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    • Yes, Hotpoint UK has been a subsidiary of Whirlpool for over 20 years. And unlike some domestic goods manufacturers you can buy from them direct and I believe they employ their own service engineers, Is that your situation? You bought direct from Hotpoint and Hotpoint sent out their own engineer?
    • It's Hotpoint (but I believe they're part of the Whirlpool group now?). The part was bought direct from them as a consumer.
    • Thanks BankFodder for your latest, I'm in complete agreement on the subject of mediation and will be choosing to decline mediation, the longer timeline is not an issue for me, I will happily let the going to court run it's course. I really appreciate the support from the Consumer Action Group. I'll post the email text I'm sending to Evri's small claims in answer to their recent defence response. Regards, J    email text I'm sending to Evri's small claims in answer to their recent defence response:  
    • Sec127 (3) repealed, now gone. S. 127(3)-(5) repealed (6.4.2007) by Consumer Credit Act 2006 (c. 14), ss. {15}, 70, 71(2), {Sch. 4} (with Sch. 3 para. 11); S.I. 2007/123, art. 3(2), Sch. 2
    • We used to recommend that people accept mediation but our advice has changed. The mediation process is unclear. Before you can embark on it you have to agree that you are prepared to enter a compromise – and that means that you agree that you are prepared to give up some of your rights even though you are completely in the right and you are entitled to hundred percent of your money and even though EVRi are simply trying to obstruct you in order to discourage you and also to put others who might want to follow your example off from claiming and even though they have a legitimate basis for reimbursement. Mediation is not transparent. In addition to having to sign up that you are prepared to give up some of your rights, you will also have to agree not to reveal any details of the mediation – including the result of the mediation – so that the whole thing is kept secret. This is not open justice. Mediation has nothing to do with justice. The only way of getting justice is to make sure that this matter goes to trial unless EVRi or the other parcel delivery companies put their hands up and accept the responsibility even if they do it is a gesture of goodwill. Going to trial and winning at trial produces a judgement which we can then add to our small collection to assist other people who are in a similar boat. EVRi had been leading you around by the nose since at least January – and probably last year as well – and their whole purpose is simply to drag it out, to place obstacles in your way, to deter other people, and to make you wish that you'd never started the process and that you are prepared to give up your 300 quid. You shouldn't stand for it. You should take control. EVRi would prefer that you went to mediation and if nothing else that is one excellent reason why you should decline mediation and go to court. If it's good for them it's bad for you. On mediation form, you should sign that you are not prepared to compromise and that you are not prepared to keep the result secret but that you want to share the results with other people in similar circumstances. This means that the mediation won't go ahead. It will take slightly longer and you will have to pay a court fee but you will get that back when you win and you will have much greater satisfaction. Also, once you go the whole process, you will learn even more about bringing a small claim in the County Court so that if this kind of thing happens again you will know what to do and you will go ahead without any hesitation. Finally, if you call EVRi's bluff and refuse mediation and go to trial, there is a chance – maybe not a big chance – but there is a chance that they will agree to pay out your claim before trial simply in order to avoid a judgement. Another judgement against them will simply hurt the position even more and they really don't want this. 300 quid plus your costs is peanuts to them. They don't care about it. They will set it off against tax so the taxpayer will make their contribution. It's all about maintaining their business model of not being liable for anything, and limiting or excluding liability contrary to section 57 and section 72 of the consumer rights act.     And incidentally, there is a myth that if you refuse mediation that somehow it will go against you and the judge will take a dim view and be critical of you. This is precisely a myth. It's not true. It would be highly improper if any judge decided the case against you on anything other than the facts and the law of the case. So don't worry about that. The downside of declining mediation is that your case will take slightly longer. The upside is that if you win you will get all your money and you will have a judgement in your favour which will help others. The chances of you winning in this case are better than 95% and of course you would then receive 100% of your claim plus costs
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      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

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      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
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~~~**IMPORTANT** Mortgage Claimants ~ PLEASE READ ~~


zootscoot
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Following three recent defeats with ERCs:

 

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/mortgage-companies/27030-harsh-letter-received-kensington.html

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/mortgage-companies/19662-maroonfox5-mortgage-express-lost.html

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/mortgage-companies/36778-charbydis-platform-claim-struck.html

 

It is recommended no new ERC claims are made.

 

The mortgage companies have greater litigation departments and more experience of litigation than the banks and are not going to back down so easily.

