Jenny,

What happened at the the Leeds Mercantile Hearings in February, April and June 2007? Where the cases had not been settled at the first hearing, I understood that the Judge had kept them in the Mercantile Court on the multi-track for further hearings. Is that not the case? One of the CAG reports on the April hearing stated that one of the banks wanted the case transferring back to the County Court small claims track but the judge was having none of it. I appreciate that you were at the June hearing and have first hand experience of that hearing. I note that your report and other CAG claimant's reports on the 28th June hearing imply that the 'not settled' cases are continuing on the multi-track not the small claims track, which appears to be at variance to what you have said at post 25. Have I misunderstood?

Hi Calculator and Jenny

The courts defence details were as follows

1 the defendant lloyds tsb is a bank whose registered office is 25 gresham street, london, ecv2 7hn. it is admitted that the claimant has been a customer of the bank at all material times.

2 by opening an account with the bank, the customer enters into a commercial arrangement with the bank for the provision of banking services. the bank is entitled, as part of that arrangement, to charge for those services. at account opening a customer is provided with details of the bank's charges, currently in a leaflet of guide to our banking charges. by using the account, the customer acknowledges that the charges are incorporated into the contract. for personal customers, a number of services are provided free, notwithstanding that they are an expense to the bank. such services presently include, but are not limited to providing;

cheques

bank statements

the facility to make payments by direct debit and standing order

debit cards

atms (cash machines)

3 by maintaining the account in credit, or within any limits agreed with the bank, the customer may avoid most if not all charges. if the customer fails to ensure that there are sufficient cleared funds in the account to cover payments, whether by cheque, debit card, standing order or direct debit, the customer makes a request for a payment to be made from the banks funds. if the bank makes payment, or returns the payment, it provides a service as specified in the leaflet and makes a charge in accordance with the trms of the contract. on page 1 of the leaflet, the bank explains that "there are normally no charges for everyday banking at lloyds tsb when your account is in credit.

when you use an agreed overdraft, there is no monthly fee and we only charge interest on the amount you are overdrawn each day. where you go overdrawn without an agreement or where you use special services, such as copy statements, we will make a charge. this guide explains how these charges work, and when they will apply.

if you want to use a service that we haven't listed, we'll tel you the cost of that service before you give us the go-ahead"

4 there is no breach of contract; the charge cannot therefore be a penalty, consuquently there is no requirement that the charge be a pre-estimate of the bank's loss.

5 the customer is given advance warning of charges being imposed; statements show the charges, if any, the customent has incurred during the course of a month, and which will appear as debits on the following month's statement. customers are warned by letter when they go overdrawn or over their agreed limit without arrangement with the bank. if the customer fails to remedy the position, and payments such as standing orders and direct debits are refused then again the customer is warned by letter.

6 the charges are fair and reasonable, and it is denied that they are unlawful.

7 the customer is notified of the charges in plain intelligible language at the conclusion of the contract, and on each monthly statement. the charge are terms which relate to the price payable by the customer for a service provided by the bank, and pursuant to regulation 6 of the nfair terms in consumer contracts regulations 1999, are not subject to the assessment of fairness.

8 in the premises:

8.1 the charges are for banking services, and are not damages nor a penalty;

8.2 the bank is entitled by contract to impose the charges, which are fair and reasonable;

8.3 it is denied that the charges are unlawful or contravene any statute or regulation.

9 the claimants claim is denied in its entirety. it is further denied that the claimant is entitled to the sum claimed or to any sum from the bank.

hope this can help with what answers to put on the cmis as i am struggling as to what is right.

Jenny,

 

What happened at the the Leeds Mercantile Hearings in February, April and June 2007? Where the cases had not been settled at the first hearing, I understood that the Judge had kept them in the Mercantile Court on the multi-track for further hearings. Is that not the case? One of the CAG reports on the April hearing stated that one of the banks wanted the case transferring back to the County Court small claims track but the judge was having none of it. I appreciate that you were at the June hearing and have first hand experience of that hearing. I note that your report and other CAG claimant's reports on the 28th June hearing imply that the 'not settled' cases are continuing on the multi-track not the small claims track, which appears to be at variance to what you have said at post 25. Have I misunderstood?

From what i heard the judge say to a solicitor, is that in mercantile, cases cannot be sent back to fast track, only back to small claims

Hi Calculator and Jenny

 

The courts defence details were as follows

 

1 the defendant lloyds tsb is a bank whose registered office is 25 gresham street, london, ecv2 7hn. it is admitted that the claimant has been a customer of the bank at all material times.

