Again, I'd appreciate the assistance if you wouldn't mind!

Well, it seems some feathers have been ruffled, and the complaint to the council finally got some action. Got a reply immediately from the Council telling us they were looking in to it, and they'd be in touch. Just got 2 letters from Phoenix - one by normal mail, and one by 9AM guaranteed next day special delivery! The first one - phoenix-20111124-letter1.pdf - is an "if you want all personal data, send £10, but here's the statement we have to give you", with the information in the statement. The second - phoenix-20111124-letter2.pdf - is a retort from Phoenix. We have no communications on 1st, 9th, 21st and 30th April which he is pointing out on the first page. I will see if there's a such letter that was sent out when the arrangement was made re the £10 broken arrangement fee - is it possible that's a binding agreement? I've been unable to locate such a document. Not sure what to make of the comments about the 50p processing fees. Regarding the comment about the bailiff "inadvertently entered the figures £285.50 manually and this was incorrect the figure had he acted would have been £259.50" - £259.50 being £140 above the amount currently due according to them - which doesn't seem to quite add up. Judging by their £120 van fee (if it was a second visit after a walking possession if he'd had one), where has the extra £20 come from? This seems to nicely gloss over the "error" made by the bailiff, which I think is complete rubbish. They also comment about the querying or offering settlement on the debt - it was queried as mentioned earlier in this thread as soon as I became aware of it and consulted with the people on here. "Nobody was attempting to defraud you, or deceive or cheat you in any way" - sounded like the bailiff who turned up was attempting to do just that, just wish I'd recorded it now, but my phone was on the blink. I'm also curious as to why "You, or rather a person identifying themselves as your friend, have since contacted our office and they were advised to deal with the bailiff as they in their conversation stated quite categorically you would not be paying the debt" - where at any point in the documentation was this stated? I suspect they're watching this thread themselves. (For the record, while I've helped her get the documentation she needs together to sort this out, and get the assistance we need to make sure she pays the fair legal amount, as I've said all along, but she's sent all the documentation off herself.) I'd appreciate any feedback anyone has, I'm not sure exactly where to take this now.

Okay, here's the latest version - lettertocouncilceo-phoenix-v2.pdf - with the assistance provided by wonkeydonkey. Seems to look pretty reasonable, and I've incorporated a few things of my own, hopefully it'll be quite effective. If anyone has any feedback before this goes in the post to the council later, I'd appreciate it. Once we get some feedback from the council, I'll post up here with the response.

It was a different bailiff who visited on the October occasions, it was him who supplied me with the information that the first chap had visited and who he was.

I just checked - he was on the certified list on 15/06/2009 to 14/06/2011.

I'd really appreciate that if you could! I'm going to make the call re Robert Clegg being on the Register when I get chance at work too.

Done some refinements to the document - the latest version is here, which I think pretty much nails it on the dot - lettertocouncilceo-phoenix.pdf - and it'll get sent today. Any other feedback is appreciated. Thanks simonf1975 for the notes you sent through, I've used them to rework the wording on the document a bit

Sorry about that, fixed up some of the wording. Hopefully this one will be suitable to send up! Edit: Updated the document, see below.

Do to minor PC issues, I've only just got the letter composed for the council. Feedback requested before I send it! I think I've got everything in it that's required, hopefully I've got the wording right too. Edit: Wording isn't quite right, new version to follow.

For the record, I've attached the letter (phoenix5.pdf) that Phoenix sent out. Next stop: formal complaint to the local councillor, council and Phoenix, I think. Will upload it for review once it's written.

Well, Phoenix still haven't come back with a breakdown, just a letter saying that the arrangements have been broken and attempts to deal with it have been ignored or non-fruitful, and a demand for the balance (of £109.50, the same that the council claimed was remaining on the account/liability order) within 7 days. Is it worth paying this to get the thing cleared, or should we be pushing for the full breakdown and refunds of the card fees? I've just started to put together a formal complaint to send to the council executive and the local councillor, but could do with a bit of clarification as to whether it's worth getting this paid off and out of the way now. I'll get a scan of the letter later when I get hold of it, so there's a copy up to view. Edit: Apparently they're asking for £119.50, not £109.50 - at a guess their £10 "broken arrangement fee". After looking over the initial charges / payments made to the council, the initial £24.50 + £18 visit fees were immediately taken out before the council received anything, so no getting any of that back, so it looks like the only thing they've slapped on now is their £10 "broken arrangement fee", which upon further reading isn't allowed. The 4x 50p in card fees, plus another 50p for the final settlement - I can't tell if they're allowed or not, as there seems to be conflicting information reading up on here. But that £10 is definitely getting disputed.

