I bought a leather 3-piece suite in January 2004. It was not delivered until April 2004, and I was living on my own in that house until July 2004, when my wife and kids moved from another part of the country. So it's really had less than 2 years use. I paid nearly £1400!

The 3 seater only has one useable seat, the middle. The others have collapsed and feel like sitting in a bucket in comparison.

someone came to the house last weekend, sat in the two seater, and it looks like that's gone as well now!

I need to write obviously, but I am assuming a simple SOGA approach, i.e. reasonable quality etc not lasting for a reasonable time etc. Any other suggestions?

Thanks,

Martin

Which suite was it? I've got exactly the same problem with a little-used suite I bought from them in June last year.

I am no legal expert but I had a problem with an iron which was two years old. The guarantee of 1 year had expired but I was informed by the consumers Association that under the sales of goods Act a product should be suitable for the purpose it was made for and should last for a ' reasonable' period of time for the purpose for which it was sold. You have six years. However, the reasonable period should be taken into account. With my iron for example it was only used for 3 hours a week for two years, If it had been used in an ironing business 8 hours a day 5 days a week then two years would be reasonable. 3 hours a week not so. Go to the library on the forum and there is a copy of the Sales of Goods Act and the amendment. Its worth a read.

Tefal offered me an out of warranty ' repair ' for £84 - I complained using the above Act they offered me a new iron at cost £80 - half retail price. I said it didn't cost the retail price to them -so I complained again I eventually received a no charge brand new iron plus £50 for the inconvenience caused. If you can prove the kids have not been jumping up and down on the sofa's using them as bouncy castles for 2 years then you can claim for the poor quality. These sofa's are not noted for their quality but should last for a reasonable period of time certainly more than 2 years!

Good post.

The situation with the three-seater is EXACTLY the same as Martin's is (so please keep us informed Martin)

I shouldn't have any problems, I have posted elsewhere about this but it's less than 12 months old and I have no kids. The only thing they might pick up on is the fact that I have 2 large dogs, as a result there are some scratch marks on the lower levels of the furniture naturally and I don't have a problem with that (they're a bit like kids, you learn to live with mangled furniture but the but they don't climb on the furniture at all and the door is locked when we're not in).

I also paid an extra £200 for a five-year warranty, I didn't want it because I knew the Sale of Goods act offered me some cover but the mrs. did want it so that was that. Maybe not a bad thing on hindsight.

Having returned the claim form they sent me, which notably asks if we have any dogs as they will need to be put into another room - yeah right, they ask about dogs so they have something to blame more like and worm their way out of the warranty, I have had no word yet.

The thing is I will be pushing for a full refund because there's no way that if two seats have collapsed already that this suite is gonig to last five years, and I'm not going to go through this process again every nine months until the warranty runs out. Will ring them right now actually to see if they have received the claim form.

It's a bit late now but £200 for an extended warranty on a sofa? I'd have a serious word with your good lady wife on what these warranties actually offer against the Sales of goods act protection and take her out for a few meals of the savings!

Seriously though you should be protected from faulty workmanship. Good luck

Haven't Land of Leather been on BBC Watchdog? Sure they have. Might be worth emailing Watchdog to let them know things still haven't improved. Folks who go on there always seem to end up with the goods they wanted AND a refund.

It's a bit late now but £200 for an extended warranty on a sofa? I'd have a serious word with your good lady wife on what these warranties actually offer against the Sales of goods act protection and take her out for a few meals of the savings!

 

Seriously though you should be protected from faulty workmanship. Good luck

Trading Standards said I was unlikely to get a refund "after this length of time" (about 10 months) but can ask for a refund after two repairs. At this point the £200 extra warranty doesn't look like a bad thing because at least they have to do something about it for 5 years every time I call.

LoL said that "the warehouse manager was off until Monday and he would ring me back then" (he won't of course). At the moment it's at the first stage so regardless who I contact I'm going to have to give them the chance to put things right first but I'm particularly interested in other people like Martin with similar problems, this strengthens my case and that of others too if we can collate information.

On eof the best cases I heard regarding the sale of goods act and 'reasonable length of time' was a bathroom mirror where the silver backing started peeling off after 7 years. The woman involved eventually took a major DIY store to court and the judge decreed that the backing should reasonably be expected to last longer than 7 years and awarded against the store.

