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    • I know dx and thanks again for yours and others help. I was 99.999% certain last payment was over six years ago if not longer.  👍
    • Paragraph 23 – "standard industry practice" – put this in bold type. They are stupid to rely on this and we might as well carry on emphasising how stupid they are. I wonder why they could even have begun to think some kind of compelling argument – "the other boys do it so I do it as well…" Same with paragraph 26   Paragraph 45 – The Defendants have so far been unable to produce any judgements at any level which disagree with the three judgements…  …court, but I would respectfully request…   Just the few amendments above – and I think it's fine. I think you should stick to the format that you are using. This has been used lots of times and has even been applauded by judges for being meticulous and clear. You aren't a professional. Nobody is expecting professional standards and although it's important that you understand exactly what you are doing – you don't really want to come over to the judge that you have done this kind of thing before. As a litigant in person you get a certain licence/leeway from judges and that is helpful to you – especially if you are facing a professional advocate. The way this is laid out is far clearer than the mess that you will get from EVRi. Quite frankly they undermine their own credibility by trying to say that they should win simply because it is "standard industry practice". It wouldn't at all surprise me if EVRi make you a last moment offer of the entire value of your claim partly to avoid judgement and also partly to avoid the embarrassment of having this kind of rubbish exposed in court. If they do happen to do that, then you should make sure that they pay everything. If they suddenly make you an out-of-court offer and this means that they are worried that they are going to lose and so you must make sure that you get every penny – interest, costs – everything you claimed. Finally, if they do make you an out-of-court offer they will try to sign you up to a confidentiality agreement. The answer to that is absolutely – No. It's not part of the claim and if they want to settle then they settle the claim as it stands and don't try add anything on. If they want confidentiality then that will cost an extra £1000. If they don't like it then they can go do the other thing. Once you have made the amendments suggested above – it should be the final version. court,. I don't think we are going to make any more changes. Your next job good to make sure that you are completely familiar with it all. That you understand the arguments. Have you made a court familiarisation visit?
    • just type no need to keep hitting quote... as has already been said, they use their own criteria. if a person is not stated as linked to you on your file then no cant hurt you. not all creditors use every CRA provider, there are only 3 main credit file providers mind, the rest are just 3rd party data sharers. if you already have revolving credit on your file there is no need to apply for anything just 'because' you need to show you can handle money. if you have bank account(s) and a mortgage which you are servicing (paying) then nothing more can improve your score, despite what these 'scam' sites claiml  its all a CON!!  
  • Our picks

    • If you are buying a used car – you need to read this survival guide.
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    • Hello,

      On 15/1/24 booked appointment with Big Motoring World (BMW) to view a mini on 17/1/24 at 8pm at their Enfield dealership.  

      Car was dirty and test drive was two circuits of roundabout on entry to the showroom.  Was p/x my car and rushed by sales exec and a manager into buying the mini and a 3yr warranty that night, sale all wrapped up by 10pm.  They strongly advised me taking warranty out on car that age (2017) and confirmed it was honoured at over 500 UK registered garages.

      The next day, 18/1/24 noticed amber engine warning light on dashboard , immediately phoned BMW aftercare team to ask for it to be investigated asap at nearest garage to me. After 15 mins on hold was told only their 5 service centres across the UK can deal with car issues with earliest date for inspection in March ! Said I’m not happy with that given what sales team advised or driving car. Told an amber warning light only advisory so to drive with caution and call back when light goes red.

      I’m not happy to do this, drive the car or with the after care experience (a sign of further stresses to come) so want a refund and to return the car asap.

      Please can you advise what I need to do today to get this done. 
       

      Many thanks 
      • 81 replies
    • Housing Association property flooding. https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/438641-housing-association-property-flooding/&do=findComment&comment=5124299
      • 160 replies
    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

      Please note that a recent case against UPS failed on exactly the same issue with the judge held that the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 did not apply.

      We will be getting that transcript very soon. We will look at it and we will understand how the judge made such catastrophic mistakes. It was a very poor judgement.
      We will be recommending that people do include this adverse judgement in their bundle so that when they go to county court the judge will see both sides and see the arguments against this adverse judgement.
      Also, we will be to demonstrate to the judge that we are fair-minded and that we don't mind bringing everything to the attention of the judge even if it is against our own interests.
      This is good ethical practice.

      It would be very nice if the parcel delivery companies – including EVRi – practised this kind of thing as well.