2 by opening an account with the bank, the customer enters into a commercial arrangement with the bank for the provision of banking services. the bank is entitled, as part of that arrangement, to charge for those services. at account opening a customer is provided with details of the bank's charges, currently in a leaflet of guide to our banking charges. by using the account, the customer acknowledges that the charges are incorporated into the contract. for personal customers, a number of services are provided free, notwithstanding that they are an expense to the bank. such services presently include, but are not limited to providing;

cheques

bank statements

the facility to make payments by direct debit and standing order

debit cards

atms (cash machines)

3 by maintaining the account in credit, or within any limits agreed with the bank, the customer may avoid most if not all charges. if the customer fails to ensure that there are sufficient cleared funds in the account to cover payments, whether by cheque, debit card, standing order or direct debit, the customer makes a request for a payment to be made from the banks funds. if the bank makes payment, or returns the payment, it provides a service as specified in the leaflet and makes a charge in accordance with the trms of the contract. on page 1 of the leaflet, the bank explains that "there are normally no charges for everyday banking at lloyds tsb when your account is in credit.

when you use an agreed overdraft, there is no monthly fee and we only charge interest on the amount you are overdrawn each day. where you go overdrawn without an agreement or where you use special services, such as copy statements, we will make a charge. this guide explains how these charges work, and when they will apply.

if you want to use a service that we haven't listed, we'll tel you the cost of that service before you give us the go-ahead"

4 there is no breach of contract; the charge cannot therefore be a penalty, consuquently there is no requirement that the charge be a pre-estimate of the bank's loss.

5 the customer is given advance warning of charges being imposed; statements show the charges, if any, the customent has incurred during the course of a month, and which will appear as debits on the following month's statement. customers are warned by letter when they go overdrawn or over their agreed limit without arrangement with the bank. if the customer fails to remedy the position, and payments such as standing orders and direct debits are refused then again the customer is warned by letter.

6 the charges are fair and reasonable, and it is denied that they are unlawful.

7 the customer is notified of the charges in plain intelligible language at the conclusion of the contract, and on each monthly statement. the charge are terms which relate to the price payable by the customer for a service provided by the bank, and pursuant to regulation 6 of the nfair terms in consumer contracts regulations 1999, are not subject to the assessment of fairness.

8 in the premises:

8.1 the charges are for banking services, and are not damages nor a penalty;

8.2 the bank is entitled by contract to impose the charges, which are fair and reasonable;

8.3 it is denied that the charges are unlawful or contravene any statute or regulation.

9 the claimants claim is denied in its entirety. it is further denied that the claimant is entitled to the sum claimed or to any sum from the bank.

 

hope this can help with what answers to put on the cmis as i am struggling as to what is right.

Hi, try not to worry, it seems like the standard defence there. They are basically saying there charges are for a service not a penalty. With regards to which cmi to use, I am sure it doesnt help that we cant agree on this thread which is best to use, so i dont feel i can decide for you, all i can say is that the 2 i have used have had no repercussions whatsoever

I hope that helps a little?

Jenny

Lozza and Jenny,

There is not much difference between the example CMI sheets at post 8 (Jenny's revised sheet) and mine at post 15. The aim of my example CMI sheet at post 15 was:

1. I showed the questions besides the answers (I think it is a more meaningful document and more 'reader friendly' to show both the questions and answers, not just the answers),

2. I refined the answers to questions 3, 5, 8 and 28 for the reasons stated in earlier posts

3. I gave notes about answering some of the questions.

It is not crucial at the end of the day as to which of the two example CMI sheets is used. As Jenny says, she has used her sheet with no problem. Likewise I have used my sheet with no problem. Anybody using the example sheets should try to understand what the example answers mean and if it is felt that they need amending to suit the individual's particular circumstances, then do so.

(Lozza, having read the defence that you have been given, I do not see that it needs any specific response on the CMI sheet).

Jenny,

You're both a genius and a lifesaver!

Thanks so much. How far along is your case now? I'm due in Leeds Mercantile on 12th Dec for the Case Management Conference.

Hi, Glad it helps!! I was at mercantile on thursday for yet another cmc( my 3rd LOL)..it got stayed, but A&L promised to pay me after the test case. I had judge kaye, but another judge, judge behrens is also staying cases. I think the dec one so close to the test case will be stayed till end jan...sorry!! Unless they drop the test case...which is possible!! i hope it helps

Jenny xx

I have Judge Grenfell, and the court administrator seemed to think they would be pushing on with it.

No idea, I guess I'll just run with it and see what happens!

Good luck, keep us posted on what happens xx