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Tiffla

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  1. Hi, Latty. Just wondering if you can give me a bit of help as i don't seem to be getting much response on my own thread....... I need to get my court bundle in by this friday and i've posted my statement of evidence in my thread to see if it looks okay to everyone. I'm struggling with FD's T&C's side of things and wondered if i could use HSBC's T&C's as they do after all "own" FD. Is that possible? So far, my documents are: 1) Statement of evidence (although this might need tweeking) 2) Letters from claimant 3) Letters from defendant 4) Bank statements 5) Schedule of charges 6) Relevant case law to penalty charges 7) Early day motion 8) Dunlop v New Garage 9) UTCCR's 1999 10) UTCA 1977 11) SOGA 1982 12) OFT summary on credit card default charges I'm just printing off the McNamara transcripted interview, so that'll be in my bundle too. So, apart from the T&C's issue, i think i've got everything in order - does it look okay to you? Your help would be profoundly welcomed as the panic and stress side of things are starting to kick in on me. I just want to make sure i've got things right and in order as i know this is probably the last chance i'll get. Thanks:)
  2. Can anyone have a read of this statement of evidence and let me know if it's okay or if i've missed anything. My bundle has to be in on Friday and i just want to make sure i've got it all right;) 1. The Claimant has the account xxxxxxxx ("the Account") with the Defendant which was opened in 1996. 2. During the period in which the Account has been operating the Defendant debited numerous charges to the Account in respect of purported breaches of contract on the part of the Claimant and also charged interest on the charges once applied. 3. A list of the charges applied is attached to these particulars of claim. 4. The Claimant submits that the charges levied to his bank account, as set out in the attached schedule, are, notwithstanding the contention of the Defendant, penalty charges arising from and relating directly to breaches of contract on the part of the Claimant. As a contractual penalty, the charges are unenforceable by virtue of the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999, the Unfair Contracts (Terms) Act 1977, and the common law. 5. It is admitted that the Defendant’s charges were levied in accordance with the terms and conditions of the account in question. However, it is submitted that the Defendant’s charges are not related to or intended to represent any actual loss arising from a breach of contract, but instead unduly enrich the Defendant which, by virtue of the legislation cited in paragraph 4 above, exercises the contractual term in respect of such charges with a view to profit. 6. The Defendant avers that the charges levied are legitimate fixed price contractual services, unrelated to breaches of contract, which are therefore not required to be a pre-estimate of loss incurred on the part of the defendant. The Claimant further submits that this contention is merely an attempt to ‘cloak’, or disguise, their penalties in order to circumvent the common law and statutory prohibition of default penalty charges with view to a profit. 7. The Claimant believes the definition of a 'service' to be a provision of knowledge, skill or other transferable facility that benefits the consumer, and one that the consumer agrees is at a reasonable market rate commensurable with the service provided. The Claimant believes it to be inconceivable that the charges levied to his account by the defendant could be any form of ‘service’, rather than a penalty. 8. I understand the definition of 'breach of contract' to be the failure of a party, without legal excuse, to perform a contractually agreed obligation pursuant to any or all of the terms agreed within that contract. I have an overdraft facility with the defendant. This overdraft facility has a contractually agreed limit, which is an express term of the bank account contract between myself and the Defendant. When I exceeded the agreed overdraft limit, therefore breaching an express term of the contract between myself and the Defendant, I was consequentially penalised for each such breach by way of a charge of £10 - £129. 9. In the case of Dunlop Pneumatic Tyre Co v New Garage & Motor Co [1915] AC 79, Lord Dunedin stated that a clause is a penalty if it provides for; "The essence of a penalty is a payment of money stipulated as in-terrorem of the offending part;” I.e. if it is designed to scare or coerce or is used as a threat. It is submitted that the charges applied are not representative of any 'service' provided by the Defendant, but instead are punitive, and held "in-terrorem". 10. The Claimant further submits that the Defendant’s contention that the charges are now a legitimate service charge represents a contradiction to materials published by the bank previously. 11. Additionally, the Claimant believes there to be a high possibility that the terms and conditions of his account contract explicitly describe the charges as to be levied in instances of breaching those terms. This is true of the contracts of other customers of the defendant that the claimant is aware. 