 

All fast trackers should seriously consider withdrawing their claims to avoid incurring further costs. Try to negotiate out of payment of costs to date. Make an offer to withdraw conditional upon them not pursuing costs. Do not withdraw your claim from court until you have negotiated out of costs.

 

All those with small claims should also consider withdrawing but should also be mindful of the fact that they are liable for costs incurred pre allocation and therefore they may be better off continuing to trial. Do not withdraw your claim from the court until you have negotiated out of costs. You may well be able to negotiate a settlement of a lower amount.

 

Whilst the risks are greater regarding ERCs the claims are not without merit. Seek legal advice if in doubt.

 

Also small claims claimers should also be wary if there is a legal indemnity clause in the contract as mortgage companies are enforcing these to claim their legal costs.

 

Other mortgage charges:

 

There have also been 2 defeats on other mortgage charges:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/mortgage-companies/36778-charbydis-platform-claim-struck.html

 

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/mortgage-companies/59031-barry-swift-court-date.html

 

Charbydis because 15.00 was deemed reasonable. Barry Paul because he was unable to prove the charge was a penalty. Claimants should be aware that the burden of proof is on them to prove that the charge was a penalty.

 

In addition you should also be wary of the mortgage indemnity clauses in the contract. This can make you liable to pay their legal fees for defending your claim and is likely to be more than any charges you have paid.

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Thank you Zoot. Bearing in mind that I have a no costs order against me for the next hearing, do you think it's worth my carrying on?

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/mortgage-companies/17607-ladymoonray-paragon-personal-finance.html

 

I don't want to waste my/the court/paragon's time, but this might be a chance to get a decision in our favour. I have until a week tomorrow to get the bundle in, if I'm going ahead.

Nationwide: £2443. Settled in full

Co-operative Bank Visa: £351. Settled in full.

MBNA Visa: £476. Settled in full.

AA Account with Capital Bank: £80. Settled in full.

Capital One Visa: £160. Settled in full.

Paragon Personal Finance: £120 fees SETTLED ERC claim withdrawn Feb 07.

Kensington Mortgages: Claim withdrawn Feb 07.

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If you've got a no costs order you could end up paying more if you withdraw. I would say you are in the perfect position to continue. You need to be aware that the burden of proof rests on you to prove that it was a penalty and therefore a CPR part 18 request for information is vital.

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Thanks, Zoot. I'm not going to take a final decision whether to go on until I've got everything together for the bundle, but I shall definitely go that far :)

Nationwide: £2443. Settled in full

Co-operative Bank Visa: £351. Settled in full.

MBNA Visa: £476. Settled in full.

AA Account with Capital Bank: £80. Settled in full.

Capital One Visa: £160. Settled in full.

Paragon Personal Finance: £120 fees SETTLED ERC claim withdrawn Feb 07.

Kensington Mortgages: Claim withdrawn Feb 07.

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from what I can see both were lost for different reasons surley this can only strengthan any arguments how much time before the next one is in court if they cannot justify their losses then we might be in with a chance

Bona

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Sorry to hear all this bad news - can't read Barry's at the moment as I have scratched my cornea and looking at the screen hurts.

 

Are you saying that for those of us on small claims the costs would be from the court or from the defendant?

Please note that I am not a legal expert and all advice given is without prejudice and is purely my opinion only.

 

** Nationwide - £1821.15-PAID IN FULL - Aug 06 **

** Halifax Mortgage -£390 - PAID IN FULL - Nov 06 **

Lloyds TSB - MCOL issued 09/03/07 - £2953 + costs - ON HOLD....

 

 

 

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"The lesson to all of us is to have "an official application for a disclosure order" submitted with our claims." Barry's advisory from experience.

As Bona says both cases were lost for different reasons and certainly in Barry's case the omission in question appears to be one (if not THE) main reason for drawing the financial institutions to battle. And the one area that they have,so far, not been prepared to defend. Other than the cases were lost and neither, seemingly, for core legal reasons (a DJ that chooses to ignore certain key facets of a presentation - we still await the appeal; and an entirely different (rectifiable) reason for Barry) there appears to be no common ground or fundamental flaw in the basic reasoning - otherwise please tell me if I am missing something since I've already submitted N1s.

I've already floated the question of participants being "on an equal footing" and "dealing with a case in ways which are proportionate - to the financial position of each party".

