I think you are correct in that without the agreement they cannot enforce the debt. Unfortunately though it came out late in the term that the agreement does not exist and the term has now been completed albeit within the last couple of months. The only reason I asked for a copy of the agreement was due to HFC withdrawing funds from my account but not under their name but that of another (if you get what I mean!). TBH, I didn't even realise that I still had an agreement with them as it should have been paid off years earlier. I will sort out a SAR and ultimately I will end up taking them to court. Thank you again to all. Remorse

I was doing paraplanning this time last year and Windsor Life were the bain of my life. Unfortunately there isn't much you can do to rush them along as they appear to do everything in their own sweet time. The only thing I can suggest is a formal complaint. Not sure how they have calculated your income but if they calculate lump sum and income on the day that they get round to it, you could try and find out if the valuation was higher on the day that all documentation was complete so you may be able to request compensation on the difference? Remorse

Many thanks for the responses. I requested a copy of the agreement in Dec 2007 and subsequently in Jan 2008 but they have readily admitted to both us and the ombudsman in writing that they don't have the agreement but 'their computer records hold all information necessary to service our agreement'. Hmmm - they obviously have never suffered with administrative difficulties I will write the LBA today - does anyone have an address on who it should go to? I was dealing with central complaints until they told me that they would no longer deal with the complaint - despite them not actually telling or providing me with the information I asked for in the first place. Thank you again for all your help. Remorse

Dear All, I was wondering if you could point me in the right direction of what to put in a LBA. I have had direction from FOS that my complaint is a legal complaint so I need to take it through a legal direction and I don't believe that I can do this without an LBA - is this correct? My complaint surrounds 3 aspects and I don't know if they are all relevant to put in the LBA or not? - Term of a loan - Type of loan - inclusion of PPI In short, we were sold a 5 year fixed rate loan to finance a kitchen purchase but what appears to have happened is that the agreement was set up for 10 years and was a variable rate agreement. HFC are saying to FOS that they are unable to provide a copy of the original agreement and FOS are saying that due to this they are therefore unable to adjudicate. If you can help me with what is relevant I would be grateful. Many thanks Remorse

Hiya, Many thanks for posting the response. To aide your complaint with the ombudsman, can I just clarify something for you? (Please don't shoot me but if it has been mis-sold, I don't want an adjudicator throwing it out on a technicality;) ) The Critical Illness Cover (CIC) is a completely different policy from the life assurance cover offered by your (ex) employer. The Critical Illness policy is designed to pay out on diagnosis of a cricital illness where as the life assurance, more commonly referred to as death in service, only pays out in the event of your death during your employment. The advising of CIC policies alongside life cover policies is common practice as research shows you are more likely to suffer physical impairment than die during the term of a mortgage. I think, reading between the lines, your complaint should refer to the following: - the selling of an additional CIC policy when one was already in operation, why did the FPM not consider increasing the cover available. - you were lead to believe that by taking out a CIC policy as well as the MPP, this would aide your mortgage application. - the terms and conditions of the policy were not fully explained to you ie, HSBC are saying that you received documentation in writing but what was actually said to you about the product? Did they give examples of when it would pay out? I hope that this is of use but if I can help in anyway, please let me know. Kind regards D x

Hiya, Thank you for the clarification. As the 1st policy was only running for 3 years and the company's comment that they don't hold records going back that far, I suspect that the policy had no value when you cancelled it and as they only need to keep records from 7 years after a relationship ends, I don't think they are going to be forthcoming. However, I would still write to them saying that you are in correspondence with the ombudsman regarding a churn of this policy and would be grateful if they could provide you with anything that they hold regarding your policy - premium history, copy of your cancellation letter and anything else they can provide that may assist your conversations with the ombudsman. Your idea about asking for your file from the 2nd company is well worth doing, however, you need to make sure that the company you write to is the company that will be holding the sales information. If you want to PM me details of who holds your endowment and who the sellers company was I should be able to find out where you need to write to. If I was adjudicating your case, I believe you but what is missing is the evidence which I fear may be hard to come by to prove your claim. If there is anything that I can do, please let me know. Kind regards D x

Hi Lizzy, From what you are saying your first endowment is still running albeit paid up ie, it still has a value. I would suggest that you get hold of a copy of the premium history as well as a copy of the letter in which you requested that the policy be paid up. This will give details of the dates and could tie in with establishing the new plan. The factfind being incorrect is slightly concerning as it should have been explained to you that the advice being given was done so on the basis of the factfind. If the policy is noted as being paid up, when it wasn't and you have signed to it, the FOS may consider that the advice given was correct based on the information. I am, therefore, conscious that the 'reason why letter' which you should also have received may not mention why the policy was paid up as the factfind does not detail it as live. A couple of things to try and get hold of would be from both providers: a copy of the policy schedule, t&c's of the endowments along with the sum assured which could show enough evidence of a churn. It is possible that the cover provided by the second policy was more superior than the first but this does call into question a few of the points ie, factfind showing the policy as paid up as you would normally expect that if you were replacing a policy with a more superior policy why would you show it as paid up. I assuming that you are still paying into the 2nd policy so I would check with both of the providers about commission and whether it is still being paid and to whom. HTH D x