12. The Claimant refers to the statement from the Office of Fair Trading (April 2006), who conducted a thorough investigation into default charges levied by the British financial industry. While the report primarily focused on Credit card issuers, the OFT stated that the principle of their findings would also apply to Bank account charges. They ruled that default charges at the current level were unfair within their interpretation of the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999. With regard to the ‘cloaking’ or disguising of penalties, the OFT said this; “4.21 The analysis in this statement is in terms of explicit, transparent default fees. Attempts to restructure accounts in order to present events of default spuriously as additional services for which a charge may be made should be viewed as disguised penalties and equally open to challenge where grounds of unfairness exist. (For example, a charge for ‘agreeing’ or ‘allowing’ a customer to exceed a credit limit is no different from a customers default in exceeding a credit limit.) The UTCCR’s are concerned with the intentions and effects of terms, not just their mechanism”. 13. As submitted above, the Claimant believes the charges levied to his account to be disproportionate contractual penalties, arising from clear and demonstrable breaches of express terms of the account contract between itself and the Defendant. The Claimant vehemently refutes the Defence’s contention that they are legitimate contractual service charges. 14. However, and without prejudice to the above, in the event the charges were accepted by this honourable court as being a fee for a contractual service, the claimant submits that they are unreasonable under section 15 of the Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982. 15. Further, under the UTCCR: "5. - (1) A contractual term which has not been individually negotiated shall be regarded as unfair if, contrary to the requirement of good faith, it causes a significant imbalance in the parties' rights and obligations arising under the contract, to the detriment of the consumer. (2) A term shall always be regarded as not having been individually negotiated where it has been drafted in advance and the consumer has therefore not been able to influence the substance of the term. (3) Notwithstanding that a specific term or certain aspects of it in a contract has been individually negotiated, these Regulations shall apply to the rest of a contract if an overall assessment of it indicates that it is a pre-formulated standard contract. (4) It shall be for any seller or supplier who claims that a term was individually negotiated to show that it was." Schedule 2 also includes such clauses (to define examples of unfair clauses) as: "(i) irrevocably binding the consumer to terms with which he had no real opportunity of becoming acquainted before the conclusion of the contract; (j) enabling the seller or supplier to alter the terms of the contract unilaterally without a valid reason which is specified in the contract; (m) giving the seller or supplier the right to determine whether the goods or services supplied are in conformity with the contract, or giving him the exclusive right to interpret any term of the contract." The Defendant is a multi-national corporation. The term regarding charges was inserted unilaterally in contract. The contract was pre and mass-produced and I had no opportunity to negotiate the clause, or indeed any of the contract. The cost of First Direct's charges have increased on more than one occasion during the period in which my account has been held, at no time was I given the opportunity to negotiate, or even notified of these increases. This means the bank has unilaterally altered the terms of my account contract to my detriment, and to their advantage. 16. Following on from the above, the Claimant does not accept The Defendant’s contention that the charges are enforceable as a service charge. It is not disputed that the Defendant is entitled to recover its damages following my breaches of contract, and it is entitled to include a liquidated damages clause. I accept without reservation the bank’s right to recover its actual losses or a genuine pre-estimate thereof. A penalty however, is unenforceable. 17. The Claimant cites the case of Robinson v Harman [1848] 1 Exch 850 which states that a contractual party cannot profit from a breach and that the charge for a loss suffered from a breach of contract should be the amount necessary to put both parties in the same position before the breach occurred. 18. Lord Dunedin in the case of Dunlop Pneumatic Tyre Co v New Garage & Motor Co [1915] AC 79 set down a number of principles in definition of a penalty clause and how such clause may be ascertained from a liquidated damages clause. One of these principles being - "The sum is a penalty if it is greater than the greatest loss which could have been suffered from the breach" 19. The Claimant will further rely on numerous recorded authorities dating throughout the 20th Century up to the most recent case of Murray v Leisureplay [2005] EWCA Civ 963, all of which have upheld and reinforced the principles set down by Lord Dunedin defining contractual penalty clauses and the unenforceability thereof. 