Should we assume (hate the word!) that the presence of barristers at the recent proceedings is allowed on the basis that the claiment could have hired one if he/she so wished? And that "equal footing" is only going to occur when the claiment can match the other party for financial resource or are we permitted to challenge the size and scale of the opposition?

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Hi guys, my court date is for 2nd March and I've still got another couple of weeks to get my court bundle in but I'll definitely be continuing, the judge ordered that my claim stay in small claims and I'm only claiming for an ERC, I had no late or missed payments or anything that would have required manual intervention of £2000 to repay my mortgage, the mortgage wasn't even fixed rate, it was a tracker at 2.5% above base rate. I am happy to go to court as its like has already been said I've incurred costs already and therefore have nothing to lose.

 

Sam

I'm a Foolish person

 

IGroup ERC £1928.64 Ist letter sent 12/9

LBA sent 26/9

Moneyclaim input 13/10

Claim acknowledged 6/11

Received fob off letter 11/11

AQs sent back, IGroup request multitrack and hearing

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I have just sent of my initial letter asking for my ERC back, I have had no late payments or anything against the mortgage. Bearing in mind that I have not even got to small claims situation just yet, do I stop or do I carry on ? I am a little concerned/confused.

 

Many thanks

GASS

:lol: GASS
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Draft Order for Directions

The Claimant shall within 14 days of service of this order send to the Defendant and to the Court:

  • a) A schedule setting out each charge repayment of which is sought, showing the date, amount, and reason given (if any) for that charge being made;

  • b) Copies of any statement or other document relied upon as showing that each and every charge has been made;

  • c) A statement of evidence of all matters relied upon as tending to show that the charges are irrecoverable as penalties or otherwise;

  • d) Copies of decided cases and other legal materials to be relied upon.

If the Claimant fails to comply with this order, the claim will be struck out without further order.

 

 

 

2. The Defendant shall within 14 days thereafter file and serve a response to the Claimant's schedule, stating in respect of each item claimed;

  • a) Pursuant to what contractual provision such charge was made, producing a copy of the contractual document relied upon;

  • b) Whether such charge is accepted to be a penalty, and if not why not;

  • c) If such charge is alleged to be a pre-estimate of the Defendant's loss incurred by the Claimant's actions (whether or not such action is treated as a breach of contract between the parties), all facts and matters intended to be relied upon as showing that such was a proper estimate of such loss, and all evidence to be adduced at trial as to what the true cost of dealing with the matter was;

  • d) If such charge is not alleged to be a pre-estimate of the Defendant's loss incurred by the Claimant's actions then facts and matters intended to be relied upon showing the basis upon which the charge was calculated and all evidence to be adduced at trial as to show that the charge was fair and reasonable.

  • e) Any witness statements.

  • f) Copies of decided cases and other legal materials to be relied upon.

If the Defendant fails to comply with this order, the Defence will be struck out without further order

CAN ANYONE CONFIRM THAT THIS IS THE DISCLOSURE ORDER WE RE TALKIN ABOUT

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I am up to the point of sending in my allocation questionnaire. Probably will go to the fast track.

 

I read Barry and Jamorgans thread with complete horror and hope they will both win the war after their setbacks.

 

I am trying to work out how it will effect my claim. I did not have missed payments and I do have paperwork from the Abbey where they use the word penalty when calculating the charge. (Sent a copy to Tamadus.)

 

Just want to know if I have covered all basis i.e is there a formal request I make on my AQ that makes them disclose their costs and losses that they incurred when I breached my mortgages terms and conditions.

 

Good luck to everyone who is going to court in the near future. Big cosmic ordering of luck and kind judges to you all.:smile:

 

juli99

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Hi Team

 

Today i had a phone call from the solicitor acting on behalf of Birmingham Midshires. I have been selected from all of the current claims going on, to be the first to go into court and present my case. He also said that they are about to apply for an extention on the time limit for submitting their court bundle, as they have only just been hired by Birmingham Midshires to sort out the claims coming in. After running through various arguments, i have decided to accept the offer of half of my claim, which was offered back in October. This was a difficult decision for me to make. I have with Zoots and others help, worked hard at getting everything right.

He has informed me that they will defend in court ALL claims issued against them. He also confirmed Barristers are going to be used.

The risk in my case is small compared to others, and i have seen brave people in the threads here take on the Mortgage companies and lose.

