DPA letter sent 25/04/06 for:

2 x loan a/c

1 x current a/c

1 x credit card a/c

Will split threads accordingly when DPA details received

They have until 5th June to reply - bring it on!

Cheers

Michael

by the looks of it you're going to be quite a busy guy when all these statements come winging their way in!

Good luck and keep everyone posted!

by the looks of it you're going to be quite a busy guy when all these statements come winging their way in!

Well, ya know, gotta have something to do - if only work wouldn't get in the way ;-)

Good luck and keep everyone posted!

Thanks - will do

Cheers

Michael

Statements received for the loan & current accounts - nothing on the credit card yet. I feel a little reminder letter coming on....

Cheers

Michael

No need for the reminder letter, copy statements arrived today

Hmm, so with all this paper around, I know what I'll be doing while I recover from my knee operation next week

Cheers

Michael

Hi Mcuth.

I found i highlighted each charge on the provided sheets of paper, but now in hindsight i think its best to actually make fresh list of the charge /date and amount.

As with Abbey any bank could start asking for the break down of charges.

Vamps interest sreadsheet is brilliant for this, It would have saved me alot of time if i had done it from my intial checking.

just an ideal that may help,

BL

Totted up the charges:

Current a/c = £194

Credit card = £75

+ the DPA request fee = £279

Cheers

Michael

Prelim letter sent today by RM Special Delivery:

Lloyds TSB Bank PLC

Customer Care

125 Colmore Row

Birmingham

B3 3SF

By Royal Mail Special Delivery

Dear Sir/Madam

CURRENT ACCOUNT NUMBER XXXXXXX (Sort Code XX-XX-XX)

CREDIT CARD ACCOUNT NUMBER XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

REQUEST FOR REFUND OF CHARGES

My request

I am writing to ask you to refund the charges which you have levied from my account since inception. I now understand that the regime of fees which you have applied to my account in relation to direct debit/standing order refusal, over limit, late payment and so forth are unlawful at Common Law, Statute and recent consumer regulations. If you say that they are not, then will you please demonstrate this by letting me have a full breakdown of the costs to which you have been put by as a result of my breaches, in order to reassure me that your penalties really do reflect your costs.

 

I am of the view that your charges represent a penalty and are therefore unrecoverable at Common Law. In the Scottish case of Castaneda and Others v. Clydebank Engineering and Shipbuilding Co., Ltd. (1904) 12 SLT 498; the House of Lords held that a contractual party can only recover damages for actual or liquidated losses incurred from a breach of contract. This is also the position in English law: Wilson v Love [1896]; Dunlop Pneumatic Tyre Co Ltd v New Garage and Motor Co Ltd [1915] AC 79; Ford Motor Co v Armstrong [1915]; Bridge v Campbell Discount Co. Ltd [1962]; Murray v Leisureplay [2004].

Your charges do not reflect any actual loss; instead they appear to represent a lucrative profit-making scheme. In

particular, charges were applied after I entered into transactions without sufficient funds in my account and also when I have gone overdrawn without authorisation. The actual loss is the cost of automatically sending me a computer generated letter. I would respectfully submit that is valued at no more than 50 pence.

UK banks have recently given evidence to the House of Commons Treasury Committee on how bank charges are

calculated: "The costs are going to pay for all the people we have who pursue debt, collect debt, speak to customers and chase payments. The way these charges are arrived at is by taking these total costs and making some assumptions about the volume that is going to come through to arrive at the individual charges" (2nd report, 25 January 2005, paragraph 50).

Accordingly, the charges applied to my account are not a reasonable pre-estimate of your loss in relation to my account. No-one has had to look at my account or telephone me. No one has had to collect anything. Your

charges would appear to represent a device to recover global losses (for example, loan defaulters, bad debt write off, including commercial lending in, and outwith, the UK).

On a separate note, your charges appear to represent an unfair term of contract which is contrary to the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 (SI. 1999/2083). My account falls within the scope of Regulation 5 of the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 as I am a consumer. Your charges constitute an unfair

penalty under reference to paragraph 1(e) of schedule 2 of the said regulations:

‘Indicative and non-exhaustive list of terms which may be regarded as unfair - 1. Terms which have the

object of effect of - (e) requiring any consumer who fails his obligation to pay a disproportionately high

sum in compensation’.

