The perfect 48 hours - a full offer on Friday followed by a newborn son; Joshua (Josh); at 06:41 this morning. Doesn't get much better than that, although it must be said that I haven't checked last nights lottery yet! Doesn't bare thinking about :o

I want a nice *****WON***** on my thread but all of the moderator's I've tried to PM have full a full Inbox Never mind, I won't let it spoil my day too much

Full offer plus another £100 (not asking what this is for???) received this morning. Perserverance is the key, and DG now seem to be settling only when they know that claimants are serious about going to court; the submission of a court bundle in my instance. Good luck to all those whose claims remain outstanding. I intend to remain a regular on the board, and to pass on the fruits of my knowledge for what they are worth!!

Wow!!! It's been a rocky old ride since 27 February but it's almost time to jump off. I still can't quite believe it but DG, with their usual standard template (apart from one bit that I'll address later), have offerred an "ex-gratia" payment totalling the full amount of charges, plus interest, plus another £100 on top. What a result I do not intend to comply with their request to keep the details confidential. Thanks for all the support and assistance from fellow CAG members - too many to name individually, but I must single out Latty - you're always there for everyone with your words of wisdom and encouragement. A true gem! I have a theory on the additional monies, and something that others may wish to adopt in terms of future nudge letters to DG. In my 3rd (and what turns out to be final) nudge I stated the following and had every intention of pursuing it further such was my annoyance at their failure to speak to me and save me the time and effort of producing the court bundle:- Furthermore, if you fail to submit your evidence to the court by the latest date as directed by the Distric Judge, should judgement be subsequently found in my favour I hereby notify you of my intention to seek appropriate counsel regarding the submission of a Wasted Costs Order. This would be on the basis that you had no intention of defending my claim in court and were merely abusing the court process in order to prolong this matter, which appears to have been the approach in numerous other cases of which I am aware. In response they have stated that:- Finally, we take note of your intention to seek counsel regarding the submission of a 'wasted costs order'. HSBC has not acted unreasonably. The only basis that you have given for asserting that HSBC acted unreasonably is your view that HSBC "had no intention of ever defending my claim in court". You seem to be suggesting that it was somehow unreasonable for HSBC to have entered a Defence to your claim. Their is nothing inappropriate or unreasonable about this. It is of course open to a defendant against whom a claim has been issued to defend the claim and then seek to negotiate to see if an appropriate settlement can be reached. I just wonder if the extra £100 is something of a sweetener, i.e. we appreciate that we've wasted your time. Please don't proceed with a Wasted Costs Order - here's £100 for your incidental costs. I can think of no other valid reason, barring a mistake (to my benefit), why they would want to pay out more than what we'd asked for. I'm not going to argue the point though, and probably won't proceed with a Wasted Costs Order as a result.

The letter has arrived but I've got to nip out so I'll be back shortly to tell all....good news though

I have a feeling that the shock of one may well induce the other

Quick, Freaky, get me that Ambulance! Would you believe it but less than 2 hours after sending an email to Kate to inform her that my Court Bundle is on the way, I was sat down with a cup of tea and a biscuit when the phone rang..........and Rachel Dabydoyal from DG Solicitors announced herself. I nearly choked on my Ginger Snap! Rachel informed me that due to the amount of claims with which Kate is dealing some of them, including my wife's, had been passed to her. She informed me that a letter will be sent to my wife by 1st class post today, but she couldn't disclose what that contained as I was not the account holder (despite my wife having sent them written authority to deal with, and disclose information to, me). Anyway I didn't argue the toss and merely thanked Rachel for getting in touch. So, I'll be waiting to snap the Postie's hand off in the morning. Let's hope it's good news!!! Please.

Thanks for the good wishes Freaky. That's not a bad idea emailing them, just to say that they should expect to receive my Court Bundle tomorrow.