Well, I just had an encounter and a discussion with the bailiff in question. the main fees are to do with a £10 broken arrangement fee (from when she missed the payment in September), an attendance fee of £120 (he turned up in a small van today and claimed that justified said charge, which I told him I was disputing), if we sorted it there and then they wouldn't charge a walking possession fee and another fee which i can't remember for certain, think it was a visit fee or something similar (£32, £12 respectively) if she wanted to reinstate a payment plan (to which I pointed out he can't actually do that unless he gains peaceful entry to the properly, which he agreed with). He also said there were 2 previous visits by a bailiff (non-existant, no paperwork through the door, no sign of a visit) on 23rd and 29th of March. He said he could give me a breakdown, but it'd just be the same as the above scribbled on a sheet, to which I said fair enough, we'll get it from the office. He then said he's going to drop this particular case and defer it back to the head office, and they should be somewhat more co-operative then than when it's out with a bailiff. To give him a little credit, he didn't seem aggressive or pushy, although he did seem to backtrack and seem a bit less sure of his footing when I pointed out the lack of legality behind his charges. So far, so good really, he won't be returning, and now the onus is on Phoenix to come back with the requested breakdown. I'm guessing most of the above charges aren't actually valid.

Just got this from Chrome when I logged in... Warning: Something's Not Right Here! www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk contains content from llopitaka.orge.pl, a site known to distribute malware. Your computer might catch a virus if you visit this site. Google has found that malicious software may be installed onto your computer if you proceed. If you've visited this site in the past or you trust this site, it's possible that it has just recently been compromised by a hacker. You should not proceed. Why not try again tomorrow or go somewhere else? We have already notified llopitaka.orge.pl that we found malware on the site. For more about the problems found on llopitaka.orge.pl, visit the Google Safe Browsing diagnostic page. Dodgy include somewhere, maybe a bad iframe / advert?

Sending this back today - phoenix4-reply.pdf - seems to be succinct and to the point. Essentially the first letter with the following paragraph: "With regard to the letter received today (20th October 2011), I re-iterate the below, which you are legally obliged to provide, and is not a Subject Access Request. It is a request for a breakdown of your charges, not a request for personal information." Is it worth pointing out the original request was sent on the 13th, and they now have 3 days to provide the information in question? I suspect they'll try to continue to stall otherwise. Edit: Thinking of going with the following text at the top: Seem reasonable enough?

Well, we just had an entirely unproductive session with the council. They spoke to their recoveries department, who confirmed the 109.50 owed to them, but apparently had no access to retrieve the breakdown, although we did get the name of the recoveries manager. They kept trying to push us back to Phoenix to find out what their costs are, but to put a complaint in writing if we were still unhappy to said recoveries manager. She didn't seem to understand at all that the point I was trying to make was that it was now the council's responsibility to deal with them and get the breakdown. Her suggestion was to actually call said bailiff and get the breakdown (as mentioned on the above document), which seems inadvisable - the golden rule from what I remember is to keep everything in writing. She spoke to their recoveries department to ask if they could log in and find out exactly what the breakdown was, but I got the same reply. They also re-iterated that they wouldn't accept payment just of the 109.50 to discharge the liability order, they'd want the whole lot that the bailiff company was requesting, before they'd clear the account. I'm guessing the next stop is to write a much more strongly worded letter to Phoenix, and getting on the phone to the local councillors to deal with the lack of understanding at the council? This is getting extremely frustrating. Edit: They've just replied again to the mail sent to them - this just arrived in the mail which is Phoenix saying "We'll happily give you all the information we have on you in return for an SAR and £10" - they're still missing the point here that they have to provide said breakdown... either that, or they're trying to extort even more money out, or just plain can't read. Original letter sent to Phoenix - phoenix3-reply.pdf Reply from Phoenix suggesting SAR request - phoenix4.pdf

If you'll excuse my ignorance, what would that mean in terms of proceeding? Taking said letter into the council and saying "your bailiffs are being obstructive, I want to clear this now"? When the council were last spoken to, they said they could take the account back in-house, but she'd have to pay the bailiff fees at the same time, and it was inadvisable to do so if they were under dispute, as mentioned above. (Apologies if it's a stupid question, I'm just scratching my head a bit as to how to proceed there.)

Phoenix have responded to the request with the following: "We refer to your recent contact with our office and write to inform you that this case is currently allocated to Certificated Bailiff, [name] who can be contacted on [number]. We would strongly suggest contacting our bailiff direct to resolve this matter. Document: phoenix3.pdf. They appear to be trying to force a phonecall to the bailiff in question. Are they allowed to do that?! Sounds like another way to get someone on the phone to pressure them to me... As an unrelated side note, as she's single parent living alone in her house with her son, is it worth putting something in writing such as the vulnerable person text at http://www.consumerwiki.co.uk/index.php/Bailiffs:_Useful_Template_Letters#Vulnerable_Situations ?

A quick query (which may affect the charges they've got, when we find out what they are) - if they've levied a car that's on a HPL (that clearly states in the paperwork that it belongs to the finance company until completely paid off) is said levy null and void?

Is it worth paying the £109.50 to the council via an online payment to clear the remaining debt to them, then working on the disputed charges with Phoenix, while we wait for Phoenix to come back to us?

Will do. I'll come back once they respond!

