFC) loan of £220.00 now overdue. However, unlawful charges totalling £165.00 have been taken from (added to) this account over its 5 year term. In addition HFC have taken a yet to be calculated amount in unlawful charges on a Beneficial card over 6 years. Would I be unwise to withold the final payment on the loan in lieu of the charges? I have not yet begun the reclaim process in either case.

Many thanks to you both. u20sr, I think you will find that old hands would advise that current opinion would have it that the courts would not look kindly upon your point (3) above, as they are unlikely to accept an unrealistically high rate of compound/contractual interest. I believe that few (if any) CI claims have yet succeeded in court, and that no court is now likely to award CI. CI claims that have succeeded before court have, again I believe, always been for relatively small sums. I understand that when you make a claim for CI you have to ask the court to consider also lower rates 'in the alternative.' I believe also that you are mistaken in asking for SI until the point of court filing. I suspect you may need to study the more recent postings on the subject of CI, and indeed Vampiresses' reply to my question, and perhaps review your claim - you may be asking for too much, and too soon. This does though illustrate how confusing and lacking in clarity this whole subject is, and I wonder if the Beginners Guide/FAQ section might need a dust-off. Vampiress, thankyou again - much clearer now. Would you suggest NatWest's current standard overdraft rate for calculating the interest in your point (2) above?

A few billion is a drop in the ocean for the banking industry. One would have though that they would just say a BIG sorry, pay up and then have a serious and very public look at the manner in which they build and maintain a relationship with their customers, rather than have their image and reputation utterly destroyed in the eyes of the public by this steady drip-drip of quite appalling PR. I suspect that the problem lies in the potential repurcussions. Should they own up to having behaved unlawfully, it is very likely that individuals and businesses will start pursuing them for damages, and that could get SERIOUSLY expensive.

Having studied this forum until my eyes glazed, and entered into a PM discussion with the ever helpful Vampiress on the topic of Contractual Interest, I remain confused as to the advice that the forum offers on the matter of requesting a refund of charges plus interest (or not) from the Preliminary Letter onwards. I have concluded (I think) that Contractual (ie compounded) interest is a no-no, or at least inadvisable, and that the 8% Statutory Interest has to wait until court filing. However, there seems to be conflicting advice as to whether to charge back, from the PL onwards, some kind of flat rate or simple interest on the (and only on the) unlawful charges themselves. The banks have obviously levied interest against these charges, so one assumes that that interest, or some estimation thereof, should be subject to refund along with the charges themselves. The General Guidelines advise including this form of interest in the claim, and the Vampiresses spreadsheets have a facility to include it. However, advice within this and other forums often states that NO interest should be claimed until the point of Court Filing, when the 8% SI should be added. Some clarity is desperately needed here. My questions, therefore; 1. Should you include an estimated simple interest on the charges from the Preliminary Letter onwards? 2. If so, at what rate should you charge that interest? Some thoughts on this quite desperately required, as I am never going to get my PL in until I can make a decision on this. My charges alone, on two accounts with NW, come to in excess of £10,000, so I need to get it right from the outset.

Whoops, that didn't work. The messaging software drops the frames. Is there another way to do this, or can anybody understand the thread of my questions without actually seeing the figures?? All help gratefully received. I am a lousy mathematician, but once I get a grasp of this I shall be OK.