Well, 2 Inkjet Cartridges, 1 and a bit reams of paper, and about 7 hours of printing and collating later, the Court Bundle is all done. I've hand delivered 1 copy to the court this morning and sent another, by Special Delivery, to DG. Rather funny when the lady at the Post Office asked the value of the contents and I explained that there were 200+ sheets of paper that were, hopefully, worth £xxxx!! Could be rather interesting if they fail to deliver them as once I had told her that the cost of delivery went up another £2! Fingers crossed for an offer soon. Has anyone ever managed to speak to DG? I've left 3 voice messages on the phone number that they put on the defence paperwork to MCOL (which belongs to Rachel Tomlinson, despite Kate Eaves' name being on the paperwork??), most recently yesterday when I phoned to obtain the name of the person to whom the court bundle needed to be addressed (as none of my letters addressed to Kate have been acknowledged let alone replied to), but still they didn't ring me back. They've seriously hacked me off , especially as our baby is now 8 days late and showing no imminent signs of appearing!!

You must have read my mind Michael! Just this moment finished changing it to "further argues". Nice spot though!

Apologies in advance but hold on to your hats cos it's a long 'un! Court Bundle needs to be submitted 20 June, wife already 4 days overdue with baby, so thought I should get my finger out and start pulling everything together ready for printing before it all gets rather hectic! I'm quite happy with what I need to submit (thanks Latty!), but I'd like a fresh set of eyes to mull over my statement of evidence, so I'm posting it below (minus all personal info of course). I'm particularly interested in thoughts on paras 10 & 11 as I've added these in as my own interpretation of how the terms & conditions of the account were breached by my wife (para 10) and how the descriptions of the charges applied by HSBC contradict their "service charge" defence (para 11). Is there anything else within the T&C's that need to be highlighted in support of the claim? Do I need to PM a Moderator and have them take a look? Thanks in advance for any comments. Cheers, LP Claim Number:xxxxxxx In the xxxxxxx County Court Between: xxxxxxxxxxxxx (Claimant) and HSBC Bank Plc (Defendant) _________________________ ______ STATEMENT OF EVIDENCE _______________________ 1. The Claimant has a Bank Account (“the Account”), account number xxxxxxxxxxx, with the Defendant which was opened circa 1993 with the then Midland Bank (now HSBC Bank plc). 2. During the period from xxxxxxxxx to xxxxxxxx the Defendant debited thirty-nine separate charges to the Account in respect of purported breaches of contract on the part of the Claimant and also charged interest on the charges once applied. 3. A list of the charges applied (further evidenced on the enclosed prints of the relevant monthly bank statements taken from the online banking services that are available on the Defendants website; Home: personal, business, online, internet, banking: HSBC Bank UK) is attached to these particulars of claim. 4. The Claimant submits that the charges levied to the Account, as set out in the enclosed schedule, are, notwithstanding the defence of the defendant, penalty charges arising from and relating directly to breaches of contract, both explicit and implied, on the part of the claimant. As a contractual penalty, the charges are unenforceable by virtue of the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999, the Unfair Contracts (Terms) Act 1977, and the common law. 5. It is admitted that the Defendants charges were levied in accordance with the terms and conditions of the Account. However, it is submitted that the Defendants charges are not related to or intended to represent any actual loss arising from a breach of contract, but instead unduly enrich the Defendant which, by virtue of the legislation cited in paragraph 10 below, exercises the contractual term in respect of such charges with a view to profit. 6. The Defendant avers that the charges levied are legitimate fixed price contractual services, unrelated to breaches of contract, which are therefore not required to be a pre-estimate of loss incurred on the part of the defendant. The Claimant further submits that this contention is merely an attempt to ‘cloak’, or disguise, their penalties in order to circumvent the common law and statutory prohibition of default penalty charges with view to a profit. 7. The Claimant believes the definition of a 'service' to be a provision of knowledge, skill or other transferable facility that benefits the consumer, and one that the consumer agrees is at a reasonable market rate commensurable with the service provided. The Claimant believes it to be inconceivable that the charges levied to her account by the defendant could be any form of ‘service’, rather than a penalty. 8. I understand the definition of 'breach of contract' to be the failure of a party, without legal excuse, to perform a contractually agreed obligation pursuant to any or all of the terms agreed within that contract. I have an overdraft with the defendant. This overdraft has a contractually agreed limit, which is an express term of the bank account contract between myself and the Defendant. When I exceeded this agreed overdraft limit, therefore breaching an express term of the contract between myself and the Defendant, I was consequentially penalised for each such breach by way of charges ranging from £10 to £100 (as stated on the enclosed schedule of charges). 9. In the case of Dunlop Pneumatic Tyre Co v New Garage & Motor Co [1915] AC 79, Lord Dunedin stated that a clause is a penalty if it provides for; "The essence of a penalty is a payment of money stipulated as in-terrorem of the offending part;” I.e. if it is designed to scare or coerce or is used as a threat. It is submitted that the charges applied are not representative of any 'service' provided by the Defendant, but instead are punitive, and held "in-terrorem". 