20. Further, under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999, schedule 2 (1) includes to define an example of an unfair clause as - "(e) requiring any consumer who fails to fulfil his obligation to pay a disproportionately high sum in compensation;" 21. In a recent study undertaken in Australia, (Nicole Rich, “Unfair fees: a report into penalty fees charged by Australian Banks”) it was estimated that the cost to an Australian Bank of a customers direct debit refusal was estimated to be in the region of 54 cents. By reviewing the charges against the above figure, the study estimated that banks could be charging between 64 to 92 times what it costs them to process a direct debit refusal. The study’s key findings stated that in its opinion the Australian Bank’s cheque and direct debit refusal fees were likely to be penalties at law. 22. The Defendant, or indeed any of the UK banks, has never published any information to support how their charges are calculated, or what their actual costs associated with such breaches are, or what revenue they derive from such charges. 23. For their recent BBC2 documentary “The Money Programme”, the BBC appointed a commission of former senior banking industry figures and business academics to attempt to ascertain the actual costs to the UK banks of processing a customer’s breach of contract. They concluded that the absolute maximum conceivable cost that could be incurred by a direct debit refusal or overdraft excess is £2.50, and of a returned cheque £4.50. They did state however, that the actual cost is likely to be much less than this. The commission also estimated that the UK banks collectively derive as much as £4.5billion in profit a year from their charging regimes. 24. It is submitted that the Defendant’s charges are applied by an automated and computer driven process. This process consists of a computer system ‘bouncing’ the direct debit, and sending out a computer generated letter. It is therefore impossible to envisage how the Defendant can incur costs of £37.50 by carrying out this completely automated process. 25. On 22nd May 2006, the House of Commons passed an early day motion which welcomed the OFT's statement that default charges should be proportionate to the actual loss incurred. The house described such default charges as "exorbitant" and "excessive". 26. As set out previously, it is submitted that The Defendant’s charges can not be considered to be a service charge. In arguing that they are, they also effectively admit that their charges make profits. The Defendant seemingly contends that their charges are not subject to any assessment of fairness whatsoever. This implies they can set these fees at whatever level they like without limit or regulation. Similarly, as set out above, the charges cannot be considered to be liquidated damages. They, by The Defendant's own admission, are not a pre-estimate of loss incurred as a result of the breach of contract. The charges are punitive, held “in-terrorem", and unduly and extravagantly enrich the Defendant. As such, they are a contractual penalties and unenforceable at law. I, the Claimant, believe all facts stated to be true. signed….
  3. Okay, Peeps. I know this might sound a bit dumb, but..... Because FD are part of HSBC, is it okay to use HSBC's T&C's in my court bundle? Like i say - just having a bit of a bad hair day!!
  4. Hi, Bracknell. Have a look at this link to Bankfodders’ letter. http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bank-templates-library/671-2-letter-preliminary-approach.html Hope this helps a little. Good luck:)
  5. Hi, Mohamed. Have you received an Allocation Questionnaire or has it been dispensed with in your case? Your date for the 27th – is it the actual date or is it a prelim hearing? I would be extremely interested in a copy of the T&C’s for 1996, the best way to get them posted on this site would be to scan them and then post them. If you don’t have access to a scanner though, this might be a problem. If scanning is not an option, then I would be very grateful of copies (or the originals and I will copy them and return), as I have to submit my court bundle by next Friday. Naturally all costs to you will be met by myself. If you’re interested in helping, just leave a reply here and I can PM or e-mail you with the details. Have a look at this link http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/guidance-notes/ there’s plenty for you to read up and study. Best of luck with your claim, please keep us all informed of your progress. All the best!!!
  6. Hi, everyone - it's been a while!! I've been a bit busy with work commitments just lately but i'm now getting back on track with all the posts over the last several weeks. I have until Friday 22nd (latest) to get my court bundle together and get it off to the court and DG. I've been searching for FD's terms and conditions, but the earliest one i can find is from 2003 - i opened my account in 1996!! Does anyone know where i can find an earlier copy or can anyone tell me if the T&C's didn't really change much between 1996 and 2003? Bit of a tough one i know - but i'm thinking without a copy of the T&C's - i'll be pretty much stuffed:( Any help would be greatly apreciated!!
  7. Hang in there Dubliner. I've been away for a while but am now catching up on all the posts. I've got until the 22nd of this month to submit by bundle to the court and DG, so i really need to do lots of reading and buy a new ink cartridge!!