I personally once had a similar problem about 7 months after purchase with a sofa from a (now log gone) major furniture retailer and after a lot of messing about (including them having it for over 3 months for repair) I contacted my MP who took the matter up with their chairman ( a personal friend of the MP's wife). Not only was the store manbager dismissed for negligence but I was told to go to the store and choose any suite I wanted as a replacement.

Interesting. LoL actually sent out a private firm to repair my sofa a week or so after my last post back in May - the guy basically put two new pieces of foam into the "seat" part of the sofa.

Just last night my mrs. pointed out that one side of her "seat" had started to collapse again. I haven't had the chance to contact them yet but this isn't good enough. it's all very well saying they will send someone out whenever I have a problem (which means I have to take half a day off work, I'm self employed so that means no wages) but what happens when the guarantee expires? I'm not happy.

The sale of goods act is very clear on things like this. I would contact your MP to get him/her involved as Trading Standards can take forever and possibly your MP can resolve things a lot faster.

Just as a side note. I have great fun when buying electricals like a tv set. When they ask if I want extended warranty I always tell them that if the thing breaks down inside 5 years I will expect an immediate replacement without extended warranties. I know as a result of my job that the design life of a tv set is 5 years without failure. If that's what the manufacturer designs it to achieve then thats what I expect to get. So far this policy has not let me down, even with very cheap items like a coffee filter I bought recently that lasted only 6 months of daily use.

I just found this on another site. I have highlighted the bit in bold.

The law says that if goods are sold they must not be faulty. Unless that fault was brought to your attention at the time you bought the goods, you are entitled to your money back or to exchange the goods for something else.

Under the Sale and Supply of Goods to Consumers Regulations 2002, any fault that arises during the first 6 months will be presumed to have existed at the time of delivery. It is therefore up to the retailer to prove otherwise. Consumers also have a right to request a repair or replacement of the goods, (although the seller can refuse if the cost of doing so would be disproportionate to the cost of any other remedy available to the buyer, or a repair or replacement is impossible). In those circumstances the buyer can ask the seller to reduce the purchase price by an appropriate amount or "rescind" (end) the contract and sue.

Hi Guy's,

Sorry to catch this thread so late but I have been dealing with a few land of leather problems myself of late.

The basic legal reply to your questions on time is:

1. Goods that develop a fault within the first 6 months:

It is deemed that the fault was present at time of delivery so the goods fall into the SOGA category of not as described. You can take a supporting measure from the quality sections to support this. The seller's hold the legal burden of proving that the goods were not faulty at the point of delivery, almost impossible but not always the case. During the first 6 months the consumer can elect the remedial action that they wish to choose, i.e. refund, replacement, repair, in certain instances, and this would depend on how long you have had the item. It is deemed that you should have long enough to inspect the goods, this time line may vary with the specific type of goods that you have but I always advise that if a product is even slightly failing in its first month, report it in writing to the company without delay, as this may form your case for classifying the goods as unaccepted, should the fault develop into a major problem. Deeming goods as unaccepted retains your right to request a full refund or recession of the contract past the 6 month watershed.

2. Goods that fail after the 6 months are deemed to be not of satisfactory quality under SOGA. There is no burden of proof required here other than that the fault exists, of course, this is on the part of the consumer.

3. The fictitious 12 month rule

Most people believe that a 12 month warranty is the long stop for repair or replacement. Legally this is not always correct.

Firstly, the 12 month warranty is a measure given, by the manufacturer, to the retailer, in order that costs for failure may be controlled at the retail end. Almost, a supporting gift to enhance the product offering in their business relationship. When you buy the product capacity to that warranty contract is passed to you the consumer, however, the retailer, with whom you have a contract is responsible to you anyway and you do not always need to accept that things needs to be administered under that contract. Remembering at this point that your purchase of the goods and the warranty are two independent legally identifiable contracts.

Along with this many retailers choose to sell extended warranty cover, which in my mind is a complete waste of money, I will explain why.

Again this is yet another contract, we now have 3, and of course the retailer wants you to buy this as what you are actually doing is paying the insurance premium yourself, on his responsibility. I.E. if the product fails, the cover provider pays for repair, not the retailer, well actually, you pay through your cover and offset the retailer’s liability along with increasing their profit margins you also give them a nice commission payment for selling you the extended warranty.

