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    • Hello,

      On 15/1/24 booked appointment with Big Motoring World (BMW) to view a mini on 17/1/24 at 8pm at their Enfield dealership.  

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    • Housing Association property flooding. https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/438641-housing-association-property-flooding/&do=findComment&comment=5124299
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    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

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      We will be getting that transcript very soon. We will look at it and we will understand how the judge made such catastrophic mistakes. It was a very poor judgement.
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      This is good ethical practice.

      It would be very nice if the parcel delivery companies – including EVRi – practised this kind of thing as well.

       

      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
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Nell v RBS - deal or no deal?


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Brief History:

 

08-03-07 Letter requesting charges (£5889.00) and interest (£1702.96) be refunded

 

31-03-07 LBA

 

04-05-07 N1 filed for charges (£5889.00), interest (£1776.44) and court fees (£250.00)

 

14-05-07 Offer from RBS totalling £5357.00

 

 

I had not lost my nerve until yesterday's published ruling on the recent "first round" win to banks.

 

On receipt of the above I called to negotiate on the offer made; I was willing to waive interest, but claim court fees and charges back (£6139.00). I was bluntly advised that the offer was non-negotiable, a final offer.

 

What's a girl to do? Stick it out and risk losing everything, or accept their final offer?

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The recent win by Lloyds TSB had nothing to do with the law on unfairness etc, it had everything to do with poor case management and insufficient evidence, and in all likelihood will be overturned at appeal.

 

The best thing to do would be to carry on regardless, it's not likely to affect anything that happens after it.

 

Ultimately it's your call though, but please don't feel that your case is weaker because of the recent judgement, it isn't. The only thing that has changed is that one needs to pay more attention to one's bundle.

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Thanks for responding, Kurt.

 

My main concern is that I do not know the first thing about preparing my "bundle". How does one learn?

 

As a aside, I was privvy to a conversation a bank manager was having in public today with regard to bank charges; he was firmly of the opinion that the tides were turning and that the folk who had received pay-outs already were the lucky ones.

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Can anybody tell me how I begin to prepare my bundle and what it should contain?

 

As Mr Berwick's claim fell at the last hurdle due to an ill-prepared bundle, I don't want to find myself in the same position.

 

Any help much appreciated!

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hi the same thing has happen to me the bank has offered me the charges minus interest and i am due in court. i tthink as i may take it as i feel that it guareeted.

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Hi Nell....

 

I really like your thread - as I am in a very similar position having just filed my N1 and I reckon they are very likely to make me an offer very soon now.

 

I haven't yet got as far as preparing the bundle - which is where I think Mr Berwick slipped up in terms of preparation. If you haven't seen Judge Cooks 16 page conclusion document, then I did post a link to the BBC news article that has a built in link to it (atlantic vs RBS). It does make good reading.

 

I have been scouring around looking for stuff advising on preparation of bundles etc..... and I have a feeling that the bundle pack (something like £10 or £15 advertised through this CAG website) and the book by Judge Patricia Pearl (advertised on left hand side of this CAG page) could be useful. I am going to purchase both for sure and spend serious time reading through them.

 

There's one other piece of worthwhile advice I picked up..... and that is to ask the county court staff to obtain permission from a judge sitting on a case to allow you to silently witness the proceedings. I believe that if agreed you will sit in an adjacent room to the room where the proceedings are taking place and simply listen to what is going on. I know it's not much help in terms of initial bundle preparation - but i'm thinking of doing this as a confidence building measure - so I can be completely sure of whats going on and how to handle myself should things finally come to a court appearance.

 

There is one other thing I picked up from having read the Berwick transcript a couple of times, and I am not sure how "relevant" it would be but..... Judge Cook did mention a few times about Mr Berwick having used the standard templates available from internet sites. He also mentioned that the claim was submitted through the online Moneyclaim website. Lloyds TSB on other hand sought legal advice and submitted a very well researched case. I am thinking that Judge Cooks "thinking" and decision might boil down to him being annoyed by what he might see as almost an "abuse" of legal system whereby people are submitting claims with no obvious evidence of thought, preparation and novelty of evidence/ approach and just doing something that can be done in 10 minutes in front of a home PC. The bundle preparation could be "seen" in same way as the submission of a paper or a very good project/ essay/ report.