  8. Well done beardtache, bet you're glad you didn't accept their first offer!! Spend it wisely.
  9. Keep at it JB, now is when the fun starts:)
  10. Hi, all. I too have had the AQ dispensed with and there was no mention of paying the £100 fee. But i did get worried when i read that the fee is still payable even if the AQ has been dispensed with. I called my local court (Walsall) and a lady there confirmed that if the AQ had been dispensed with, then no fee is payable. Hope this helps anyone:)
  11. Hi, Forger. My case was transferred to my local court, and indeed the AQ was dispensed with. All I got was a notice saying it had been allocated to the small claims track and a court date set. It seems to be a new way forward by the courts as the banks are just taking the pi$$ out of the system. Keep us all posted.
  12. Hi, all. My O/H has just received a letter from HSBC with an offer after she sent her LBA. The letter says though, that some of her charges are outside the 6 year time slot. The SAR was sent on 10th of January, the prelim letter was sent 2nd of March and the LBA was sent on the 20th of March. We've dragged our heels a bit just lately with filing at MCOL, but my question is - when does the 6 year clock start from?? SAR, prelim or LBA?? Would really appreciate some help.
  13. Another way is to change the date on your PC. Just double click on the time (bottom right hand corner of screen) and alter the date to when you first calculated the interes. Don't forget to change it back though;)
  14. Hi, Talking Heads. My AQ was dispensed with and my court date is July 6th!! I've a feeling they may go all the way with me, just my luck it will ll go pear shaped - but at least i gave it a go. Best of luck, keep us all posted:)
  15. Hi, Zac Just stick to your timetables - when the time is up, the time is up - simple as that. Would FD give you an extra few days before taking action? That's right......... So, GO FOR IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  16. Hi, Peeps. Received paperwork from my local court this morning:D . The judge has ordered that by 4pm on 3rd of May i have to file and serve a further statement of case a) setting out details of the "charges and interest" which are to subject of the claim, namely the amount of each item debited to the Claimant's account and the date of each debit and b) clarify the date(s) from which interest is claimed and the date to which it is calculated. That bit seems pretty straight forward, i guess this is because i completely forgot to send a copy of my schedule of charges to the court after i filed at MCOL:( . The claim has been allocated to the small claims track without the need for me to fill in the AQ (it was dispensed with). So, I'd better get my backside into gear and get my schedule of charges sent to the court. Will kep you all posted as and when things happen, but i think it will be very quiet for a while.
  17. SIX weeks.....????? Who am i trying to kidd??? More like ELEVEN weeks!!!!
  18. Hi, Guys and Gals. Still not heard anything from the court as of this morning so i decided to give them a quick call as GMMM suggested. A very nice lady told me that paperwork had been sent out to me yesterday so i should receive it within a couple of days. She also said that a hearing had been set for 6th July:D . Not sure of what type of hearing it will be until i receive the paperwork from the court, so i guess it's going to be another six weeks of waiting:( . Will keep you all posted when i receive my paperwork from the court.
  19. Hi, Peeps - quick update.... Just returned from my holidays and the first thing i did was to check my mail. Not a sausage from the courts!! I've read the link Givememymoney advised, and it seems i might be going down that route of the AQ being dispensed with. I'll send the letter off to DG early next week and see what happens from there. In the meantime, i guess i'll just have to wait for the court date to arrive - although it has been over two weeks now since my case was transfered to my local court.
  20. Hi, Fuming. No need to let FD know, the courts will do that now. You've already given them plenty of chances to settle for the full amount. Still waiting for my AQ to arrive, it's been a week now:( Keep us all posted. Best of luck.
  21. Talk about last minute!!! This morning i've received my notice of transfer to my local court and a copy of FD's defence. The usual blah, blah, blah about they are entitled to make chages under the T&C's and UTCCR's not being applicable. Haven't received my AQ, so i guess that'll drop through the door next week some time. Will keep you all posted as and when things happen.
  22. Tiffla

    HSBC Direct

    Maybe Tinhat has just added up all his charges, but passed put as he was posting:eek:
  23. Just a quick update..... Nothing in the post this morning regarding DG's defence:( . Their 28 days is up on Monday and i haven't heard a dickie bird. MCOL says i'm unable to take any further action on line and will be contacted shortly regarding which court the claim has been transfered to. So, does this mean that DG have entered their defence? I was quite looking forward to hitting the judgement button:( .
  24. Well done, Cookie. Excellent result:)
  25. Hi, Fuming. Your choice at the end of the day. Personally, i'd accept their offer on the understanding that you'll take them to court for the remainder. £500 is £500, but i guess it depends on how desperate you are for the money. Keep us all posted!!
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