Leaving the kids (http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/natwest-bank/55856-son-steven4064-natwest.html and http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/natwest-bank/86848-daughter-steven4064-natwest.html) temporarily I discovered that NatWest put some charges on my business account when I first started in business on my own in 2002 and cash flow was a bit tight.

What is particularly irksome is that one of the charges was for unarranged borrowing. My overdraft peaked at around £1016 that month but my overdraft limit was £3000. They shouldn't have charged me that even by their rules!

It's not much but it's mine. I have all the statements so it's off with a preliminary letter including contractual interest.

Steven

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Steven. Amount is not important. Its your money taken unlawfully from your account, and you have a legal right to claim it back. End of !!!!!!!!

Thanks Alan

I'm going for style as well on this one!

BTW I have the T&Cs from the beginning of the account too.

Steven

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I'm going for style as well on this one!

As always my friend!

Best of luck steven xx

Hi steven

they will bounce cheques if u haven't got cleared funds

ie your account shows £1000 overdrawn but you have to wait 5 working days for your credits to your account to clear

scott

Hi Scott

I didn't make payments for £2000 though - I had more than enough cleared funds for the payments I made as I was well within my agreed overdarft limit

Steven

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Hi Scott

 

I didn't make payments for £2000 though - I had more than enough cleared funds for the payments I made as I was well within my agreed overdarft limit

 

Steven

 

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Know the feeling i would have £20k showing in credit (no overdraft facility) and they would bounce cheques as uncleares funds

Scott

I have created a simple web site here for the various Nat West T&Cs I have. I have also put a file detailing why the charges are penalties which can be used in a statement of evidence.

Steven

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I want to be very clear in this claim about what the issues are and, as I said, I'm going for style. So here goes. This is my proposed preliminary letter.

Request for repayment of charges

 

Dear Sir/Madam,

 

ACCOUNT NUMBER: xxxxxx SORT CODE xxxxx

 

I have recently come to understand that the regime of fees which you have been applying to my account in relation to direct debit refusals, exceeding overdraft limits and so forth are contrary to the Common Law on penalties and liquidated damages in contracts, since I have reason to believe the charges exceed your losses consequential on these breaches of contract.

 

If you disagree that direct debit refusals, exceeding overdraft limits and so forth are breaches of contract, please justify this assertion. If you disagree that these charges exceed your losses, then will you please demonstrate this by letting me have a full breakdown of the costs which you have incurred as a result of my breaches of contract.

 

Further, I consider that the imbalance in your favour in applying compounded interest to these penalties (which, due to their unlawfulness, constitute borrowing of my money without my permission) and no fairness in this being reciprocated in your use of my money, constitutes an unfair term in the contract. Therefore, I am claiming compound interest at Nat West’s unauthorised borrowing rate on these charges.

 

This letter constitutes a formal request for you to repay charges totalling £xxx and listed on the enclosed schedule, plus interest at Nat West’s unauthorised borrowing rate of £xxx, making a total of £xxxx.

 

I expect a positive response within 14 days accepting my request in principle and letting me know a date by which I will receive payment. I believe that this is more than sufficient for a large company such as yours with dedicated staff and large resources.

 

Yours faithfully,

 

Steven4064

Steven

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How can we possibly improve!!! The paragraph explaining why you're applying contractual interest is clever - it's inviting them to try and justify their actions (which we all know won't happen anyway!)

The only thing I wish I'd added into my prelim (with the benefit of hindsight!) is a paragraph that makes it quite clear that this is not a letter of complaint. Nat west seem to be hiding behind the whole 'complaints procedure' with our claims - hence dragging the claims on and not responding to our timescales, resulting in us filing at court even though they pay up in the end anyway! Just a thought, but it's a paragraph that I'll be adding to all of my future prelims in a fruitless attempt to stop them dragging things on further!!

Best of British Steven! xxx

The contractual interest paragraph is no t original but nicked from elsewhere on CAG. Thanks for the 'complaint' idea - I'll try and make that evenb plainer

Steven

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Because of this: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/halifax-bank-bank-scotland/97691-contractual-interest-precedent-lost.html I am going to have to change my approach - which you can see the germs later on in the same thread.

Here is the new approach:

Dear Sir/Madam,

 

ACCOUNT NUMBER: xxxxxx SORT CODE xxxxx

 

I have recently come to realise that the fees which you have been applying to my account in relation to direct debit refusals, exceeding overdraft limits and so forth, substantially exceed your costs in handling these events and amount to unauthorised profit, which is not allowed under common law.