The reason why this is a waste of money in most instances is:

Luxury items tie a retailer to you, in law, by means of the statute of limitation, for 6 years. Yes readers, your retailer who sold you that awful, now falling apart suite is responsible to you for 6 whole years, by law.

Of course the extended warranty may be a good idea if it includes accidental damage cover but if not, it’s a waste.

If any of you would like any help with your Land of Leather problems, please email me, while I cannot represent anyone in court, I can help with the writing of letters, assessment of claims and basic pointers on what to do next.

Also, Land of Leather are under certain undertakings issued by the court, these were sought by the OFT Kent office, I'm sure they would love to hear from you also.

Happy hunting

Legal Bob

I bought a leather 3-piece suite in January 2004. It was not delivered until April 2004, and I was living on my own in that house until July 2004, when my wife and kids moved from another part of the country. So it's really had less than 2 years use. I paid nearly £1400!

 

The 3 seater only has one useable seat, the middle. The others have collapsed and feel like sitting in a bucket in comparison.

 

someone came to the house last weekend, sat in the two seater, and it looks like that's gone as well now!

 

I need to write obviously, but I am assuming a simple SOGA approach, i.e. reasonable quality etc not lasting for a reasonable time etc. Any other suggestions?

 

Thanks,

 

Martin

Hi everyone, I joined CAG originally re the claiming back of bank charges and are currently reading all the info on this site.

However I have just read all the posts re Land Of Leather.

In August 2005 I bought a suite from LOL which shortly after wards developed a fault with the leather being to slack and causing folds. Eventually after 2 replacements the second being in November 2205 everything seemed ok, although we had to choose a completely different design.

Approx 1 month ago we noticed that the surface was coming off the leather in a few places. I contacted LOL who duly sent out the appointed 'Technician'.

I had heard nothing and phoned up on 22/11/06 for a result.

I was contacted today by the manager of LOL who told me that the problem was caused by 'mis-use' by it apparently not being cleaned properly.

Dare I say Mrs sng and I were a little aghast by this claim as we are quite meticulous in cleaning and with daughters of 18 & 21 there are no young kids soiling it !!

I pointed this out to the manager who did let slip that in the report it actually stated that the rest of the house was extremely clean !

I challenged the manager asking what guidelines/instructions were available for me to adhere to re cleaning to which he became quite defensive stating that 'common sense' was all that was required !!

Having never owned a leather suite previously Mrs sng & I are obviously lacking in 'common sense' !!

The parting gesture from the manager was that there was nothing more to be done and he advised me to contact another technician and have my own report completed. If it contradicted their report then I was to re-contact them to discuss the matter.

To rub salt into the wound, probably like most others I took advantage of the 1 years free credit which is due to be paid next week.

I believe that normally the customers contract is with the finance company, but does that still work on interest free, given that I will have paid it next week?

Any advice/thoughts greatly appreciated, apologies for the length of this post but I am fuming !!

sng

Following on from SNG,

What a wonderful company they are.

Basic rule here is:

Unless they tell you what to do, and of course, what not to do the law views you as an ignorant consumer. Lets face it, they are supposed to be the experts in this area.

Under no circumstances get a second report. Firstly, you will have to pay for it and secondly, if you end up taking them to court, which with these guys is pretty likely, your report will not carry any weight and you will not be able to claim the cost back. If an independant report is required, the court will appoint an independant company to do this and the cost will become part of the costs of action and of course payable by the retailer in question when they loose.

If you want SNG I will help you through this one, I have all the right addresses but the first thing I would advise you to do is issue them a written notice of intended litigation, and give them 28 days to respond, under the L of L contract this notice should be sent recorded deliver to:

Land of Leather Ltd

Units K1-K2

Northfleet Industrial Estate

Lower Road

Gravesend

Kent

DA11 9BL

I will be able to give more advice either over phone or in another private area as some of the tactics that you will need to employ with these guys will have to be a bit millitant.

At the same time of serving notice you should get in contact with the Kent office for the Office of Fair Trading as L of L were placed under court undertakings by them a short while back for various problems that consumers have been experiencing. These undertakings were brought under the Enterprise Act and I am sure OFT will be pleased to hear from you. To be honest I have a file as thick as a donkeys jaw on these guys and you are welcom to join it.