0n 26 July 2005, the OFT stated that 'a charge is likely to be disproportionately high if it is more than a court would

be likely to award if the lender sued the cardholder for breach of contract'. Because your charges include a large

profit margin, in addition to actual loss, they are unrecoverable as an unfair term in contract. I believe that your charges require me to pay a disproportionately high sum in compensation for incurring transactions which were

ultimately declined by an automated computer system. In addition, it is unfair to require me to subsidise your global debt recovery costs and debt write-off.

It has now been confirmed that your particularly high level of penalties are considered to be unfair per se by the OFT who reported on the 5th April 2006 and are therefore presumed to be unlawful in the absence of specific proof to the contrary..

Your responsibilities

I would draw your attention to the terms of the contract which you agreed to at the time that I opened my account. It is an implied term of that contract that you would conduct yourselves lawfully and in a manner which complies with UK law.

 

I am frankly shocked that you have operated my account in this way as I had always reposed confidence in your integrity and expertise as my fiduciary. I consider that your repeated representations that your charges are fair and reasonable are deceptive and that they have deceived me into agreeing to pay them. Your concealment of the true nature of your charges has prevented me from asserting my right until now

 

What I require

I calculate that, as at today’s date, you have taken a nett total of £269.00. As advised in my DPA request, I am also reclaiming the statutory £10.00 DPA fee. This makes a total of £279.00. I request that you refund this amount in full and enclose a schedule of the charges which I am claiming with this letter.

 

Targets to resolve this matter

I hope that you will enter into a sincere dialogue with me about this matter and write on the assumption that you will prefer to do this rather than merely respond with standard letters and leaflets.

 

You have 10 working days, from receipt of this letter (i.e. by Wednesday 5th July 2006), to reply unconditionally accepting my request in principle and letting me know a date by which I will receive payment.

 

If you do not respond, or do not respond positively, within this time period, I shall send you a further letter before action allowing a further 10 working days in which to reflect. I believe that these targets are more than sufficient for a large company such as yours with dedicated staff and departments.

After that will be no further communication from myself and I shall issue a claim at the expiry of the second deadline.

I look forward to hearing from you by return.

Yours faithfully,

Cheers

Michael

Received a reply from the "Customer Service Recovery Centre" today:

5th July 2006

 

Dear {mcuth}

 

Thank you for getting in touch with us. I am sorry you are unhappy over your account charges.

 

Like any business, we do make a charge for some of our extra services. When a customer doesn't have enough in their account to cover a payment, this always means additional work. We must either make the payment for you via an overdraft or send the payment request back. Either way, it has to happen speedily. We feel it's only fair to charge for the extra work involved.

 

Of course, it is only fair, too, that we're completely open about any charged-for services before you take them up. That's why we take care to provide every new customer with the latest guide to our charges. You can also get up-to-date details about fees and borrowing rates at all our branches, via our helpline and on our website.

 

Just as importantly, we do everything we can to help our customers avoid charges altogether.

 

I'm sure you'll know how easy it is to keep a running check on how much is in your account. You're free to get an up-to-date balance at any of our cash machines, over the phone, online and nowadays even by text to your mobile.

 

If you know a payment is going to take you over the limit, you're welcome to see if we can raise your limit - and we can usually give you an answer straightaway. You might know, too, that we don't usually charge fees if it's the first day in 12 months that you've gone overdrawn without agreeing it with us beforehand. And we never charge an overdraft excess fee more than three times in any one month, however many times you go over your limit.

 

You've mentioned the new guidelines from the Office of Fair Trading on credit card default charges. We don't agree with the OFT's thinking on this and we're still talking it through with them. But the important point is that the guidelines only concern "default" charges. The fees we charge for going over an overdraft limit and for returned payments are not any kind of default penalty. They are fixed standard prices for the service we provide in these situations. So according to our legal experts, the OFT's guidelines on credit card default charges do not in any way apply.