 

I'm sorry to write so much - but i'm in same position as you, albeit you're just a couple of weeks ahead of me, and I'm getting nervous too!

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Nell........

 

I don't want to sound arrogant at all...... but having worked in a branch 8 years ago and spent the rest of the time in city (non high street banks) I have found that retail bank branch staff are rarely more than reasonably well read respectable folk in a relatively swish office. Branch staff have a lot of loyalty to their employer (justifiably) but their knowledge of industry, regulation and issues (like bank charges stuff) is limited to what they hear amongst themselves and what they are "told" by the managers, who themselves only know what they know from reading the same sources as us (newspapers etc) and the occasional internal memo. Most branches are lucky if they have one email address for the entire branch!

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I did a quick google search using keywords: "court bundle" and came up with following general advice: http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/docs/protocol-appendix-d.pdf

 

Also try this (CAG) website: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/announcement.php?f=33&a=26

 

...hope these are useful..... and good luck!!!

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Atlantic, you certainly have done your homework! Thanks for the jump start, which is much needed. I will look into your suggested routes and let you know how I fare.

 

Still wavering between fight or flight, I am going to await a response from RBS; they have until 30 May. That said, I fully expect the obligatory Cobbett's response.

 

What I don't understand is this....if so many people are fighting back - with the help of these sites - and it is costing RBS in excess of £8000 to pay for Cobbett's services for each individual case, why have they not learned their lesson and started paying out as soon as the N1 is filed?

 

Self-righteous stupidity?

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Hi Nell,

 

I think the reality is that the banks themselves are in a very difficult position...as for that matter are we (the consumers). If the banks were to either lose in court or just simply pay up as soon as an N1 is filed then with the huge amount of media interest the floodgates would open and where they're losing millions now, that figure would turn into billions.

 

I've got 2 admit.... when I started reading your thread I really found myself empathising with you.... as it's almost a carbon copy of my situation..... and I'm pretty certain some sort of offer is going to be made which will be lower than what I requested in first place: so I reckon I'll be in your position very soon figuring out "fight or flight".

 

...as for doing my homework.... 'tis just a case of 8 years work experience, phd, and most of all this website (CAG). The Consumer Action Group has been a real education: everything is on here, and if not then there's links to it!!

 

Good luck in whatever you do decide.......

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oh......I was following a thread started by "mcuth" (mcuth vs RBS) who was eventually successful. He was given a "realistic" offer, decided to reject it and pursue things through the courts, and then he was given maybe another 3 or 4 subsequent offers verging on really silly amounts until through simply sticking at it (and being absolutely prepared to go to court) they finally caved in a few days short of the court date and settled with him.

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'Tis very tempting to take it and run, especially when you have a family to support. On the flip side, who would throw away £2600 without putting up a fight?

 

I do intend to respond to Cobbett's as/when it falls on the mat. We shall see whether CR increase their final offer then.

 

Wonder what they will offer you??

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......very good question!!!!!! :(

 

the thing that really scares me at the moment is that I just don't know how long everyone (banks, regulators, courts, consumers etc) will put up with this big problem with recovering banks charges. I can't see the banks going on cashing out forever........ At the moment the banks definately don't have a foot to stand on in respect of the Berwick case.

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......very good question!!!!!! :(

 

the thing that really scares me at the moment is that I just don't know how long everyone (banks, regulators, courts, consumers etc) will put up with this big problem with recovering banks charges. I can't see the banks going on cashing out forever........ At the moment the banks definately don't have a foot to stand on in respect of the Berwick case.

 

They will most likely keep paying out whilst the claiming stays at a level which is considerably lower than the profit they are making on the charges.

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Nell - if you do decide to prepare a bundle then this could be really useful for you: http://www.consumeraction.org.au/downloads/DL56.pdf

 

as you're going to need "hard" evidence of bank charges being more tha actual costs ......resulting in them being "penalties" as opposed to being cost recovery.