10. The Claimant believes that she was in breach of the terms and conditions that applied to the Account and would like to draw specific attention to clause 7.3 of the Midland Bank Terms and Conditions 1996, superseded by clause 7.4 of the HSBC Personal Banking Terms and Conditions 2004 (and earlier versions), which respectively state:- 7.3 You must not go over any overdraft limit that is agreed with us unless you get our agreement first. 7.4 You should always stay within an agreed overdraft limit unless you get our agreement to increase this first. The Claimant believes that, by exceeding her agreed overdraft limit without prior agreement with the Defendant, she has effectively breached the terms of her contract and, therefore, the charges applied by the Defendant are penalties associated to these breaches. The Claimant can confirm that these clauses were replaced (or reworded) effective from 1 December 2006; after the period to which this claim relates. 11. Further, The Claimant would like to draw attention to clause 7.9 of the Midland Bank Terms and Conditions 1996, superseded by clause 7.13 of the HSBC Personal Banking Terms and Conditions 2004 (and earlier versions), which respectively state:- 7.9 As well as charging interest for unauthorised overdrafts, we may also charge a fee to cover the cost of the administration involved (see the relevant price list). 7.13 As well as charging interest under clause 7.10, we may also charge our applicable fee for reviewing overdrafts not agreed in advance on each occasion that your Bank Account goes overdrawn, or further overdrawn, without an agreed overdraft. We may also charge this fee when your Bank Account goes over, or further over, any agreed overdraft limit. This fee is to cover our management and administration costs (see the relevant price list for details of the fee). The Claimant can confirm that these clauses were replaced (or reworded)effective from 1 December 2006; after the period to which this claim relates; specifically that the description of the fee was changed to exclude any reference to a fee to cover management and administration costs. The Claimant contends, therefore, that the “cost of administration”, and thereafter “management and administration costs” which the Defendant has applied to the account must be proportionate to the actual costs incurred as a result of the claimant’s breaches. The Claimant disputes that charges ranging from £10 to £100 are excessive in the extreme and cannot, in any way, represent the actual costs incurred for what is, effectively, an automated operation. The Claimant has made several attempts to clarify the actual costs incurred by the Defendant as a result of the breaches but has received no response. Paragraph 23 below contains an impartial view on this issue which states that the maximum conceivable costs that could be incurred by a direct debit refusal or overdraft excess is £2.50 12. The Claimant refers to the statement from the Office of Fair Trading (April 2006), who conducted a thorough investigation into default charges levied by the British financial industry. While the report primarily focused on Credit card issuers, the OFT stated that the principle of their findings would also apply to Bank account charges. They ruled that default charges at the current level were unfair within their interpretation of the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999. With regard to the ‘cloaking’ or disguising of penalties, the OFT said this; “4.21 The analysis in this statement is in terms of explicit, transparent default fees. Attempts to restructure accounts in order to present events of default spuriously as additional services for which a charge may be made should be viewed as disguised penalties and equally open to challenge where grounds of unfairness exist. (For example, a charge for ‘agreeing’ or ‘allowing’ a customer to exceed a credit limit is no different from a customers default in exceeding a credit limit.) The UTCCR’s are concerned with the intentions and effects of terms, not just their mechanism”. 13. As submitted above, the Claimant believes the charges levied to the Account to be disproportionate contractual penalties, arising from clear and demonstrable breaches of express terms of the account contract between itself and the Defendant. The Claimant vehemently refutes the Defences contention that they are legitimate contractual service charges. 14. However, and without prejudice to the above, in the event the charges were accepted by this honourable court as being a fee for a contractual service, the claimant submits that they are unreasonable under section 15 of the Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982. 15. Further, under the UTCCR: "5. - (1) A contractual term which has not been individually negotiated shall be regarded as unfair if, contrary to the requirement of good faith, it causes a significant imbalance in the parties' rights and obligations arising under the contract, to the detriment of the consumer. (2) A term shall always be regarded as not having been individually negotiated where it has been drafted in advance and the consumer has therefore not been able to influence the substance of the term. (3) Notwithstanding that a specific term or certain aspects of it in a contract has been individually negotiated, these Regulations shall apply to the rest of a contract if an overall assessment of it indicates that it is a pre-formulated standard contract. (4) It shall be for any seller or supplier who claims that a term was individually negotiated to show that it was." Schedule 2 also includes such clauses (to define examples of unfair clauses) as: "(i) irrevocably binding the consumer to terms with which he had no real opportunity of becoming acquainted before the conclusion of the contract; (j) enabling the seller or supplier to alter the terms of the contract unilaterally without a valid reason which is specified in the contract; (m) giving the seller or supplier the right to determine whether the goods or services supplied are in conformity with the contract, or giving him the exclusive right to interpret any term of the contract." The defendant is a multi-national corporation. The term regarding charges was inserted unilaterally in contract. The contract was pre and mass produced and I had no opportunity to negotiate the clause, or indeed any of the contract. 