 

I do hope you can see that we make our charging system as fair as possible - and why I cannot agree to cancel your charges. I have arranged for a cheque to be sent to you to cover the £10 DPA fee.

 

Our Card Services department will respond to you regarding the credit card charges that you have incurred.

 

In case you haven't recieved a copy of our leaflet called "How to voice your concerns" I've enclosed one with my letter. This tells you all you need to know about resolving your complaint with us.

 

If you're still unhappy, please don't hesitate to tell me what more you would like me to do. If we cannot agree a solution at that point, I can help you refer your complaint to the Financial Ombudsman Service for independent review.

 

So long as you feel I've dealt satisfactorily with the points you raised with us, there's no need for you to reply. If I have not heard back from you by 30 August 2006, I will take it that matters are resolved between us - though of course I'll be happy to hear from you should you come back at any point afterwards.

 

Yours sincerely

 

Ms Musarat Siddique

Customer Service Officer

How &^%*ing patronising is that?

Boo-hoo, poor Lloyds - I feel soooo sorry for them with all the extra work that they have to do performing these "extra services" (no, services, not penalties) that I so obviously requested :rolleyes:

Again, roll on next Thursday and they can have their LBA

Cheers

Michael

Hmm, exactly the same bull I just received. You'd think the silly gits would realise when seeing our letters being all similar that we are from the same source and that we WON'T be backing down. Why do they waste even more time money trying?

I bet loads of peeps back out at each and every stage for all sorts of reasons i would imagine its worth their while just for 20% of peeps to back out, i have suggested this site to loads of friends and they have all said it looks to complicated and worrying, im sure the banks are well aware of this and this is why they continue wouldn't you? they have a lot to lose if everyone took them to court they would lose billions its damage limitation excercise thats all, well that show i see it anyway.

Regards

adamski

LBA sent today:

Thursday, 13th July, 2006

 

Ms Musarat Siddique

Customer Service Officer

Customer Service Recovery Centre

Lloyds TSB Bank PLC

125 Colmore Row

Birmingham

B3 3SF

By Royal Mail Special Delivery

Dear Ms Siddique

CURRENT ACCOUNT NUMBER XXXXXXXX (Sort Code XX-XX-XX)

CREDIT CARD ACCOUNT NUMBER XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

 

Your ref: XXXX/XX/XX/XXXXXX

REQUEST FOR REFUND OF CHARGES – LETTER BEFORE ACTION

Further to my letter of 28th June and your reply of 5th July 2006, I am again writing to ask you to refund the charges which you have levied from my account since inception. I now understand that the regime of “fees” which you have been applying to my account in relation to “over limit”/late payments/direct debit/standing order refusals, unauthorised overdrafts and so forth are unlawful at Common Law, Statute and recent Consumer regulations. My letter of 28th June explains this in detail – and I contend that these fees are penalties, not “charges for extra services” as you’re keen to imply.

I would draw your attention to the terms of the contract which you agreed to at the time that I opened my account. It is an implied term of that contract that you would conduct yourselves lawfully and in a manner which complies with UK law.

I note that you have put in a request to refund the £10 DPA fee, however this has not been received yet – therefore I calculate that as at today’s date, you have taken a nett total of £279.00. I require repayment of this amount in full and have enclosed a schedule of the charges that I am reclaiming. I would also contend that as these monies are unlawfully charged, payment should be made directly to me rather than being credited to the accounts.

If you do not fully comply within 10 working days of receipt of this letter (i.e. by Friday 28th July 2006), I shall begin a claim against you for the full amount (plus interest, plus my costs) without further notice.

 

I look forward to hearing from you by return.

Yours sincerely,

 

{mcuth}

Cheers

Michael

Received a cheque for £10 in today's post - that'll be the DPA request refund then...