       

      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
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mcuth v HFC ***SETTLED***


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DPA letter sent 25/04/06 for:

1 x Marbles card

1 x Benificial card

 

Will split threads accordingly when DPA details received :)

 

They have until 5th June to reply - bring it on!

 

Cheers

 

Michael

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  • 1 month later...

Statements since card opening received today for both & cheque sent back. Am not going to split the threads as I'll be sending a claim in for both together....

 

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Michael

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  • 2 weeks later...

Totted up charges - £200 on each card, so I'm taking on HFC for £400 total :)

 

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Michael

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  • 3 weeks later...

Prelim letter sent today by RM Special Delivery:

 

HFC Bank PLC

120 Edmond Street

Birmingham

B3 2QZ

By Royal Mail Special Delivery

Dear Sir/Madam

Beneficial Credit Card Account Number XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Marbles Credit Card Account Number XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

REQUEST FOR REFUND OF CHARGES

My request

I am writing to ask you to refund the charges which you have levied from my accounts since inception. I now understand that the regime of fees which you have applied to my accounts in relation over limit, late payment and so forth are unlawful at Common Law, Statute and recent consumer regulations. If you say that they are not, then will you please demonstrate this by letting me have a full breakdown of the costs to which you have been put by as a result of my breaches, in order to reassure me that your penalties really do reflect your costs.

 

I am of the view that your charges represent a penalty and are therefore unrecoverable at Common Law. In the Scottish case of Castaneda and Others v. Clydebank Engineering and Shipbuilding Co., Ltd. (1904) 12 SLT 498; the House of Lords held that a contractual party can only recover damages for actual or liquidated losses incurred from a breach of contract. This is also the position in English law: Wilson v Love [1896]; Dunlop Pneumatic Tyre Co Ltd v New Garage and Motor Co Ltd [1915] AC 79; Ford Motor Co v Armstrong [1915]; Bridge v Campbell Discount Co. Ltd [1962]; Murray v Leisureplay [2004].

Your charges do not reflect any actual loss; instead they appear to represent a lucrative profit-making scheme. In

particular, charges were applied after I entered into transactions without sufficient funds in my account and also when I have gone overdrawn without authorisation. The actual loss is the cost of automatically sending me a computer generated letter. I would respectfully submit that is valued at no more than 50 pence.

UK banks have recently given evidence to the House of Commons Treasury Committee on how bank charges are

calculated: "The costs are going to pay for all the people we have who pursue debt, collect debt, speak to customers and chase payments. The way these charges are arrived at is by taking these total costs and making some assumptions about the volume that is going to come through to arrive at the individual charges" (2nd report, 25 January 2005, paragraph 50).

Accordingly, the charges applied to my account are not a reasonable pre-estimate of your loss in relation to my account. No-one has had to look at my account or telephone me. No one has had to collect anything. Your

charges would appear to represent a device to recover global losses (for example, loan defaulters, bad debt write off, including commercial lending in, and outwith, the UK).

On a separate note, your charges appear to represent an unfair term of contract which is contrary to the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 (SI. 1999/2083). My account falls within the scope of Regulation 5 of the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 as I am a consumer. Your charges constitute an unfair

penalty under reference to paragraph 1(e) of schedule 2 of the said regulations:

Indicative and non-exhaustive list of terms which may be regarded as unfair - 1. Terms which have the

object of effect of - (e) requiring any consumer who fails his obligation to pay a disproportionately high

sum in compensation’.

0n 26 July 2005, the OFT stated that 'a charge is likely to be disproportionately high if it is more than a court would

be likely to award if the lender sued the cardholder for breach of contract'. Because your charges include a large

profit margin, in addition to actual loss, they are unrecoverable as an unfair term in contract. I believe that your

charges require me to pay a disproportionately high sum in compensation for incurring transactions which were

ultimately declined by an automated computer system. In addition, it is unfair to require me to subsidise your global debt recovery costs and debt write-off.

It has now been confirmed that your particularly high level of penalties are considered to be unfair per se by the OFT who reported on the 5th April 2006 and are therefore presumed to be unlawful in the absence of specific proof to the contrary..

Your responsibilities

I would draw your attention to the terms of the contract which you agreed to at the time that I opened my account. It is an implied term of that contract that you would conduct yourselves lawfully and in a manner which complies with UK law.