 

This letter constitutes a formal request for you to repay £xxx, which I estimate to be the difference between the charges listed in the attached schedule and your actual costs, plus interest of £xxx based on Nat West’s unauthorised borrowing rate of 29.5% compounded, making a total of £xxxx.

 

This letter is not a complaint and so I do not expect it to be handled using Nat West’s complaints procedures. I expect a positive response within 14 days accepting my request in principle and letting me know a date by which I will receive payment. I believe that this is more than sufficient for a large company such as yours with dedicated staff and large resources.

 

Yours faithfully,

Comments anyone?

Steven

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Steven,

Good letter, and I may even pinch a few bits for a revised LBA on another account I have waiting in the wings. (you've been duly clicked in gratitude) !!

I was about to file my POC using the standard arguments for Ci, but bearing in mind recent events on other thread both subscribed to, now considering modifying my approach too.

Will be intersting to see what (if any) response such letters bring ?

PM

Thanks photoman. On this one, I'm not going to use the unlawful charges for breach of contract at all. I'll keep you posted how it goes.

Steven

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Excellent letter and a wise move given the ruling in the attached thread. Hope you don't mind, but I've poached a couple of paragraphs for my parents claim as well!

Nice one! Hedgey xxx

Feel free hedgey

ps I've PMed you

Steven

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Sent revised prelim letter today ('signed for' of course)

Steven

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Sent revised prelim letter today ('signed for' of course)

In which case put your feet up, have a glass of wine, order a takeaway and wait for ............................. hmmm - nothing!!!! Although you may be lucky on this occasion and at least get a standard BOGOFF!

They had better no send a standard BOGOFF - I used your idea of saying it wasn't a complaint and therefore didn't expect to be put through the standard complaints procedure.

Steven

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Cripes, I'd best keep ma' fingers crossed then!

Hope it works............. I'll be using it on all future claims if it does!!!! xxx

steven4064 et al

Hi! I've been following this thread and the parallel thread (Contractual Interest - Precedent - LOST) with great interest for a week or two now.

My circumstances are very similar to yours in that I'm chasing NatWest for for unlawful bank charges, as well as interest incurred as a result of those charges and contractual interest (compounded) on both.

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general/95909-particulars-claim-when-asking.html

I was arguing for CI on the basis of mutuality and reciprocity which, it would seem, is now doomed to failure. I'd already got as far as submitting my N1 but rather fortuitously, as it happens, it was returned to me as my application for the court fee to be remitted was rejected.

That being the case, I'm now looking to resubmit it but will now be arguing for CI on the basis that it represents an equitable remedy to NatWest having profited from a fiduciary position, contrary to common law.

I ought to say at this point, I'm a journalist with little or no understanding of the law and it has taken me a long, long while to grasp this argument - indeed I would never have done so without all the help and advice you and others have offered on this thread and elsewhere - but I think I'm finally getting there.

Suffice to say, I'm now preparing to resubmit my court claim and am seeking some reassurance as to how best I should fill it in. As regards my 'Brief details of claim', I've removed the paragraph referring to CI on the basis of mutuality and reciprocity and intend to replace it with the following...

The Claimant claims contractual interest (compounded) at a rate of 29.5% per annum from March 2001 to June 2007 as an equitable remedy to the defendant having, contrary to common law, profited from a fiduciary position.

Does that seem okay? And, assuming it is, how much more detail do I need to add to this in my 'Particulars of claim' which I'm hoping to put together tonight?

Thanks in anticipation of your continuing help and co-operation

Fred_Funk

Hi Fred-Funk............ Steven's away on business this week - but I'm sure he'll respond as soon as he gets back.

hedgey06

Thanks for letting me know - I thought he'd been a bit quiet these last few days.

In anycase, you, clearly, know a thing or two about all this; what do you reckon to what I've written above?!

Fred_Funk

Hi Fred

I've juts dropped in between coming back from a business trip and going on holiday tomorrow. I am exploring this way forward at the moment both on CAG and off. My claim is at the LBA stage and I would intend to godown this route when it comes to making a court claim. What that all boils down to is that I have not quite decided on the ddetails yet.

Your brief PoC looks OK and I don't think you need much more in your main PoC. Where it will be necessary to get it really right is in the Statement of Evidence. It could be that you are a couple of weeks ahead of me. If you PM me with your e-mail address I'll forward some stuff I was sent.

Which court are you claiming through BTW.

Also I should point out that I haven't got any legal training either. I have however, sought some legal advice (not come yet though).

Steven

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didn't cankster get a stiff slap from his judge on his arguments for CI?

one of which was that 'a fiduciary position' did not exist

I may be wrong but I think that was part of the judge's argument

ooh, and Steve, can I see that too, I'm waiting for acknowledgement from Natwest any day now

ta much