Cheers

Michael

Keep fighting - I've done a moneyclaim, and lloyds are procrastinating through the courts system.

just to let you guys know we to received the self same letter from ms siddique on the 3rd july then sent lba letter on the 10th july recieved reply to that on the 14th july saying sorry but no refund next step monyclaim form . juat as an after thought ref credit card late pay fees sent my june statements back to all 3 of mine requesting reviews on late pay charge

capital one reply "it is we who make the rules not the oft so no refund please pay bill asap"

morgan stanly account credited to the tune of £276.40p

tsb no rply as yet (theres a suprise)

keep the faith people

Received the following from the credit card dept today, dated 14th July:

Dear {mcuth}

 

Thank you for your recent letter dated 28 June about charges on your account.

Please firstly accept my sincere apologies for the length of time that it has taken to respond to you.

 

Following the Office of Fair Trading's (OFT) statement of 5th April 2006, you believe certain charges we have made to your account (for example late payments/returned payments/exceeding your authorised credit limit) are unlawful and have asked for them to be refunded.

 

You'll know that most of our credit card services are completely free, and your card provides a convenient method of payment that can be used worldwide. We do however make a charge if you pay us late, or if we let you go over your agreed credit limit, or if we have to tell you that a payment into your account isn't met. All these matters cause us extra cost.

 

These charges are not hidden. You can find them on your monthly statements, on our website or by contacting our branch staff or telehone helpline. The minimum monthly payment and the payment date, and you credit limit, are also clearly shown on every statement. So you should find it easy to stick to the legal terms and conditions you have agreed to.

 

We believe our charging policy is fair. The OFT's statement is their view of the principles they think credit card issuers should follow. Ultimately, it is only a court that can decide whether a term is unfair in legal terms.

 

As you will know, the OFT recommended that these charges be cut to £12 and we have made a commercial decision to do this with effect from 29th June 2006, even though we do not agree with the OFT's interpretation of the law.

 

The OFT made no recommendation about previous charges and we do not plan to make any alteration to charges we made in the past. As a result we are not in a position to offer you a refund.

 

I do hope you now understand why our charging policy is fair, and how you will be able to avoid these charges in future. You do not need to reply to this letter unless there is anything else I can do to help you. If you want to contact us again about this please do so by 14 September. If we cannot agree on a solution at that point, I can help you refer your complaint to the Financial Ombudsman Service for independent arbitration.

 

Yours sincerely

 

Laura Pearson

Service Recovery

Senior Concerns Officer

ROTFLMFAO - what appalling grammar & punctuation in their attempt to make me feel like a scolded schoolboy

Tick, tick, tick, Ms Pearson, time ticketh away.....

Cheers

Michael

Received the following letter:

Dear {mcuth}

 

Thank you for your letter dated 13 July 2006. I am sorry to hear that you have not been happy with our response to date.

 

Unfortunately there is little I am able to add to our letter dated 5 July 2006 as we have outlined the bank's position on the points you have raised, although I do respect your opinion about our charges.

 

This letter is the bank's final response, which means that if you remain dissatisfied you may refer your complaint to the Financial Ombudsman Service. If you decide to pursue your complaint through the Financial Ombudsman Service you must do so within 6 months from the date of this letter. Their details are as follows:

 

Write to: Financial Ombudsman Service

South Quay Plaza

183 Marsh Wall

London

E14 9SR

 

Telephone: 0845 080 1800

 

E-Mail: [email protected]

 

Website: Financial Ombudsman Service

 

Yours sincerely

 

Jamie O'Neill

Assistant Manager

Cool - that's another N1 to type up, print out & ready for issue on 31st July :grin:

Cheers

Michael

Claim to be taken to Swindon County Court today - with interest/court fees, the amount has gone up to £354.66 from £269.00

Will PM a mod when the claim is issued...

Cheers

Michael

Case no: 6SN02738

Swindon County Court

Value: £354.66 (£269 + £35.66 interest + £50 fee)

Issue: 31st July 2006

Deemed to be served: 5th August 2006

Cheers

Michael

Thanks for letting us know it has now been entered in 'litigation in progress' can you please PM a moderator at each stage now

Received the following from Swindon County Court today:

Acknowledgement of Service filed on 09/08/06 - intention to defend all of the claim. Defendant has until 2nd September to file defence.