Hi Lizzy, I think from what you are saying that the policy that you hold now was sold by a tied adviser, therefore, I would hope that the current company that you are with would hold evidence of the current sale as well as details of why it was sold over a previous endowment. In theory (and in a majority of cases) a company should retain details of a customers policy 7 years post the end date of a relationship with a customer ie, surrender, termination etc. The only potential fly in the ointment so to speak is if it was an introducer which is where the adviser works for another company but is authorised to introduce the business to another company. This would, therefore, mean that the endowment company will not hold records of why it was sold etc. Request the information from your endowment provider and make sure they let you know if they are still paying commission (if that was how it was set up which tbh, was the norm for the period of your sale) and to whom. If the policy was sold by an introducer it is possible that they are still receiving commission and, therefore, they should still be holding the records. If you need help with untangling any information you get, please let me know. I'll also put my thinking cap on over the day to see if there is anything else you can do. D x

Hi David, The only way to be able to take your pension before age 50 (currently, soon to be 55 from 2010) is by way of a special dispensation on medical grounds which would need to be agreed by the administrator. HTH D x

Hi Jon, I see that you have recently moved to Spain, therefore, it is unlikely that the CIC policy will cover you. However, before you cancel it based on that, please contact your insurer who will give you more information. Also, you should be able to ask your insurer to remove this aspect from your endowment. I would advocate talking to your insurer sooner rather than later. HTH D x

No worries. PPI and CIC are 2 different policies although I do accept what you are saying about them being the same(ish). I am not in an informed position so couldn't say whether this policy has been missold but I would say that from the point of view of knowing the CIC policies that there are some very good ones out there (there are equally some really awful ones) and as it is designed to provide a lump sum on diagnosis of a CI it can be more beneficial than PPI especially as you can decide where the benefit is utilised - ie, it doesn't have to be utilised to pay off a debt - you could have the most fantastic holiday Keep us informed of how your complaint goes as, I agree, like PPI some may have been sold as being a necessity of a mortgage offer which I would disagree with. Take Care. D x

Hi RDM, Can I just clarify that PPI and Critical Illness policies are 2 different types of policies. I appreciate that the Critical Illness policy may have been misold but I would just like to clarify. A critical illness policy is a lump sum assurance policy whereas PPI is a insurance benefit payment. In essence, a critical illness policy is established to pay out a lump sum on diagnosis of a 'critical' illness whereas PPI pays out the monthly benefit to cover a specific credit deal ie, loan. PPI normally also pays out on redundancy where as critical illness does not. You mention that your employer provides death in service which again is a different pay out compared to the Critical Illness policy. Hope this helps. D x

This is where it is extremely difficult for administrators. The pension legislation that came in effectively changed the onus on who was to check limits etc. Prior to A day, it was the responsibility of the administrator to ensure that a contribution did not exceed the maximum IR limits. Since A day, the responsbility falls on the customer. With regards to the trivality aspect it gets even more complex - an administrator would potentially be crossing the line if they were to suggest trivality or holding on as this could be deemed as advice which an administrator is not qualified to do. I truely do understand where you are coming from but as I have been a pension administrator (not with Pru) on the otherside of the fence, so to speak, it can be a frustrating job! Let me know how you get on with your letter. D x

Hi, Thank you for that. You mention that you think this is a drawdown arrangement - I do suspect annuity though based on the wording above. If it is drawdown you would still be receiving fund value statements and would have been notified that the income levels were subject to review every 3 or 5 years (depends on what Pru were doing at the time as A day rules changed the review period). Also, drawdown arrangements have a minimum and maximum income level hence my feeling that you have an annuity. Assuming it is an annuity I have done some digging to find out if anyone has managed to commute their annuity to cash at a later date. Unfortunately, I haven't found anything. The problem I can see is that when the pension minus your tax free cash is placed into a annuity this product is designed to provide an income for the remainder of your life (simple terms - additional features available such as spouses pension) and the company have entered into a contract with you on that basis. There is no harm in you formally writing to them quoting your telephone conversation and requesting that you receive a written response within 14 days. If you don't receive a response within 14 days, I would put a complaint in writing to their customer relations team - address is on their website. I would be asking if their plan conditions would allow you to now commute the annuity to cash utilising the triviality rules (HMRC does allow for pensions in payment to be commuted but in theory this is an annuity contract now rather than a pension contract - technicalities I know ) What I would say though is to think carefully before doing this - annuities are calculated based on criteria and there is every possibility that in the long term you would receive more income from the annuity route that the original purchase price of the annuity. Also, if Pru were to allow the annuity to be commuted to cash, you would be taxed on the lump sum. Does this help? As I said above, this is based on this being an annuity contract, if it isn't please let me know. Kind regards D x

Hiya, Are we talking about a personal pension or an occupational pension prior to you receiving an income? I have assumed a personal pension but from what you are saying it could an income arising from a previous occupational pension you had. Hmmmmm, you've got me thinking now & it is too late in the night for me to be thinking at all let alone about pensions If you can let me know about the policy you held before you starting taking your policy, I will have to do some research. Night D x