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To bring you up to speed, RBS had until 30 May to acknowledge/defend N1 claim.

 

Last night I dutifully sat and re-calculated an additional £40 interest in the past 28 days, ready to hand in my request for judgment today.

 

This morning, Cobbetts sent me an Acknowledgement of Service, stating that they "intend to defend all of this claim". This has given them a further 28 days to delay paying out further.

 

Need I do anything in the meantime, or do I sit tight for the time being?

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  • 2 weeks later...

OK - 15 days after they stated they would defend the case in full Cobbetts have sent the Defence.

 

I have scanned the document, as I would like some advice on what I need to do next/whether this is the standard response.

 

Sorry for seeming incompetent, but how do I attach these files??

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hi nell.....

 

nope - your definately not incompetant behind the computer - it's just you really can't upload documents onto this website unless they're a link - so like all of us it's a long slog typing all the letters sent to you out in one of these little "Quick Reply" boxes.....

 

As for a relaibly good indicator about defenses and the wording of them - why not have a look at Mcuth vs RBoS. You'll find his long-ish thread in the settled section of RBS and he's got a lot on this as it really is confusing and the legal terminology makes it seem all the more baffling.....

 

My honest guess is that as long as you do do a serious job at the defense stuff and bundles then at this point now you're probably no more than 4 weeks from a final total payout from Cobbetts which will come in the form of a phone call to you from them offering everything in order to keep you out of the court house....as they really don't like sitting in front of judges!!

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Cheers, Atlantic. Makes me feel better knowing that I'm not as stupid as first thought!

 

To be honest, I didn't expect the document that arrived today. What I expected was the bog-standard delaying tactic i.e. in part 2a the claimant must list what each specific charge relates to... What arrived was just a defence, a statement. And there is no indiciation of what I need to do next.!

 

Do I now await a response from the Court, in view of Cobbetts submission, or am I supposed to submit something else now?

 

Haven't got time, right this minute, but will do my best to type up four-pager on the morrow. Joy.

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i think i know how you feel........... i lost quite a bit of time scouting around trying to figure out an easier way of getting documents up on the threads.....only to find that you simply have a long hard typing task ahead of you!!!

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Ok, this is Cobbett's Defence to my claim:

 

THE ROYAL BANK OF SCOTLAND PLC Defendant

 

1 This Defence is filed and served without prejudice to the Defendant's case that the Particulars of Claim do not disclose reasonable grounds for bringing a claim against the Defendant to recover the bank charges (and interest thereon) referred to in the Particuolars of Claim or any other sum(s). In the event that the claim is not properly particularised then the Defendant will apply to strike out the claim and/or for summary judgement in respect of the same.

 

2 Without prejudice to the foregoing paragraph, if and to the extent that the Claimant proves the allegation that the Defendant debited charges to the Claimant's bank account, insofar as such charges were debited on a date or dates more than six years prior to the issue of this claim, any remedy in respect of the same, whether damages, restitution or otherwise, is barred by the operation of the Limitation Act 1980 and/or the doctrine of laches and the Defendant will apply to strike out this aspect of the claim and/or for summary of judgement.

 

3 On allocation the Defendant invites the court to direct that there be a case management conference in order for the court to consider the making of appropriate orders to give the Claimant the opportunity to properly particularise the claim.

 

4 No admissions are made as to what charges have been debited to the Claimant's bank account.

 

5 In relation to the allegation that the contractual provisions pursuant to which the charges have been applied are unenforceable by virtue of the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977 ("UCTA 1977") and/or the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 ("the Regulations") and/or the common law, the Claimant is required to identify:

 

5.1 (a) the section(s) of The Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977 ("UCTA 1977"); (b) the regulations of The Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 ("the Regulations"); and © the principles of common law relied upon by the Claimant in alleging that the contractual provision(s) referred to are unenforceable; and

 

5.2 the contractual provision(s) that the Claimant allege are invalid by reference to UCTA 1977 and/or the Regulations.