16. Following on from the above, the claimant does not accept The Defendants contention that the charges are enforceable as a service charge. It is not disputed that the Defendant is entitled to recover its damages following my breaches of contract, and it is entitled to include a liquidated damages clause. I accept without reservation the banks right to recover its actual losses or a genuine pre-estimate thereof. A penalty however, is unenforceable. 17. The Claimant cites the case of Robinson v Harman [1848] 1 Exch 850 which states that a contractual party cannot profit from a breach and that the charge for a loss suffered from a breach of contract should be the amount necessary to put both parties in the same position before the breach occurred. 18. Lord Dunedin in the case of Dunlop Pneumatic Tyre Co v New Garage & Motor Co [1915] AC 79 set down a number of principles in definition of a penalty clause and how such clause may be ascertained from a liquidated damages clause. One of these principles being - "The sum is a penalty if it is greater than the greatest loss which could have been suffered from the breach" 19. The Claimant will further rely on numerous recorded authorities dating throughout the 20th century up to the most recent case of Murray v Leisureplay [2005] EWCA Civ 963, all of which have upheld and reinforced the principles set down by Lord Dunedin defining contractual penalty clauses and the unenforceability thereof. 20. Further, under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999, schedule 2 (1) includes to define an example of an unfair clause as - "(e) requiring any consumer who fails to fulfil his obligation to pay a disproportionately high sum in compensation;" 20. On numerous occasions, the Claimant has requested that the Defendant justify its charges by providing details of the costs incurred as a result of my contractual breaches. Each time those requests were rebutted or ignored. 21. In a recent study undertaken in Australia, (Nicole Rich, “Unfair fees: a report into penalty fees charged by Australian Banks”) it was estimated that the cost to an Australian Bank of a customers direct debit refusal was estimated to be in the region of 54 cents. By reviewing the charges against the above figure, the study estimated that banks could be charging between 64 to 92 times what it costs them to process a direct debit refusal. The study’s key findings stated that in its opinion the Australian Bank’s cheque and direct debit refusal fees were likely to be penalties at law. 22. The Defendant, or indeed any of the UK banks, has never published any information to support how their charges are calculated, or what their actual costs associated with such breaches are, or what revenue they derive from such charges. 23. For their recent BBC2 documentary “The Money Programme”, the BBC appointed a commission of former senior banking industry figures and business academics to attempt to ascertain the actual costs to the UK banks of processing a customer’s breach of contract. They concluded that the absolute maximum conceivable cost that could be incurred by a direct debit refusal or overdraft excess is £2.50, and of a returned cheque £4.50. They did state however, that the actual cost is likely to be much less than this. The commission also estimated that the UK banks collectively derive as much as £4.5billion in profit a year from their charging regimes. 24. It is submitted that the Defendants charges are applied by an automated and computer driven process, resulting in a computer generated letter. It is therefore impossible to envisage how the Defendant can incur costs of up to £100 by carrying out this completely automated process. 25.22nd May 2006, the House of Commons passed an early day motion which welcomed the OFT's statement that default charges should be proportionate to the actual loss incurred. The house described such default charges as "exorbitant" and "excessive". 26. The Claimant also cites a radio interview in 2004 with Lloyds TSB’s former head of personal banking, Peter McNamara, in which he states bank charges are used to fund free banking for all personal customers as a whole. 27. As set out previously, it is submitted that The Defendant’s charges can not be considered to be a service charge. In arguing that they are, they also effectively admit that their charges make profits. The Defendant seemingly contends that their charges are not subject to any assessment of fairness whatsoever. This implies they can set these fees at whatever level they like without limit or regulation. Similarly, as set out above, the charges cannot be considered to be liquidated damages. They, by The Defendant's own admission, are not a pre-estimate of loss incurred as a result of the breach of contract. The charges are punitive, held “in-terrorem", and unduly and extravagantly enrich the Defendant. As such, they are a contractual penalties and unenforceable at law. I, the Claimant, believe all facts stated to be true. Signed, dated. Documents attached in support of this statement Schedule of Charges (prints of the relevant monthly bank statements taken from the online banking services that are available on the Defendants website; www.hsbc.co.uk). Copies of all correspondence with the Defendant (and their representatives) in relation to this claim. Bank Account Terms and Conditions for 1996, 2004 and 2006. Relevant case law summaries. Office of Fair Trading report, April 2006. House of commons early day motion, May 2006. BBC commission conclusion - BBC NEWS | Business | The Money Programme bank commission Australian Default charges report, Nicole Rich - Domain Names, Web Hosting, Web Design, Search Engine Optimisation, and Search Engine Marketing at Melbourne IT