 

I am frankly shocked that you have operated my account in this way as I had always reposed confidence in your integrity and expertise as my fiduciary. I consider that your repeated representations that your charges are fair and reasonable are deceptive and that they have deceived me into agreeing to pay them. Your concealment of the true nature of your charges has prevented me from asserting my right until now

 

What I require

I calculate that, as at today’s date, you have taken a nett total of £400.00. I request that you refund this amount in full and enclose a schedule of the charges which I am claiming with this letter.

 

Targets to resolve this matter

I hope that you will enter into a sincere dialogue with me about this matter and write on the assumption that you will prefer to do this rather than merely respond with standard letters and leaflets.

 

You have 10 working days, from receipt of this letter (i.e. by Wednesday 5th July 2006), to reply unconditionally accepting my request in principle and letting me know a date by which I will receive payment.

 

If you do not respond, or do not respond positively, within this time period, I shall send you a further letter before action allowing a further 10 working days in which to reflect. I believe that these targets are more than sufficient for a large company such as yours with dedicated staff and departments.

After that will be no further communication from myself and I shall issue a claim at the expiry of the second deadline.

I look forward to hearing from you by return.

Yours faithfully,

 

Cheers

 

Michael

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Received the following letter from the Marbles dept (verbatim, including abysmal punctuation):

 

Dear {mcuth}

 

Re: Account XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

 

Thank you for your letter dated 28th June 2006; I have now fully investigated the matters raised.

 

Default charges are charges payable if customers do not make the required minimum payment by the payment due date, if they exceed their credit limit, or if a payment to their credit card account is returned unpaid. The amount of these charges, and the circumstances, in which they are applied, is set out clearly in HFC Bank Ltd's credit card agreements. We believe that our charges to customers are fair and reasonable.

 

The OFT has recently published the findings from its enquiry into default charges on credit cards. HFC Bank has carefully considered the OFT's publication and does not accept its findings. However, the OFT's investigation has led to a change in market practices and we have therefore decided, for commercial reasons and in the interests of customers, to reduce our credit card default charges for the future. These changes do not affect charges that have already been applied. Accordingly, I regret that we are not prepared to make any refund of default charges or provide any compensation payments. I hope I have been able to clarify HFC Bank's position on credit card charges.

 

Thank you for taking the time to contact me to bring this matter to my attention, I am only sorry it was necessary for you to do so. I hope that matters have now been resolved to your satisfaction, however, should you require any additional information or further assistance, please do not hesitate to contact me on XXXX XXX XXXX.

 

Yours sincerely

 

Claire Plummer

Senior Customer Service Advisor

Executive Complaints

 

I think that's the funniest letter I've seen yet!

Anyway, I noticed that the deadline date was incorrect in my original prelim letter, so come next Thursday (13th), I'll be sending in the LBA :D

 

Cheers

 

Michael

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LBA sent today:

 

Thursday, 13th July, 2006

 

HFC Bank PLC

120 Edmond Street

Birmingham

B3 2QZ

 

By Royal Mail Special Delivery

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Beneficial Credit Card Account Number XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Marbles Credit Card Account Number XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Your reference XXX/XXXXXXX

 

REQUEST FOR REFUND OF CHARGESLETTER BEFORE ACTION

 

Further to my letter of 28th June, and Claire Plummer’s reply of 3rd July 2006, I am again writing to ask you to refund the charges which you have levied from my accounts since inception. I now understand that the regime of “fees” which you have been applying to my account in relation to “over limit”/late payments and so forth are unlawful at Common Law, Statute and recent Consumer regulations. My letter of 28th June explains this in detail and Claire Plummer’s reply of 3rd July does not alter the fact that your charges do not represent a genuine pre-estimate of the actual cost of my breach of contract.

 

I would draw your attention to the terms of the contract which you agreed to at the time that I opened my account. It is an implied term of that contract that you would conduct yourselves lawfully and in a manner which complies with UK law.

I calculate that, as at today’s date, you have taken a nett total of £400.00. I require repayment of this amount in full and have enclosed a schedule of the charges that I am reclaiming. I would also contend that as these monies are unlawfully charged, payment should be made directly to me rather than being credited to the accounts.

 

If you do not fully comply within 10 working days of receipt of this letter (i.e. by Friday 28th July 2006), I shall begin a claim against you for the full amount (plus interest, plus my costs) without further notice.

 

I look forward to hearing from you by return.