I need some of you old hands to look at this. 1. You will notice that some months I haven't filled in -this was because the account was in credit and no interest was charged. Should I insert these months anyway? 2. Why in some months does all the interest charged show as the same as interest paid on penalties -surely the interest paid on the penalties should only be a proportion of the overall interest charged. 3. Why, when the account finishes the month in credit, does no interest get allocated to the interest paid on penalties. The account was often in credit only for a short period. This seems very confusing. Am I doing something completely wrong? Incedentally, the interest PA on this example is 29.5%. Would also be grateful if someone could look at my earlier thread on APR/PA calcs. INTEREST DATEINTEREST CHARGEDACCOUNT BALANCE AT INTEREST DATEINTEREST FREE OVERDRAFTINTEREST PAID ON PENALTIES28/02/20011.74-940.19 £0.1430/03/20017.79-836.34 £1.5630/04/200110.30-1,138.72 £1.8631/05/20019.94-908.93 £3.2329/06/20018.59-408.37 £6.5031/07/20017.18-1,131.79 £2.5231/08/200113.97-854.64 £7.9628/09/20019.67-940.05 £5.9331/10/200113.77564.41 £0.0030/11/20018.94-866.13 £6.7531/12/200113.17-994.31 £10.0431/01/200218.34-532.40 £18.3428/02/200216.88-816.37 £16.8828/03/20029.62-808.77 £9.6230/04/200210.04-1,268.08 £8.8231/05/200214.2010,253.49 £0.0028/06/20027.8871,071.99 £0.0031/07/20022.1167,880.65 £0.0030/04/20032.345,550.52 £0.0031/07/20037.431,198.57 £0.0030/09/20035.99-2,136.11 £4.0831/10/200329.59-2,939.35 £20.8528/11/200349.03-393.58 £49.0331/12/200316.47422.88 £0.0030/01/20044.03-19.73 £4.0327/02/20043.93-863.25 £3.9331/03/20049.61-755.84 £9.6130/04/200412.93-246.70 £12.9328/05/20049.54-633.96 £9.5430/06/20048.82-739.30 £8.8228/07/200410.89-1,045.31 £10.8931/08/2004£12.26-£1,153.90 £12.2630/09/2004£17.22-£1,080.26 £17.2229/10/2004£14.17£341.57 £0.0030/11/2004£5.01-£956.38 £5.0131/12/2004£9.68-£590.43 £9.6831/01/2004£6.21-£483.78 £6.2128/02/2004£3.10-£372.16 £3.1031/03/2004£2.49£683.89 £0.0029/04/2004£7.47-£427.68 £7.4731/05/2005£3.40£9,247.00 £0.0030/06/2005£5.45£2,198.70 £0.0031/08/2005£4.33-£110.35 £4.3330/09/2005£4.47-£1,041.20 £4.4731/10/2005£10.39£192.85 £0.0030/11/2005£10.16-£898.33 £10.1631/12/2005£7.19£658.54 £0.0031/01/2006£4.63-£720.55 £4.6328/02/2006£7.24£81.90 £0.0031/03/2006£2.71-£460.19 £2.7128/04/2006£7.57-£942.82 £7.5731/05/2006£9.07-£958.37 £9.0730/06/2006£13.58-£633.35 £13.5831/07/2006£9.87-£774.28 £9.8731/08/2006£11.84-£1,075.18 £11.8429/09/2006£11.54-£1,054.78 £11.5431/10/2006£12.69-£1,000.53 £12.6930/11/2006£14.62-£966.15 £14.6229/12/2006£12.52-£1,114.67 £12.5231/01/2007£13.58-£1,282.25 £13.5828/02/2007£21.28-£1,457.53 £21.2830/03/2007£20.85-£1,419.37 £20.85

1. Tackling the advanced spreadsheet, and going for Contractual Interest. Just want to check the definitions of percentage rates. I seem to remember that there are different ways of calculating rates (APRs). My bank (NatWest) quotes an unnarranged OD rate of 29.5% PA. Is this the figure that I enter into the box labelled APR? ie, does Per Annum equate to Annual Percentage Rate? 2. Can the spreadsheet handle different rates at various periods. NatWest has charged an unarranged rate of both 29.5% and 33.5% during the 6 years. I will also need to do the sheet again using their standard rates, which have varied from 13.49% to 14.99%. If I can't put in different rates, would I be advised to go for the lower sum charged in each category through the 6 year period? With thanks. Gradually getting the hang of all this, but it does take time