May i be the first to extend congratulations to you! Very well done. I am, hopefully, reaching the stage where an offer will be forthcoming shortly. Can I ask whether the offer come out of the blue or was there a deadline of some kind approaching (i.e. court hearing or other date by which papers had to be submitted to court?)? Also had you been 'nudging' DG Solicitors for a resolution to the matter?

Just established that the MSE website is going down shortly for a revamp, so quickly copied a few of the important posts. Starts with this:- I posted a mesage a couple of minutes ago aking for help and then the potman came with this letter and i have no idea what to do now. the letter says: Upon the courts own motion, The court has made this order of its own initiative without a hearing. If you object to the order, you mut make an application to have it set aside, varied or stayed within 7 days of recieving it. IT IS ORDERED THAT Thi matter be listed on 4th July 2007 at 3.00pm to conider striking out the claim as disclosing no reasonable prospect of success in the light of the recent deciion on Berwick v Lloyds TSB 15th May 2007 Dated 30th May What doe this mean, whats happening, up to now i have followed everything from this site and i filled in the MCOL form uing statements from thi sie. Help i am so worried now that its jut going to be thrown out and im back to square one. Have i done something wrong? I am taking Lyods TSB for 2947 pound. PLEASE HELP Then amongst the subsequent posts is this from Martin Lewis:- Specific answer to the penniless case. This is quite a significant letter - I could churlishly suggest that the judge has seen Berwick but not actually read the judgement carefully. Unfortunately I think you may be one of those people at a significant junction in the whole thing. There are a few things we could do with knowing. 1. Is this at the judges own discretion or is it at the behest of the bank's solicitors. The main way to do that is to call the clerk of the court and ask. This really needs to be you or your legal representative. If you could call up and politely ask the clerk " Did the bank's solicitors ask for the judgement to be made or is it purely the judges decision - has there been any correspondence to the solicitors of the bank or would you send any copy to me." It's also worth finding out if this happened to you or other cases are listed in a similar way on Tuesday. You could ask the clerk that. 2. What you need to do. There are two options a You need to appear in court on Tuesday properly prepared to argue the legality of this with the terms and conditions (the Consumeractiongroup.co.uk are putting together a pack on this). b. You need to ask for more time to prepare as this is a substantial point of law. I am going to ask a solicitor friend to draft a wee 'more time to prepare note for you' in case you decide that option - which you can then send to the court - though as always there is no guarantee it will work (and no legal responsbility taken from it, it's just a suggested form of words). In terms of a defence I am writing to other people involved in the fighting fund to see what the view is on whether this is something we can help provide a solicitor for and whether it is a good juncture to do that to stem the flow. I am sorry I can't give you anything more concrete - and I can't make any promises whatsoever (alays plan for the worst and hope for the best), but your case seems to have gone to the Court at an 'interesting' time. Martin And then shortly thereafter this:- OK Dave and Penniless I've been doing some more on this (would have to come at the same night as the site being made over! ). Anyway. This looks like a potential watershed moment. Would you both please PM me your phone numbers and email addresses - we are trying to get a QC to take a look (again no promises I can't guarantee how quickly I can move on it - but will do our best). Martin