 

Until such a time as these sections/regulations/provisions are identified the Defendant cannot (save as appears below) plead to the allegation referred to in paragraph 5 above. The Defendant therefore reserves its right to plead further to the allegation once (and if) the Claimant identifies the relevant contractual information.

 

6 In relation to the case of the Claimant that the charges must be reasonable within meaning of section 15 of the Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982 ("SGSA") the Defendant pleads as follows:

 

6.1 The Claimant is required to plead and prove the necessary factors (referred to in section 15 SGSA) concerning the contract between the Claimant and the Defendant which mean that pursuant to SGSA section 15 there is an implied term that the Claimant pay a reasonable charge for the service under the contract.

 

6.2 Further, the Claimant is required to plead and prove (a) that the bank charges which have been debited are unreasonable; (b) all facts and matters relied upon by the Claimant in support of this case and © what charges would have been reasonable.

 

6.3 In the circumstances no grounds are disclosed for a claim that the Defendant has acted in breach of SGSA section 15.

 

6.4 In the circumstances (save as appears below) the Defendant is unable to plead to this allegation beyond dening that it has acted in breach of SGSA section 15 as alleged or at all. The Defendant reserves its right to plead further to this allegation once (and if) the defects in the pleaded case referred to in paragraphs 6.1-6.3 above are addressed.

 

6.5 It is the case of the Defendant that the contract between the Claimant and the Defendant does not fall within SGSA section 15 because (a) the consideration for the service would be determined by the contract between the Claimant and the Defendant and (b) was not left to be determined in a manner agreed by the contract or determined by the course of dealings bewteen the Claimant and the Defendant.

 

7 Save as hereinbefore appears the Defendant joins issue with the Claimant on the claim(s) and denies that it is liable to the Claimant as alleged or at all.

 

Statement of Truth (Lynsey Clare Burgoyne)

 

 

 

Ok - WHAT IS MY NEXT STEP???? I HAVE NO CLUE WHERE TO BEGIN!

 

Thank you, in advance, to anybody who can steer me in the right direction.

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I don't think it's as bad as it looks - it's just wrapped up in "legal-speak". If you're in need of inspiration then have a look at Mcuth vs. RBS.

 

For sure you're going to need a copy of RBS's terms and conditions - this is essential as most of their defense and your stuff hinges on breaches of the tems and conditions that govern the account.

 

See what the others say............

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I have no clue when it comes to legal jargon!

 

That said, where I had actually thought they had not asked any questions of me, typing this out I think they want me to respond to paragraphs 6.1 to 6.3; just don't know of that actually is the case and, if so, what I need to say in response?!

 

Can anybody help me out? The clocks a-tickin'....

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I know Mcuth vs. RBS had something similar to this...... so have a good look at his thread, which is in the settled section.

 

If you're going to need evidence of penalty charges then you're welcome to check out the links on my thread, Atlantic vs. RBS, as I was preparing early for bundles and defenses, although I never got around to using any of it since I accepted settlement with them.

 

Good luck - and try not to "get flustered" or "confused" by the legal jargon causing a mental block of sorts - just keep a clear head and wade through it and from what I have seen you should be ok.......

 

oh and do check out other threads and successful threads where people have already been past the stage you're at.........

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Hi Nell

 

I am a few weeks ahead of you with RBS and got pretty much the same defence from Cobbetts. You don't have to respond to any of it, just wait for a response from the court.

 

You might get an allocation questionnaire, if you do then read this thread;

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general/53570-new-strategy-allocation-questionnaires.html

 

Not all courts use the AQ now so you might get an order for directions (something the court wants you to do) OR a court hearing date. Either way, follow what the court says and not Cobbetts.

 

I have submitted my AQ and draft order for directions and am now waiting for a court hearing date. RBS have just offered me full charges but no interest or court costs. I have rejected their offer.

 

Good luck

 

FC

Barclaycard: SETTLED AFTER LBA

Barclays 1: AT COURT

Barclays 2: WITH FOS

Capital One: SETTLED AFTER N1

Egg: SETTLED AFTER LBA

HFC: S.A.R - (Subject Access Request)

Lloyds TSB: S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) - WITH Information Commissioners Office

RBS: AT COURT

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