 

Yours faithfully,

 

{mcuth}

 

Cheers

 

Michael

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hi mcuth

i have just started with hfc regarding my beneficial card i have charges for over £500 so any advice you get pass it on i am not as far into my claim as you.When i phoned them for my account number they asked for £120 pound for statments to be sent out but i reminded them they can only charge£10 they accepted it so just starting my letter now to send off for statements

 

ian&ang

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Received the following "goodwill offfer" today, appalling grammar & punctuation again (dated 16th July - Sunday? :eek:):

 

Dear {mcuth}

 

Thank you for your recent communication regarding the above account.

 

As I have previously explained, default charges are charges payable if customers do not make the required minimum payment by the payment due date, if they exceed their credit limit, or if a payment to their credit card account is returned unpaid. The amount of these charges, and the circumstances, in which they are applied, is set out clearly in HFC Bank Ltd's credit card agreements. We believe that our charges to customers are fair and reasonable.

 

The OFT has recently published the findings from its enquiry into default charges on credit cards. HFC Bank has carefully considered the OFT's publication and does not accept its findings. However, the OFT's investigation has led to a change in market practices and we have therefore decided, for commercial reasons and in the interests of customers, to reduce its credit card default charges for the future. These changes do not affect charges that have already been applied.

 

However, not withstanding the above, I would very much like to acknowledge that you are a valued customer of the bank. Therefore, I would like to offer you a goodwill payment of £200.00.

 

The payment is being offered on the basis that you are agreeing that you will not make any further claims or take any legal action on this matter. This gesture is without prejudice to our right to impose and recover default charges in the future.

 

If you agree to our goodwill payment, I would be grateful if you could sign and return the enclosed acceptance form and I will be happy to apply the credit to your account.

 

Whilst I hope matters are now resolved to your satisfaction, if this is not the case please let me know, as complaints we cannot resolve can ultimately be referred to the Financial Ombudsman Service. If I do not hear from you within 8 weeks we will consider the matter resolved.

 

Yours sincerely

 

Clare Plummer

Senior Customer Service Advisor

Executive Complaints

 

So, this is my reply:

 

Dear Ms Plummer

Beneficial Credit Card Account Number XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Marbles Credit Card Account Number XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Your reference XXX/XXXXXXX

Thank you for your letter of 16th July, received today.

I write to reject your goodwill payment offer - it is not the sum I require refunding, nor will I agree to the terms you specify in the agreement.

My “Letter Before Action” of 13th July is very clear on what is required to resolve this issue – full payment of the sum of £400.00 debited in unlawful charges since account inception, payable to me directly. You are reminded that the 10 working days to comply (as specified in my letter) is still in force, and failure to comply with this request by Friday 28th July 2006 will result in a County Court claim being brought against HFC Bank for the full amount (plus interest, plus my costs) without further notice.

 

I look forward to hearing from you.

Yours sincerely,

 

{mcuth}

 

 

Cheers

 

Michael

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  • 2 weeks later...

Claim to be taken to Swindon County Court today - with interest/court fees, the amount has gone up to £493.46 from £400.00

 

Will PM a mod when the claim is issued...

 

Cheers

 

Michael

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Case no: 6SN02737

Swindon County Court

Value: £493.46 (£400 + £43.46 interest + £50 fee)

Issue: 31st July 2006

Deemed to be served: 5th August 2006

 

:D

 

Cheers

 

Michael

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Received the following from Swindon County Court today:

 

Acknowledgement of Service filed on 09/08/06 - intention to defend all of the claim. Defendant has until 2nd September to file defence.

 

Cheers

 

Michael

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  • 2 years later...

McCuth, just read your thread, i've had a goodwill offer made from Marbles i dont want to accept this i have coped your letter post 8. How do i now take them to court? I have a thread on Tracey v HFc (Marbes) PPI as I'm also trying to get this back. Thank you

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McCuth, just read your thread, i've had a goodwill offer made from Marbles i dont want to accept this i have coped your letter post 8. How do i now take them to court? I have a thread on Tracey v HFc (Marbes) PPI as I'm also trying to get this back. Thank you

 

I'm not sure what you'll need to do about the PPI stuff as I've not had one of those cases meself. As far as commencing court proceedings for charges go, take a look in the library, as it is all detailed there.

 

HTH

 

Cheers

Michael

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  • 10 years later...

This topic was closed on 09 March 2019.

If you have a problem which is similar to the issues raised in this topic, then please start a new thread and you will get help and support there.

If you would like to post up some information which is relevant to this particular topic then please flag the issue up to the site team and the thread will be reopened.

- Consumer Action Group

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