Cheers

Michael

Puzzled - received the following from Swindon County Court today:

Acknowledgement of Service filed on 11/08/06 - intention to defend all of the claim.

Defendant has until 2nd September to file defence.

So they've acknowledged it twice? Strange people...

Cheers

Michael

Have you phoned the court to point this out ?

Have you phoned the court to point this out ?

Nope, not yet - didn't think it made a lot of difference - after all, they'll still have until 2nd Sept to file the defence...

Cheers

Michael

Received an Allocation Questionnaire along with a copy of LLoyds' defence today. Defence is:

1. The Defendant Lloyds TSB Bank plc ("the Bank") is a Bank whose registered office is 25 Gresham Street, London, EC2V 7HN. It is admitted that the Claimant has been a customer of the Bank at all material times.

 

2. By opening an account with the Bank, the customer enters into a commercial arrangement with the Bank for the provision of banking services. The Bank is entitled, as part of that arrangement, to charge for those services. At account opening a customer is provided with details of the Bank's charges, currently in a leaflet a guide to our banking charges. By using the account, the customer acknowledges that the charges are incorporated into the contract. For personal customers, a number of services are provided for free, notwithstanding that they are an expense to the Bank. Such services presently include, but are not limited to, providing:

• cheques
  
• bank statements
  
• the facility to make payments by direct debit and standing order
  
• debit cards
  
• ATMs (cash machines).

3. By maintaing the account in credit, or within any limit agreed with the Bank, the customer may avoid most if not all charges. If the customer fails to ensure that there are sufficient cleared funds in the account to cover payments, whether by cheque, debit card, standing order or direct debit, the customer makes a request for a payment to be made from the Bank's own funds. If the Bank makes payment, or returns the payment, it provides a service as specified in the leaflet and makes a charge in accordance with the terms of the contract. On page 1 of the leaflet, the Bank explans that "there are normally no charges for everyday banking at Lloyds TSB when your accout is in credit.

 

When you use an agreed overdraft, there is no monthly fee and we only charge interest on the amount you are overdrawn each day. Where you go overdrawn without an agreement or where you use special services, such as copy statements, we will make a charge. This guide explains how these charges work, and when they will apply.

 

If you want to use a service that we haven't listed, we'll tell you the cost of that service before you give us the go-ahead".

 

4. There is no breach of contract; the charge cannot therefore be a penalty, consequently there is no requirement that the charge be a pre-estimate of the Bank's loss.

 

5. The customer is given advance warning of charges being imposed; statements show the charges, if any, the customer has incurred during the course of a month, and which will appear as debits on the following month's statement. Customers are warned by letter when they go overdrawn or over their agreed limit without arrangement with the Bank. If the customer fails to remedy the position, and payments such as standing orders and direct debits are refused then again the customer is warned by letter.

 

6. The charges are fair and resonable, and it is denied that they are unlawful.

 

7. The customer is notified of the charges in plain intelligible language at the conclusion of the contract, and on each monthly statement. The charge [sic] are terms which relate to the price payable by the customer for a service provided by the Bank, and pursuant to Regulation 6 of the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999, are not subject to the assessment of fairness.

 

8. In the premises:

8.1 the charges are for banking services, and are not damages nor a penalty;

8.2 the Bank is entitled by contract to impose the charges, which are fair and reasonable;

8.3 it is denied that the charges are unlawful or contravene any statute or regulation.

 

9. The Claimant's claim is denied in its entirety. It is further denied that the Claimant is entitled to the sum claimed or to any sum from the Bank.

 

Statement of Truth

The Defendant believes that the facts stated in this Defence are true. I am duly authorised by the Defendant to sign this statement.

 

Signed

Sean Copping - Recoveries Manager for the Defendant, namely Lloyds TSB Bank plc.

Interesting - not one mention of the credit card account/terms that I included in this claim..... Oh well, off to return the AQ - as I'm on holiday from tomorrow til Mon 18th, I'll deal with the reply to the defence when I get back or when the judge orders....

Cheers

Michael