An interesting, if not downright worrying, development!! Read here:- Hull County Court considers striking out the claim in light of Berwick-v- Lloyds - MoneySavingExpert.com Forums and here:- http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/welcome-our-forum/94401-berwick-lloyds-15-may.html

Thoughts have now turned to my next nudge letter (the 3rd). I'm thinking of sending it by email direct to Kate Eaves, but will probably follow it up by a hard copy as well. I'm also considering a slight change of tack in terms of an acceptable settlement. What I intend to propose is for them to offset the outstanding overdraft (which is virtually maxed up) against my full claim amount. Essentially it adds up to the same sum, but I'm hoping that it may be a bit more palatable to them and help things to move along a little faster. Plus I also figure that it demonstrates to the District Judge that I've tried to be flexible in terms of resolving the matter without his intervention. Thoughts??? Dear Kate, Claim No xxxxx etc I refer to my previous letters of xx and xx May. Whilst I appreciate that you are likely to be inundated with claims similar to mine, I am, nonetheless, disappointed that you have not even acknowledged receipt of my correspondence. I have now compiled the original paperwork in terms of the evidence that I intend to rely on, as ordered by District Judge xxxxxxx. This evidence includes, but is not limited to, copies of all correspondence with both yourself and your client in respect of this claim, a statement of evidence, copies of relevant bank statements, plus copies of your clients earlier Terms & Conditions as applied to my account. The 2 copies that I am required to provide (1 to you and 1 to the court itself) amounts to a considerable amount of preparation time and personal expense. This in addition to the extensive time that I have already spent in what has, thus far, been a virtual one way communication exercise on my part with both yourselves and, before that, your client. If it is not your sincere intention to proceed to court to defend this claim then I hope that you will give some genuine consideration to my previous proposal to settle this matter forthwith. Although my previous proposal for an immediate settlement to this matter still stands, you may wish to put the following proposal to your client by way of an alternative means of settling this matter. My account with your client currently carries an agreed overdraft limit of £xxxx. That being the case I would be prepared to settle this matter with your client by way of a payment of £xxxxx and the clearance of the aforementioned overdraft; effectively my account to be placed in credit to the sum of £xxxxx plus the difference between my existing balance and my maximum overdraft limit.