Happy hunting

Legal Bob

Can I join in? If you see my post above (no. 9) I have similar problems, as far as I am concerned the suite is not fit for the purpose. Just like the first time I have had no reply since I phoned them back in September despite them telling me they would call back the next day.

My local Trading Standards, who to be honest have never been very helpful with anything, say that all I can do is ask for another repair under the terms of the extended warranty but it's obvious the suite isn't going to stand the test of time. Frankly I don't want the suite repairing because it's obviously crap, but I don't know where to go from here.

Hi legal Bob & seylectric,

Legal Bob thanks for that, just a quickie reply as i am working tonight and do not have time to or will be allowed ! to call you or go to a private area.

Do you think i should pay the finance to Open and Direct? it is due by 28/11/06?

thanks again the advice is really useful

sng

The general advise is "always maintain your payments".

My personal advice is don't pay, chances are you will never see it again! That's my personal advice, based on past experience. it's a tricky line of thought to recommend but I've always argued that if the debt is in dispute as such, it covers you in the event that they take you to court for non-payment - they never do if they think there is a chance they might lose!

1. Goods that develop a fault within the first 6 months:

 

It is deemed that the fault was present at time of delivery so the goods fall into the SOGA category of not as described. You can take a supporting measure from the quality sections to support this. The seller's hold the legal burden of proving that the goods were not faulty at the point of delivery, almost impossible but not always the case. During the first 6 months the consumer can elect the remedial action that they wish to choose, i.e. refund, replacement, repair, in certain instances, and this would depend on how long you have had the item. It is deemed that you should have long enough to inspect the goods, this time line may vary with the specific type of goods that you have but I always advise that if a product is even slightly failing in its first month, report it in writing to the company without delay, as this may form your case for classifying the goods as unaccepted, should the fault develop into a major problem. Deeming goods as unaccepted retains your right to request a full refund or recession of the contract past the 6 month watershed.

I would clarify this - rather than use the term "as described", I would argue it as being not of satisfactory quality. To argue that it is not "as described" would require an actual description to have been made, not the implied quality expectation. It is true that within the first six months, the burden of proof is with the trader (ie they have to prove it's not faulty, the onus is not on the consumer to prove the fault), but it IS down to the trader whether to offer a repair or replacement. The consumer does have a short time in which to reject the goods and claim a full refund, but in a case such as this it would be a matter of weeks. After this time has passed, they would have been deemed to have legally accepted the goods and therefore a repair or replacement would be the first remedy - and the trader can choose which of these to offer. A consumer cannot demand a certain remedy. And it would be very unusual for a consumer to receive a full refund after several months have passed - unless they hadn't had any wear and tear from the product due to the fault.

Talking about payments, if you withhold your payment then they can take you to court for breach of contract, meaning that you would actually be the defendant. An alternative is to pay under protest - make the payment but make it clear, in writing, that you are paying under protest and intend to take steps to reclaim damages for the cost of getting the suite either repaired (if that's possible) or replaced with a suite of the same current value. You wouldn't be entitled to a brand new suite costing the same as you paid for your current suite over a year ago, for example. You'd have to allow for the fact that you've had that use from it.

rosiecotton, thanks for that.

I have been in touch with Open & Direct today who administer the finance for L o L. To be fair they were quite sympathetic and disturbed by L o L attitude yesterday. They have agreed to rush through a complaint and i have faxed them all the details today. They stated that they would hope to resolve or have an answer prior to Tuesday when my payment is due.

However ... !!! if they don't then your suggestion of payment under protest is a good idea.

I can see me in the small claims court though !! If that is the case then i presume as long as the claim is for under 5000.00 if i lose I won't be liable for their costs? any ideas ?

Thanks

sng

If it's a small claim (under £5000) you won't be liable for solicitors fees, but you may have to pay the court costs - if you lose.

County Court Fees will give you more info on the court costs. If your claim is for less than £1500 you won't have to pay any allocation fees, just the initial issue costs.

They're not a member of Qualitas unfortunately but their site might still have useful info: Qualitas

Following on,

There are a number of issues arrising here that I agree with, in part.

Firstly, SNG on the part of the finance, the best course of action is to pay it. If I remember rightly the L of L finance is a bit of a horror. One day over the interest free period and they apply the full interest charges to the full amount as if you were borrowing for, if I remember rightly, 3 years and you are tied in for that term. Which of course puts you in the 'battle of the banks' area and you can probably do without the hassle of that right now.