Rightyho. I'll get her to send off a letter - I'm guessing recorded delivery would be advantageous here to avoid any potential wriggling out of "we didn't receive it" type responses. Will the above letter - minus the non-applicable phrases, and with the addition of content requesting information on the 50p charges - do the job, or does it need to be a full SAR? Thank you again for the advice here, it's been quite invaluable. hallowitch: Not as far as I'm aware, nor does it specify anything on the paperwork, there was no car there, there's nothing in the area for them to levy, and access to her back yard is suitably locked.

Hi again, No offence taken whatsoever, I'm passing on second hand information, which was difficult to fully quantify. I've got a much more detailed picture now, which makes a lot more sense. A liability order was originally granted for £267, of which £109.50 remains (they've received £157.50 out of the £200 (technically £202 with card fees) paid to Phoenix, 1x £7.50 and 3x £150). They received the first payment on 26th May, and the latest on 18th August, which correlates to around 3 weeks after each payment was made to them. Unfortunately I don't have an exact date it was granted, as I didn't see the reply until after I headed back to the office. They did say they could take the account back in-house, but it'd mean paying their charges, which if in dispute could make it awkward later to retrieve them. Is it possible to revoke their bailiff's demand to come on her payday (and subsequently make a further charge), particularly while any fees are in dispute? The amount they're requesting is currently £176 higher.

Thanks for the tips there PT. I'm going to accompany her to the council offices today, and clarify whether they've actually obtained any sort of liability order and if so, for how much, or they've just sent the heavies in regardless. That should give me a much better picture of where she stands.

There was never a liability order applied - or if there was, no paperwork regarding it ever arrived. This seems to be fairly common for Pendle Borough Council, I've had similar issues with them before - be a day behind with a payment, whether it's yours or their fault, and they send it to debt recovery companies. I'll get them into PDFs now, sorry about that. Edit: Now attached as inline PDFs. She said while she didn't immediately contact the council when she was behind, she did query it as soon as she was contacted by Phoenix, as when she got her next bill through as it'd shown to be carried over as well, and the girl on the phone didn't know what she was talking about. I'm guessing the next step is to find out if a LO was ever applied, as she's quite certain she has received no letters from the court.

Hi everyone, A friend of mine is being hassled by Phoenix Collections regarding some arrears on a council tax bill, and I've volunteered to help her out. In a nutshell, she ended up 2 months behind with her council tax, which totalled £267. The council passed it onto Phoenix to collect on, they got in touch with her, and she agreed to pay it, which they said the balance associated was 259.50, at £50 a month (phoenix1.pdf). She cleared £200 of it, but missed a payment in September, and they're now demanding the remaining balance - which has jumped to £285.50, regardless of the amount she's paid off. A bailiff apparently visited her home while she was at work, and handed a letter to her teenage son (attachment phoenix2.pdf). Since then, she called the bailiff up, who left her quite distraught, and bullied her into agreeing to him coming to her door when she's paid after the end of the month. Having contacted Pendle Borough Council, apparently they've received nothing from Phoenix as of yet., although the balance on the "balance brought forward" on the council tax bill is labelled at £267. From scanning over the forum, my first thought is to request a full breakdown of fees from them, and revoke their permission to turn up on her doorstep. I'm not sure whether it requires an SAR or just a fee breakdown request, but something along the lines of the following gleaned from various other posts was my thought on an attack route: From: [friend in question, address] To: Phoenix Commercial Collections [etc] Dear Sir With reference to the above account. Can you please provide me with a breakdown of the charges including a suitable computer screenshot. This includes: a - the time & date of any bailiff action that incurred a Fee. b - the reason for the fee. c - the name(s) of the Bailiff(s) that attended on each occasion a Fee was charged. d - the name(s) of the Court(s) the Bailiff(s) was/were Certificated at. e - the date of the Certification. This is not a Subject access request under the Data Protection Act S7 1998 so does not incur a fee of £10. You are obliged to provide this information. I require this information within 14 days. Please be advised that I will only communicate with you in writing. Furthermore, should it be your intention to arrange a “doorstep call”, please be advised that under OFT rules, you can only visit me at my home if you make an appointment and I have no wish to make an appointment with you, and the appointment made with your bailiff was under emotional duress, which I am withdrawing. There is only an implied license under English Common Law for people to be able to visit me on my property without express permission; the postman and people asking for directions etc (Armstrong v. Sheppard and Short Ltd [1959] 2 Q.B. per Lord Evershed M.R.). Therefore take note that I revoke license under Common Law for you, or your representatives to visit me at my property and if you do so, then you will be liable to damages for a tort of trespass and action will be taken, including but not limited to, police attendance. Yours faithfully [friend's name] As a side note, are they allowed to charge 50p a pop for each card payment? I'd really appreciate any advice or guidance anyone can give me on this issue. I'm far from an expert in this sort of thing, but one thing I do hate is bullies, ridiculous charges, and seeing how much upset this has caused. I really want to put this to rights.