 

I recommend that ALL NEW ERC claims be put on HOLD for now. It is too risky to your families security, and financial security to tackle them at this moment in time. DLA Piper are getting more work from other financial institutions with regard to ERC claims. Maybe in 6 months time we can try again if there has been a test case, or another loophole found.

 

My advice here is not running away scared, this is purely and simply Damage Limitation. I would hate for someone to go into court for a £6000 claim and come out owing that amount in their costs. I feel it is too risky to carry on at this time. From some PM's i have had about claiming Erc's and the questions asked about the law, some will be ripped apart in court by the Barrister. 6 people turned up at Barrys hearing. Please follow Zoots advice. I am.

WARNING TO ALL

Please be aware of acting on advice given by PM .Anyone can make mistakes and if advice is given on the main forum people can see it to correct it ,if given privately then no one can see it to correct it. Please also be aware of giving your personal details to strangers

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I am gutted, I was going to go after Midshires but have dragged my feet since November and now looks like I've missed out!

 

Was going to use the cash to settle a debt as well - hopefully we will get around it... :(

UPDATE -

 

Claim submitted, HSBC have until May 13th to Acknowledge.

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Sorry to bring you bad news, but the risk is too great. Spent 20 mins with a Barrister last night in Cranfield Aerodrome bar. Asked him about it and he said the same thing, you exercised your right to redeem. That is what he would use in court. Maybe in 6 months time we maybe in a better position to win without going to court. I see you had decided what to spend your money on. The ones who have been paid out were paid by the legal team in BM and were not use to these sort of ERC claims. Paid out in error he said.

WARNING TO ALL

Please be aware of acting on advice given by PM .Anyone can make mistakes and if advice is given on the main forum people can see it to correct it ,if given privately then no one can see it to correct it. Please also be aware of giving your personal details to strangers

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Terrible news - this really does seem to be a legal technicality though, rather than the defendant winning the case based on the points of law raised.

 

I have just sent my 14 day letter to the Halifax, but I note that these claims were both in the County Courts.

 

Do you think these rulings will be distributed around all the banks as well? They must all be looking for ways out of this situation?

 

As I had no late payments and the base rates were far below my APR for the entire period of my loan (see thread Mattfromnotts vs Halifax), I would assert that this argument would not stand up in court. What is the position in the small claims court with regards to costs?

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rhianweir - put it on hold for now. Zoot is advising not to start new claims in light of what has happened recently.

Please note that I am not a legal expert and all advice given is without prejudice and is purely my opinion only.

 

** Nationwide - £1821.15-PAID IN FULL - Aug 06 **

** Halifax Mortgage -£390 - PAID IN FULL - Nov 06 **

Lloyds TSB - MCOL issued 09/03/07 - £2953 + costs - ON HOLD....

 

 

 

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I think I am to far down the line to withdraw. I have a case manaagement hearing on 13th Feb. This will be fast track if I get my way or multi track if they get thiers. It's against Kensington. They have applied for a strike out of the ERC but not the charges. If they get the strike out, will I still be liable for costs even though the remainder of the claim will continue?

Please Click The Scales if I have been of help to you.

 

 

Kensington Mortgages withdrawn. no costs

NatWest Settled in full

Abbey Court Settled in Full

Capital 1 settled in full

Halifax settled in full :D

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They have applied for a strike out of the ERC but not the charges. If they get the strike out, will I still be liable for costs even though the remainder of the claim will continue?

 

If you contest the strike out and lose you are likely to be liable for the fees attributable to the strike out.

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Will the Express article re OFT in the "Harsh letter from Kensington" thread have a bearing?

 

Not yet I doubt but I have wrote to my MP (Jack Straw) to ask him to get the FSA to look at these fees. If they can call £200 unjustifiable then I cannot see how they cannot investigate ERC's.

Please note that I am not a legal expert and all advice given is without prejudice and is purely my opinion only.

 

** Nationwide - £1821.15-PAID IN FULL - Aug 06 **

** Halifax Mortgage -£390 - PAID IN FULL - Nov 06 **

Lloyds TSB - MCOL issued 09/03/07 - £2953 + costs - ON HOLD....

 

 

 

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Hi all,

 

As I've just said on my thread I'm not giving up because my defeat has taught me where I went wrong & I won't make the same mistake twice.

 

For my full response to comments on this thread & my own please follow the link to my thread below & go to comment 37

 

Barry v Swift (Court date 29/01/07)

 

Barry

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