Second, the finance company are advising you to use the extended warranty contract to resolve the problem. This is the classic problem that these warranty contracts create. It is a separate contract and is not to be used to substitute the retailers responsability or liability to you. If you make such a claim, it might be much simpler to sort the problem out but on the other hand you let L of L off the hook and achieve for them, the very goal they set out to achieve when they sold you the warranty.

In this instance, the previous post is quite correct that you have acted in such a way as to accept the product. My comments about 'not as described' were in conjunction to any product that arrives damaged, at the point of deliver. In this instance it is the quality that is in question and there is very clear case law to support any claim that you may bring against the retailer. Providing that it is the quality that has failed.

I would persist with the threat to go to court, if the problem is not resolved, they will ignore you, they will send you letters telling you that you are wrong and they will probably even tell you, as I have seen in one letter, that by asking for compensation you are attempting to profeteer from the 'unfortunate situation which is what happened when one poor old couple asked for compensation for Loss of Amenity when they were without a servicable suite for 3 months.

Happy hunting mate

Legal Bob

rosiecotton, Legal Bob

Thanks re qualitas, i had actually t/p them today and they informed me as you have that L o L are not members. If i want to use an indepenant technician i will be looking at least £250.00 !!

Watch this space re the response from Open & Direct !!

I will pay the finance on Tuesday as expected by Open & Direct but perhaps as rosiecotton suggests make sure that I make mention that it is 'under protest'

I am quite prepared for a fight but hopefully from all the advice from this forum will be well prepared for whatever L o L throw at me !

Thanks to all

sng

Brief update, On 24/11 Mrs sng went to L o L to pick up the promised copy of the technicians report. She was met by the manager who couldn't have bent further backward to help if he had been a contortionist !!!

He stated that he had been re-considering the matter and suggested he examine the suite which he duly did yesterday. He disagreed with the technicians report and has agreed to repair it and if that is not viable then apparently further discussions will take place re possible replacement/refund.

Watch this space, i wait with bated breath !!, not sure what has changed his mind though, perhaps Open & Direct finance have applied some pressure?

sng

Brief update, On 24/11 Mrs sng went to L o L to pick up the promised copy of the technicians report. She was met by the manager who couldn't have bent further backward to help if he had been a contortionist !!!

 

He stated that he had been re-considering the matter and suggested he examine the suite which he duly did yesterday. He disagreed with the technicians report and has agreed to repair it and if that is not viable then apparently further discussions will take place re possible replacement/refund.

 

Watch this space, i wait with bated breath !!, not sure what has changed his mind though, perhaps Open & Direct finance have applied some pressure?

 

sng

He has been reading this thread and now knows your not going to take any more excuses:D

hi there.

i have been reading all the problems you've with land of leather and was wondering if anyone can help me.

i ordered a suite on boxing day and was told it would be delivered on 06/01/07 as it was there grand opening and had ordered bulk stock. i was very impressed. delivery date came and went with no suite. i phoned lol and was told i should have received it on the 6th,afterwards i found out that it wasn't coming into the country until the 6th and still had to go through customs? every time i phoned to find out when i would get my sofa, the receptionist would always said it i should already have it and then changing her story. i eventually got my suite begining of febuary, both were faulty. two seater had a foot missing and was showing metal (which we had just had a new floor laid) and the three seaters frame was bent that much it didn't even touch the floor in the middle. lol offered to repair them. i told them we had bought new and expected new, not a repaired one so they exchanged it the following week. after a few days i noticed you sunk into the corner on the two seater so i phoned them back. after i had not heard anything for approx two weeks i phoned then back. request had been cancelled? eventually someone came out on 26/03/07 and said the sofa was not faulty it was just the way the seat sat, he could put a piece of chipboard under it to lift it up. i thought he was joking, he wasn't and i declined his offer. on 28/03/07 the manager phoned me and said it was not lol policy to replace more than one and because i had declined offer of repair, they were cancelling the contract, they said if they did not pick it up within seven days they would start to charge us for usage, they picked it up the next day. it did not bother them leaving us with nothing to sit on until we could have another delivered and they said we could choose something else from their collection, ha ha ha!

is there anything we can do as we feel we have been treated appallingly.